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Zeitgueist posted:Stabbychat: Do you think that separating tournaments by gender is an appropriate thing to do in fencing? What about a woman's tournament and a unisex tournament both as an option? semihippie posted:Epee Fencer checking in. Why Epee? You have a longer competitive shelf life. Foil is dominated by very tiny 14 year olds. Saber is too crazy pants. There are older epee fencers who are still competitive at the national levels. rope kid fucked around with this message at 09:13 on Jan 19, 2015 |
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Jan 19, 2015 09:10
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Women's épée wasn't in the Olympics until 96 and women's saber didn't start until 2004. This was also reflected in events worldwide. The U.S. having women's sabre in the 90s was considered early adoption and is arguably why they've done so well internationally.
Neon Belly fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Jan 19, 2015 |
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Jan 19, 2015 16:45
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I've been a relatively competitive fencer for longer than I care to say, and I've been teaching part-time for a few years. If there's any interest in the professional and/or high level competition side of things, I can tell answer quesions and tell some stories about the world of fencing. I have also personally used almost every single kind of epee blade and most major brands of equipment on the market, so I can answer questions about gear as well. Edit: Every intro class I give has one guy who is way too into the "swordfighting" side of things. I can usually identify this guy by just picking out the fattest person, but I've been wrong about that before. This person will typically do one or more of the following: 1. Interrupt the class with a description of d&d rules. 2. Ask when we get to dual wield. 3. Ask who would win in a fight between a fencer and a... 4. Spaz out during a drill and completely disregard instructions to re-enact star wars. 5. Say "whoosh!", "ting!" or otherwise verbalize what they are doing. Once I have identified that guy, I can expect them to do something inherently unsafe I specifically told them not to do by the time the intro class ends. They may or may not cry when I yell at them for it. They (almost) never sign up for the next level. I also spent some time learning, competing, and teaching the historical side of things, but not so much these days. If anyone is interested with that community, I can explain the major differences between it and sport fencing, and why sport fencing was my personal preference in the long run. Rent-A-Cop posted:For someone who is more familiar with Hollywood sword fights its amazing how short and undramatic both HEMA and fencing bouts are. Both seem to end roughly half a second after the participants are in range of each other. This is something that comes up a lot in classes, and I like to point out the difference between MMA and hollywood fistfights. If you want longer fights, watch some epee matches on youtube. Rules for most forms of fencing tend to favor the attacker (see previous discussion on right of way), but in epee the ruleset tends to encourage drawing and reacting to an attack. The downside to watching epee is that even to a trained eye once something does happen it all goes too fast to appreciate everything going on. Most of the fight is positioning for an advantage. ScratchAndSniff fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Jan 19, 2015 |
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Jan 19, 2015 20:27
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What does it take to be a truly great fencer?
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Jan 19, 2015 21:59
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ScratchAndSniff posted:I've been a relatively competitive fencer for longer than I care to say, and I've been teaching part-time for a few years. If there's any interest in the professional and/or high level competition side of things, I can tell answer quesions and tell some stories about the world of fencing. Trying to score hits on their first ever partner distance drill with no weapons Wearing jeans to training
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Jan 19, 2015 22:03
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EmmyOk posted:Trying to score hits on their first ever partner distance drill with no weapons People who try to "win" drills are fun. And by fun, I mean a pain. vvvv Yeah I've had numerous times where I couldn't get a counter drill to work and it turns out one of us being a lovely attacker Zeitgueist fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Jan 19, 2015 |
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Jan 19, 2015 22:10
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My biggest gripe is when practicing counter attacks and the partner doesn't really attack. After a couple of those 'attacks', I usually just lower my guard and let them hit the air in front of me, which usually gets the point across. Yes, seniors will often not complete the attack in order to let more inexperienced people have a chance at completing the counter, but if you are practicing with any one near (or above) your own level, you need to attack properly. Otherwise the exercise is pointless.
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Jan 19, 2015 22:20
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Above Our Own posted:What does it take to be a truly great fencer? Some combination of: 1. Live near a high-level competitive club. Train there 10+ hours a week, and add in time for extra conditioning like cardio and targeted weightlifting as needed. 2. Pay for regular private lessons from a coach who knows what he is doing. 3. Frequently travel to tournaments. 4. Get started early in life. 5. Have a natural combination of fast reflexes, a tall, athletic body, and a dedication bordering on autism. Lots of fencers have 1-4 and are terrible. A few have only 5 and do pretty well. This is why most top fencers come from rich families. You can still get to be "pretty good" without these advantages, of course, and I think that is a much more reasonable goal.
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Jan 19, 2015 22:41
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ImplicitAssembler posted:My biggest gripe is when practicing counter attacks and the partner doesn't really attack. After a couple of those 'attacks', I usually just lower my guard and let them hit the air in front of me, which usually gets the point across. This is the hardest part of teaching: making them attack hard enough to force a parry, but not in a "Screw the drill, I'm going to try to hit you!" way. I find that slowing everything down tends to help with that, along with lots of more active drilling to reduce the overeager students' energy.
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Jan 19, 2015 22:48
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ImplicitAssembler posted:My biggest gripe is when practicing counter attacks and the partner doesn't really attack. After a couple of those 'attacks', I usually just lower my guard and let them hit the air in front of me, which usually gets the point across. We call that "keeping things honest". A drill doesn't work if you're attacking someone out of distance or off target, or if you're not applying pressure in a specific way. I do the same thing you do, especially when I'm working with noobs. If I see they're attacking out of distance and there's no reason for me to engage their weapon, I just let them throw a strike that inevitably misses. They usually get the message. This is a good thing to do in any drill-based exercise, just let yourself get hit randomly from time to time, or purposefully miss a step and if your partner continues the sequence anyway, punish them for it. Just a word of advice for potentially new fencers, it's also a good idea to not get into a rhythm when doing drills. Change distances, take pauses, anything that messes with the tempo of the drill. This way you're still technically doing what you're supposed to be doing, but you're making it more dynamic and you're not prematurely doing movements based off a rhythm.
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Jan 19, 2015 22:51
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Zeitgueist posted:Where in SoCal are you, and what are you looking for? Northern orange County. I don't really know what I'm looking for. What's the easiest to do if I want to go to a class let's say, once a week at most? Do I need to dedicate more time than that?
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Jan 19, 2015 23:25
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Stolennosferatu posted:Northern orange County. I don't really know what I'm looking for. What's the easiest to do if I want to go to a class let's say, once a week at most? I can't recommend any particular clubs in the area, but most will let you watch or participate in a class before you join. I would recommend making a few phone calls, visiting some spots, and seeing what places catch your eye. 1 time a week is pretty normal for beginners.
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Jan 19, 2015 23:37
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Stolennosferatu posted:Northern orange County. I don't really know what I'm looking for. What's the easiest to do if I want to go to a class let's say, once a week at most? Somebody else in the thread would be more qualified to discuss the differences between modern sport fencing and historical fencing, in regards to rapier fencing. As for a longsword or other weapons with no Olympic amateur analogue, you're pretty much only looking at historical groups. I'm not familiar with modern sport fencing clubs but I have no doubt there are several good options in OC. I'm going tolink the main page for the HEMA club finder for the threads benefit, but scroll down there is a western North America specific one. Orange Counter is a good situation, there's alike 2/3 clubs in SD, and a good 5 or 6 in LA, and one of the biggest is in Orange County, which is Kron Martial Arts. Kron is the group that runs a lot of the events in SoCal, like SoCal Swordfight which is probably the biggest(by attendance) historical swordfighting event in the US. They are also very inexpensive, and last I checked they held a once a week practice on the CalState Fullerton campus. They have a very large membership as well, which is good and not necessarily common in the hobby. They do a ton of German longsword, but have some folks doing all sorts of things including rapier, wrestling and dagger fighting and even sickle. There's also Tattershall School of Defense, which is a bit more expensive and runs several structured class sessions throughout the year, and tends do both historical rapier and historical sidesword/longsword in each session, occasionally doing other forms of historical combat as well. They are in Long Beach. You can also look into the SCA, who do a bunch of historical rapier combat as well. However, they also are into dressing up in historical garb and doing all sort of other stuff that has noting to do with historical combat at all, so that may or may not be your cup of tea. They are free to practice with, though, and have a practice in Huntington Beach last I checked. There's also Chivalry Today, which is an organization that does historical education and demonstrations in San Diego and the surrounding area, but who also offer classes(paid) in historical swordsmanship. All of the above have some crossover with each other, the community is still pretty small compared to a lot of other hobbies. Also yeah, 1 class week is pretty standard, but keep in mind it's like anything else, if you don't practice outside of class you will progress much more slowly.
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Jan 19, 2015 23:45
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Stolennosferatu posted:Northern orange County. I don't really know what I'm looking for. What's the easiest to do if I want to go to a class let's say, once a week at most? I'm in the opposite side of the country, but I can point you to the local US Fencing (Olympic fencing's NGB) division to find clubs close to you. There's the Orange Coast Division covering Orange County. From looking through them, most seem reasonable and of a decent enough quality. The only one I can vouch for is Salle D'Asaro for sabre, because I recognize Coach D'Asaro from national events.
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Jan 20, 2015 00:25
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South Coast Fencing (near South Coast Plaza/edge of Costa Mesa/Fountain Valley/Santa Ana) is a great club for sport fencing. I fenced there on and off for about two years. http://www.southcoastfencing.com/ Edit: I believe that center is also used by the HEMA South Coast group.
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Jan 20, 2015 01:46
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ScratchAndSniff posted:I've been a relatively competitive fencer for longer than I care to say, and I've been teaching part-time for a few years. If there's any interest in the professional and/or high level competition side of things, I can tell answer quesions and tell some stories about the world of fencing. quote:I have also personally used almost every single kind of epee blade and most major brands of equipment on the market, so I can answer questions about gear as well. quote:Once I have identified that guy, I can expect them to do something inherently unsafe I specifically told them not to do by the time the intro class ends. They may or may not cry when I yell at them for it. They (almost) never sign up for the next level. quote:I also spent some time learning, competing, and teaching the historical side of things, but not so much these days. If anyone is interested with that community, I can explain the major differences between it and sport fencing, and why sport fencing was my personal preference in the long run.
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Jan 20, 2015 01:51
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I used to fence epee a little bit in the early '00s, but never got really good at it and only kept with things for about a year or so. A big problem for me was keeping the blade level--from my perspective, "level" turned out to mean that I was holding it at a bit of a downward angle; consequently I was constantly getting tagged on the sleeve. I did manage to disarm somebody once, however, which was pretty nice. 
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Jan 20, 2015 05:17
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Crazy Achmed posted:Sure, I'd love to hear any stories you have! I started too late and don't train anywhere near enough to compete, but I'm curious as to what goes on at those levels. The SR-71 is a great blade, but I'm not convinced it is worth the price. It is definitely similar to the BFs in terms of balance and weight, but it has the advantage of not breaking like glass. If you like stiff I would avoid them. I have broken 2 so far, each after approx. 8-12 months of fencing. For reference, that is longer than most blades last for me. The downside is that they both got really whippy as they got older, and while that's something almost any blade will do, leon paul blades tend to bend laterally as they get older, which makes it hard to do proper opposition parries if the other guy hulks through. I assume your friends' blades are older. Are you referring to the StM blade? In my opinion, they are great blades for the money, and the stiffness tends to soften up as you use them. I have gotten some wild flicks with them, and they tend to gain more vertical flexibity rather than horizontal, so I can still opposition parry. They are definitely solid blades, and their FIE version is just a bit stiffer but with similar balance. They break pretty easily, though. My main beef with historical is that the community is so fragmented that every region, tournament, school, etc. will have its own set of rules, and "referees" use pretty subjective ways to determine who won a bout. Their weapons can hurt, and while people typically wear more padding, competitions sometimes have rules against hitting "too hard" (which is as subjective as it sounds). Someone once explained to me that the goal is to learn about the history rather than prove who is better than who, which I can understand, but in practice it made my historical competitions feel even more "gamey" than sport tournaments. No offense intended to you historical guys. I really respect what you are trying to accomplish. Not that sport competitions are perfect, as they have their share of bullshit. I'll get one or two stories about them down tomorrow. ScratchAndSniff fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Jan 20, 2015 |
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Jan 20, 2015 06:05
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Well, card-able "Brutality" often seems pretty subjective in sport fencing, especially at the lower levels where competence/control is generally low.
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Jan 20, 2015 07:06
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rope kid posted:Well, card-able "Brutality" often seems pretty subjective in sport fencing, especially at the lower levels where competence/control is generally low. Including how a blow with the guard is "Brutality."  Subjectivity is involving in all refereeing, from foil to baseball. Just be careful about telling epeeists, some of them can't handle that. The trick is to make it so that you can align yourself with what others are, mostly, doing.
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Jan 20, 2015 10:33
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BirdOfPlay posted:Including how a blow with the guard is "Brutality." Point taken. I guess I'm just spoiled by the electric machines. I kind of sounded like I was putting down historical fencing in my original post, which wasn't my intention at all. I was just explaining my perceptions on how they establish priority. ScratchAndSniff fucked around with this message at 13:23 on Jan 20, 2015 |
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Jan 20, 2015 12:22
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EmmyOk posted:Trying to score hits on their first ever partner distance drill with no weapons What's wrong with wearing jeans to training? I was taught to wear jeans at the beginner levels of fencing, when somebody might poke you in the leg with a foil. They don't get a point from it, but they will still stab you in the leg, because they are new at this. Unless you're wearing skinny Jeans that restrict your movements, or saggy jeans, properly sized Jeans are actually the easiest mainstream purchase to make to get into fencing. All you have to do is buy a pair of pants that fit you. thrakkorzog fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Jan 20, 2015 |
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Jan 20, 2015 13:39
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Q!= edit
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Jan 20, 2015 14:05
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thrakkorzog posted:What's wrong with wearing jeans to training? Warm up pants cost $10 and you don't look silly wearing them while doing an Olympic sport.
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Jan 20, 2015 17:42
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ScratchAndSniff posted:Point taken. I guess I'm just spoiled by the electric machines. What makes you think I'm talking about historical fencing? The box doesn't automatically make epee a pure, objective sport. The brutality thing was a joke at local-only refs and how popular misconceptions can be. As in, I remember being told brutality including things like blow with bell guard. Well, this is patently false as blow with bell is a Group 2, simple red card, and brutality is a Group 4, an automatic black card.
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Jan 20, 2015 18:07
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ScratchAndSniff posted:This person will typically do one or more of the following: Our beginner classes are structured in such a way that it usually weeds out the crazies (at least the offensive crazies). No blade-on-blade contact until intermediate classes is the biggest part, and you're only allowed to take intermediate classes once you've finished the three beginner classes, but sometimes we get some smug guy who has watched too many movies and thinks fighting with a sword is easy. I beat one up once after he kept hitting a noob way too hard with a padded sword, and he never came back.
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Jan 20, 2015 18:21
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BirdOfPlay posted:What makes you think I'm talking about historical fencing? The box doesn't automatically make epee a pure, objective sport. I agree with you, and I wasn't trying to claim epee is perfect. I was just mentioning how the box spoiled me a bit before I got into the historical side of things. ScratchAndSniff fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Jan 20, 2015 |
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Jan 20, 2015 18:32
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ScratchAndSniff posted:2. Ask when we get to dual wield. They should know that only comes at higher levels. 
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Jan 20, 2015 18:35
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Zeitgueist posted:They should know that only comes at higher levels. I know you're joking, but in a lot of rapier treatises they actually say you should only learn rapier + dagger after mastering the single rapier. So it's /basically/ like being high level.
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Jan 20, 2015 18:43
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Verisimilidude posted:I know you're joking, but in a lot of rapier treatises they actually say you should only learn rapier + dagger after mastering the single rapier. So it's /basically/ like being high level. Nicoletto Giganti has some fairly elaborate rapier/dagger drills towards the end of the book.
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Jan 20, 2015 19:23
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I've always loved the idea of fencing, but I've never tried. Thanks to this thread, I discovered that there is a local fencing club! I think I want to go sign up for their next set of intro classes. I'm kind of concerned about the fact that I'm a really short guy (5'5") and about 20lbs overweight. I want to make sure I'm not just throwing money away as I'm hardly the ideal physical specimen for the sport. Still, I just want something active to do once or twice a week to help drop that last excess 20lbs, and I hate running.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:32
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ConfusedUs posted:I've always loved the idea of fencing, but I've never tried. Thanks to this thread, I discovered that there is a local fencing club! Everyone can't be a fencing master, but if you dedicate yourself to it and set short and long term goals you'll be great at it regardless. If anything, let it be a motivation to lose that extra weight on your own as well as in the school.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:44
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ConfusedUs posted:I've always loved the idea of fencing, but I've never tried. Thanks to this thread, I discovered that there is a local fencing club! Congrats! Being short is a bit frustrating at the beginning before you can close distance quickly, but if you stick with it you will be fine. 20 lbs overweight is no big deal either.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:53
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You probably won't be making the Olympics any time soon, but really, that's the worst reason not to try something cool. I'd say aside from body shape, pretty much everything you need in fencing you can work on. Poor reflexes get faster, coordination improves and your sense for spacing becomes sharper just by practicing diligently. You'll probably lose some of those pounds too. Just make sure the club's a respectable one that offers a free introductory session. I hear there are places that don't, and you probably shouldn't go to those.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:57
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Thanks for the encouraging words everyone!Siivola posted:Just make sure the club's a respectable one that offers a free introductory session. I hear there are places that don't, and you probably shouldn't go to those. Hey, that's a good point. What should I look for, and what should I avoid? I'm fairly starved for choice here in Tulsa, OK, so beggars/choosers/etc.
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Jan 20, 2015 21:09
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I've been very lucky that all the various martial arts clubs I've been to have been super chill and nice, so I don't really know any "avoid at all costs" signs. If the first time's free, just go and give it a shot. I guess number one thing is, you should feel safe practicing. Some nervousness is natural, but the club should be some safety precautions and rules of conduct and stuff. Number two is that you should feel comfortable asking questions, especially from the head instructor. Third, I dunno, I personally don't think it's really fair to ask newcomers to invest in a lot of equipment, so I hope the club's got spare gear for you to use. Besides those, just trust your gut. You're going there to have fun, after all.
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Jan 20, 2015 21:44
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I have had good luck with clubs, but at one point I taught in what I believe is the Worst Club in America. It had a bunch of warning signs I stupidly ignored for too long, since they were paying me. Make sure you run away if you see: People fencing without masks An on-site equipment store which the coach requires students to shop from, exclusively. Clearly damaged or nonexistent rental equipment. (I can give more details/stories if anyone wants.) That being said, don't worry if you see a bit of quirkiness, such as: Lots of Russians. The facility is in a strange place (community center, above a gym, or a seemingly abandoned warehouse) The coach offers "private lessons". It isn't as creepy as it sounds. Separate "club/floor fees" along with "lesson fees". This is a pretty standard practice, since some people just want to fence but don't take group classes.
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Jan 20, 2015 21:48
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ScratchAndSniff posted:The facility is in a strange place (community center, above a gym, or a seemingly abandoned warehouse) It's seriously the coolest club I've gone to thus far.
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Jan 20, 2015 22:03
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Siivola posted:The first lesson at the School of European Swordsmanship in Helsinki is finding the bloody place. The salle's above a shady-looking car repair shop in the rear end-end of Helsinki, and the entrance is hidden behind the building, marked only with a tiny, faded sticker. That sounds awesome. The best clubs are the hardest to find.
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Jan 20, 2015 22:04
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ScratchAndSniff posted:I have had good luck with clubs, but at one point I taught in what I believe is the Worst Club in America. It had a bunch of warning signs I stupidly ignored for too long, since they were paying me. Make sure you run away if you see:  Even the more broke-rear end student clubs I've been to have had decent, safe spare gear for beginners to use, free of charge, so hopefully equipment won't be an issue. I'm pretty short myself, but it's not usually much of a problem, surprisingly. In priority weapons (foil, sabre) it's a matter of seeing a counterattack coming and taking your opponent's blade, pushing it out of the way as you close distance for the hit. In epee, just remember that everyone's blade is the same length, so even lanky people are as vulnerable to getting hit in the hand or arm as the rest of us) [Edit]I have tried fencing with two sabres once, and having that sort of speed and coordination is very bloody hard. The dominant tactic ended up being having one hand dedicated to defence/sweeping your opponent's blades away, and the other for attacking only. Crazy Achmed fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Jan 21, 2015 |
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Jan 21, 2015 01:45
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