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No Safe Word posted:You could just follow up and ask for an estimate on a response. Yeah, I probably will. It's nearing the end of day 2 so I guess I'll drop him a line tomorrow. Thanks for the tips guys. e: Looks like there's no need to email. He emailed me accepting my conditions, well except one. Three weeks vacation for a fresh grad is pretty good, right? Acer Pilot fucked around with this message at 11:46 on Jan 22, 2015 |
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Jan 22, 2015 00:26
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Signed offer for new job starting in two weeks! While technically I'm not a newbie (been a software engineer for 3 1/2 years professionally), this thread was still pretty helpful with some insight as I went through the interviewing process. If anyone has any questions about interviewing with startups, specifically in NYC, let me know and I'd love to share my experiences.
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Jan 22, 2015 22:35
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trip9 posted:A question though, at what point should I be actively avoiding "junior dev" positions? I certainly still feel like a junior dev, but I've been working software dev jobs for 2 1/2 years now and I don't want to hamstring my professional development. I guess as long as the pay is good (read: better than what I get now) it's not really a big deal to me, but I don't want it coming to bite me in the rear end later on. There's no concrete definition for what counts as junior vs senior vs whatever so I wouldn't worry about it too much. If a job seems interesting and pays what you want the title shouldn't be a deal breaker.
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Jan 22, 2015 23:00
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EAT THE EGGS RICOLA posted:I am on a one year contract with a possible renewal which has the amount for the second year already defined in it, so if I stay then I'm locked in, but if it didn't say anything ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I looked and my rate is locked for the first year. :< But it can change after that at least. Maybe I'll get to convert to FTE by then, who knows.
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Jan 22, 2015 23:40
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This seems kind of basic, but do you guys have recommendations on places to do job searching (besides the obvious "use your contacts if you can")? I'm getting kind of tired of bait-and-switch tactics, pressure "selling" you on jobs, and so on. Also, is my assumption that pursuing CS masters and that sort of thing is not really a wise move if you're already employed as a Software Engineer correct? RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Jan 23, 2015 |
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Jan 23, 2015 03:37
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Speaking of getting a Masters in CS, while currently it seems the advice is to spend the two years in industry instead if academia getting one, does anyone believe it would be wise to pursue one in the next few years to stand up against bachelor holders in the future? I only ask because I got knocked out of the running for the undergrad CS program at University of Texas Austin because of overcrowding, I'm guessing.
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Jan 23, 2015 03:56
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plumper fuckbus posted:Speaking of getting a Masters in CS, while currently it seems the advice is to spend the two years in industry instead if academia getting one, does anyone believe it would be wise to pursue one in the next few years to stand up against bachelor holders in the future? So long as you're not paying for it, with loans or otherwise, it's not a terrible idea. It's only really worth considering if you a. Work for a company that will pay for it and you don't mind the extra work of juggling classes and a full-time job, or b. Plan to work in academia and can get a research assistantship; in which case you should absolutely be on a PhD track to boot, and you can basically throw out doing your master's by coursework. On the other hand, you won't need more than a B.S to get a job as a developer. For that matter there are plenty of high school grads who manage to find jobs just as well. In this field, your skills absolutely mean more than the pieces of paper you hold.
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Jan 23, 2015 04:30
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plumper fuckbus posted:Speaking of getting a Masters in CS, while currently it seems the advice is to spend the two years in industry instead if academia getting one, does anyone believe it would be wise to pursue one in the next few years to stand up against bachelor holders in the future? I can't foresee a future in which a master's degree is as desired, let alone more desired, than a handful of years of actual industry experience for your typical software job. I would expect this to be the case in most fields, but even more so in software.
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Jan 23, 2015 04:31
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I don't think you have to worry about standing out in the sea of devs with bachelor's degrees, seems like companies are in need of competent developers.
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Jan 23, 2015 04:37
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I'm employed now. Thanks thread!
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Jan 23, 2015 05:24
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RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS posted:Also, is my assumption that pursuing CS masters and that sort of thing is not really a wise move if you're already employed as a Software Engineer correct? That said, my company paid for it.
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Jan 23, 2015 05:25
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JawnV6 posted:I took some graduate courses after being employed. I found that working for real gave me a much better picture of what I needed to know, let me pick classes and focus on the material I knew I would need. Oh, yeah. I have a BA in Japanese, I should say.
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Jan 23, 2015 05:30
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Doghouse posted:A friend of mine, who is in his late thirties, is looking to get into programming. He had zero background, so he went to this neat looking program in St. Louis called Launchcode where they take people with some, limited background, pair them up with companies that give them a paid apprenticeship and then hire them full time afterwards. They say they have a 90% success rate and they get them into great companies from what i can tell. But anyway he had zero experience so they recommended Harvard's online EdX course CS50x. He got a good part of the way through it but hit a wall and wasn't able to finish, and got discouraged. To me, that class looks darn hard for someone with no background, and he is a smart guy so I think he just needs something that is a bit of a different pace that he could ease into a bit more. He has several children, a job and a working wife so he can't really do a college thing at this point. xpander posted:I think this depends on the language somewhat. For example, I was approached about a great Rails job last year and wanted to check it out, so I bought Michael Hartl's Rails Tutorial book. I blasted through it because I was familiar with a lot of the general concepts already, but I think it was well done overall and would recommend it for learning Rails. Some resources are better than others when it comes to a specific language/framework/task. Web dev is going to be different than systems programming, which is going to be different than embedded. Codeacademy is a pretty decent onramp for someone with no experience, to learn some simple concepts and apply them to web-facing technologies for some instant gratification. He's out of town for a couple days, and I'll talk to him when he gets back, but my feeling now is that it might be very worthwhile to use a language that I know, so I could really help him out. That Ruby books looks good, and I am learning Ruby now. I do know C# and Java a lot better, though - does anyone know of any good textbooks or sites with good projects/exercises to do in those languages?
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Jan 23, 2015 17:12
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https://www.hackerrank.com supports a bunch of languages.
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Jan 23, 2015 18:06
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Pollyanna posted:I'm really glad to hear all of this. I don't feel as worried about the position as I did before, so I don't think I have any more reservations on going forward with this. I'll send an email to ask for another meeting or phone call to discuss more details on the position (what are my responsibilities, what projects will I work on, what is my workflow, etc.). Also, I still need to answer the question of salary, and I think that will depend on what benefits I get - I do want to check up on what Che said about them trying to lowball me. I have a walkaway number of $65k, which means that if it's lower than 65k salary, I'm walking. This might seem obnoxious or conceited but I really don't want to be undervalued, and Jr. Devs go for $70k-$80k 'round Boston.
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Jan 23, 2015 23:56
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Doghouse posted:He's out of town for a couple days, and I'll talk to him when he gets back, but my feeling now is that it might be very worthwhile to use a language that I know, so I could really help him out. That Ruby books looks good, and I am learning Ruby now. I do know C# and Java a lot better, though - does anyone know of any good textbooks or sites with good projects/exercises to do in those languages? Unfortunately the last time I used Java was 1st year uni, so I can't speak to that. And I've fooled around in C# a bit but mostly the same story. If you're going to help him out, I agree that it's worthwhile using a language you know. If he's in it for the long haul(or has a true driving interest in the field) then learning more than one language is probably a given anyway. Good on you for helping him. 
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Jan 24, 2015 01:49
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I'm going to be graduating in the next couple of years with a PhD in Biomedical Engineering (similar undergrad degree). I was wondering if what sort of job opportunities (in a programming type of setting, think Microsoft/Amazon, etc [wife might want to move back to Seattle]) might be available for someone with my background? Brief Background: I am pretty good at practical scripting (I write a lot of scripts/functions in MATLAB), but it has been a while since I used Java (only took intro classes in undergrad). My current belief is that it would be good to develop a more robust background/portfolio in Java before I graduate, is this a good line of thought? Thanks!
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Jan 24, 2015 03:17
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Yes, if you would like a programming job learning to program would be a good first step.
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Jan 24, 2015 03:42
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What exactly constitutes programming? At what point do I know how to program? I've made text-to-speech programs, and curve-fitting tools for my lab? Is this considered programming? What about random gadgets in Java? Its somewhat hard to tell from my perspective. Some people would think what I do is programming, others not so much. Also, expectations may vary depending on what sort of project I work on. I don't have any sort of perspective here, and was hoping to gain some. Hope this helps.
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Jan 24, 2015 04:10
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themutt22 posted:What exactly constitutes programming? At what point do I know how to program? Are you writing code in a programming language, no matter how useful the end result is? Congratulations, you're programming!
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Jan 24, 2015 05:24
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themutt22 posted:What exactly constitutes programming? At what point do I know how to program? You might also consider data science. I come from a similar background (grad school in the sciences, good analytical and statistical skills, basic programming knowledge but no formal classes) and I've found my skillset to be more suited for data science than pure engineering.
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Jan 24, 2015 05:29
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triple sulk posted:Are you writing code in a programming language, no matter how useful the end result is? Congratulations, you're programming! That is nice to know. I'm not trying to debate semantics for the sake of debating semantics. I want to know what will be expected of my programming skills. For example, how often do companies hire people with a weaker background in programming, but other strengths. Perhaps an internship first would help? I know that some companies are flirting with human health interfaces (FitBits and what not). Is my skillset (biomedical engineering) desirable? Or would they rather just hire someone who has more coding experience, and have a separate person who is an expert on the clinical/biological side of things. I don't have enough knowledge of what companies are looking for, and I am hoping to find answers here.
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Jan 24, 2015 05:33
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in_cahoots posted:You might also consider data science. I come from a similar background (grad school in the sciences, good analytical and statistical skills, basic programming knowledge but no formal classes) and I've found my skillset to be more suited for data science than pure engineering. Appreciate your input, coming from a similar background intrigues me. If I might ask , how did you transition into the data science field. Any recommended resources?
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Jan 24, 2015 05:36
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themutt22 posted:I'm going to be graduating in the next couple of years with a PhD in Biomedical Engineering (similar undergrad degree).
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Jan 24, 2015 06:02
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themutt22 posted:Appreciate your input, coming from a similar background intrigues me. If I might ask , how did you transition into the data science field. Any recommended resources? I switched a couple of years ago, but I started by brushing up on my C++ (which was entirely useless but I figured it was good to know a 'real' programming language) and learning enough Python to answer the easier questions in Cracking the Coding Interview. I then read through the Wikipedia pages on basic stats (Z/T tests, Bayes theorem, probability) and did some problems from a textbook or two. I watched Andrew Ng's Coursera class on machine learning and started reading The Elements of Statistical Learning Then I was fortunate enough to get into a Data Science boot camp, which was more of the same for 8 weeks. At the end of it I got hired as a Data Scientist and a year later, here I am.
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Jan 24, 2015 08:27
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themutt22 posted:That is nice to know. I'm not trying to debate semantics for the sake of debating semantics. I want to know what will be expected of my programming skills. The problem you might have is that interview questions tend to be very artificial and focus on stuff people learn in CS majors. It's all stuff you can brush up on but you've probably been doing some basic scripting rather than learning fundamentals.
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Jan 24, 2015 16:45
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NovemberMike posted:The problem you might have is that interview questions tend to be very artificial and focus on stuff people learn in CS majors. It's all stuff you can brush up on but you've probably been doing some basic scripting rather than learning fundamentals. There's a limit to how much code you can write on a white board in a half hour, but the employer is still trying to make sure you 1) know the syntax of the language you claimed on your resume and 2) understand enough theory to not do anything algorithmically stupid. Problems that meet both those requirements and can be solved in less time than a Dominos delivery tend to be contrived.
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Jan 24, 2015 17:24
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themutt22 posted:I know that some companies are flirting with human health interfaces (FitBits and what not). Is my skillset (biomedical engineering) desirable? Or would they rather just hire someone who has more coding experience, and have a separate person who is an expert on the clinical/biological side of things. I've never seen any companies that placed any serious value on a skillset outside of software engineering for a software engineering role. If you are already a very strong candidate, you can use "I think biological science is awesome" as a way of explaining why you're especially excited about working at a company that employs biologists.
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Jan 24, 2015 19:35
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Having recently gone through the process of hiring a junior programmer, here are my observations. I don't claim to be a super expert or anything, so take them as one person's opinions after having just sat in the other chair. 1. Send a resume. I made the mistake of not explicitly spelling that out in one of the postings and had people asking what they needed to do. Not a good start. Seriously, this goes for any job. Why would you not send us a resume? Why did I even have to list this point? If I hire you are you going to show a similar lack of common sense on a daily basis? 2. Express interest in some of the tools that we use. Even if you've never heard of them, read the wikipedia entry and tell us which ones sound the most cool to you. You have a degree or programming background. You should think at least some of them are cool. We can't expect you to walk in the door knowing everything our particular constellation of tools. Telling us you think our tools seem cool and that you want the opportunity to work with them means we feel like you are interested in this job and that we are selling you on the job. 3. If I tell you that I don't see much value in coding quiz interviews, and after looking at your resume I ask for some sample code from the things your claim to know how to do and I tell you that I plan to discuss it with you... You should actually be prepared to discuss it. I'm serving both our interests. You don't want to not get the job because I asked a silly gotcha logic puzzle that didn't instantly click for you in the half hour you were nervously sitting in an interview. I don't want to not hire you over something that foolish. If you send me a code sample from something you wrote a year ago and don't remember the details, I'm going to wonder what is wrong with you when I served up the home ground advantage to you on a silver platter. Worse, I might think you copied it from somewhere. Talking about a code sample is your opportunity to preempt any questions about your ability to code, while sticking to only what you know. 4. If I ask for a code sample, don't send me something so simple that it is basically a hello world program. I asked for a code sample and didn't specify exactly what I wanted other than that I would use it to evaluate you as a programmer in lieu of a coding quiz. What am I going to think of you as a programmer when you send me an over glorified hello world program? I'm not going to think that you technically did what I asked for and it is all good. If I tell you the reasoning behind a request and then make a vague request: FIGURE IT OUT. Own the task. Why would I hire you if you can't take initiative to produce a solution to a problem after I just explained the problem to you and gave you free reign. 5. When I criticize your code sample, don't act like I'm personally attacking you, that you are being killed, or that you need to set your degree on fire because you are wooooooorthless. Take a deep breath, remain calm and explain to me why you did it like that, and then tell me how you might adjust the code in light of what I've just said. If you don't understand my point, tell me what you don't understand so I can discuss if further. I don't expect you to know everything and be perfect (because if you are, you shouldn't be applying for a junior programmer position). I expect you to convince me that I can explain concerns to you. If you end the interview, read up on the point I was making, and send me an email in the next few days on the subject: good. If you have my email address, I gave it to you so you can send me emails that will help me decide if I want to hire you or not. I am gathering information about you. Now I know you can learn something. 6. Once I've indicated that I'm no longer interested in technical evaluation: act like you've got the job and talk to me like a co-worker. I'm now trying to see if I can stand you as a co-worker. If two people are basically equally qualified and we've got a good reading on one as a person and we've got a big question mark over the one that seemed like a nervous wreck that is too afraid to say anything but we are not sure... guess who is getting hired? I'm not going to be offended by you addressing me like a co-worker. Just because I've got limited slots forcing me to tell most of you to shove off doesn't mean I hate you or don't want the best for you. The whole process made me feel like a grumpy dad that rides his teenage son's rear end about being a slacker on some sitcom or another. All I want to see is that I can hire you, point you at a problem, and have you take initiative to make reasonable progress on it, and when you run into trouble that you can talk to me about it. Please please please do anything and everything you can think of to show that.
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Jan 25, 2015 08:32
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Cyclomatic posted:4. If I ask for a code sample, don't send me something so simple that it is basically a hello world program. I asked for a code sample and didn't specify exactly what I wanted other than that I would use it to evaluate you as a programmer in lieu of a coding quiz. What am I going to think of you as a programmer when you send me an over glorified hello world program? I'm not going to think that you technically did what I asked for and it is all good. If I tell you the reasoning behind a request and then make a vague request: FIGURE IT OUT. Own the task. Why would I hire you if you can't take initiative to produce a solution to a problem after I just explained the problem to you and gave you free reign. If the request is vague then it's a much better to clarify and make sure you both understand the issue identically. Initiative as in making assumptions is a major source of bugs. So if asked to provide a code sample.... make sure to ask what are they looking for. Initiative? Simplicity? Readability? Whether you can code at all?
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Jan 25, 2015 12:14
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Yeah, it probably wouldn't hurt to say, like, "show me some code you've written that you're proud of," if that's what you want.
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Jan 25, 2015 16:36
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Cyclomatic posted:Having recently gone through the process of hiring a junior programmer, here are my observations. I don't claim to be a super expert or anything, so take them as one person's opinions after having just sat in the other chair. Thanks for this.
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Jan 25, 2015 18:05
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Cyclomatic posted:Having recently gone through the process of hiring a junior programmer, here are my observations. I don't claim to be a super expert or anything, so take them as one person's opinions after having just sat in the other chair. drat you write like someone who is a giant pain in the rear end to deal with. Hint: it's a lot easier to set a problem and ask for a solution. Now you have a level playing field and don't have to deal with homegrown poo poo + you can do it asynchronously. Use some kind of solution similarity checker to prevent cheating e: also remember these are junior hires straight of college of course they are not going to know how to act as a work colleague unless they have a bunch of internships And getting used to code reviews is a practiced art that frankly is hard. poo poo you expect way too much out people straight from education. Malcolm XML fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Jan 25, 2015 |
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Jan 25, 2015 19:37
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Malcolm XML posted:e: also remember these are junior hires straight of college of course they are not going to know how to act as a work colleague unless they have a bunch of internships also who calls their entry level devs "junior programmers" is it still 1970 how are the girls in the steno pit cyclomatic
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Jan 25, 2015 19:55
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Malcolm XML posted:And getting used to code reviews is a practiced art that frankly is hard. poo poo you expect way too much out people straight from education. Some people are innately perfectly fine receiving code reviews while others react like its some kind of personal attack -- and maybe if you wanted not to deal with the latter kind, you could filter them out in the interview process. Which would be dumb of course. Maybe I was just used to arguing on Usenet and forums but when I got my first code reviews at my first job, none of them hurt my feelings. Then another new dev also took them well (but he was a practiced rationalist and a beauty and the geek contestant), and then a dude in his forties didn't do so well. At a later job we had two newb devs that got all butthurt. Some devs just need to get slapped a couple of times a week and others need to get sent back in time to their high school days and get put in the marching band or (as my dad liked to threaten) get sent to Valley Forge Military Academy.
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Jan 25, 2015 20:15
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Code reviews are awesome. I've only been doing this for a few years and it's great to see someone who (hopefully) knows more than me give me constructive criticism. I've learned a ton already and would learn even more if they were standardized at my company. That being said, I really hate that my sub-team does them in person and would much, much rather have them done like one of our other sub-teams with comments on out github pages.
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Jan 25, 2015 21:12
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Malcolm XML posted:drat you write like someone who is a giant pain in the rear end to deal with. In some sense, I'm trying not to be a pain in the rear end to deal with. I'll grant that I can be a bit hyperbolic in my phrasing, put it down to having been in the Army. I enjoy my hyperbole. What I'm suggesting is pretty simple at the end of the day, I think. I didn't set a problem and ask for a solution because I didn't want to expect them to write a different piece code they are proud of for every different job they apply for. A qualified candidate might have looked at that requirement and decided they were busy. I think it is reasonable that having gone through school that they have something they can show, or should think about doing so. We were willing spend the time reading what they submitted. I don't know if your way is better or not. I see pros and cons to each. Fact remains, if I put the ball in your court and ask you to show me what you've got: cut loose and wallop it. I get that these are people straight out of college. It doesn't change the fact that if one is able to relate to us well and the other is a nervous wreck that can't communicate that it isn't good for them. Code reviews are something that are going to happen. If you can weather one reasonably well, then that is good for you. It doesn't change the fact that people are going to be curious about how you react to one. Did the person we hired do all of those things? No. Do we have a big problem with that? No. Would we have tried to hire them first if someone else did all of those things? No. Would someone looking to get hired who expresses interest in the tools, has a confidence inspiring code sample, is prepared to discuss it, shows some initiative, can handle a code review without freaking out, and makes an effort to open up and talk to us be in a better position than someone who doesn't? Yea, I think they likely would. Are any of those things that you would actively discourage someone looking to get hired from at least thinking about? Is auto-rejecting someone because they get butthurt about a code review a good idea? No. Is getting butthurt about a code review a good idea as a candidate? No. Hence the point: it is not to your benefit to get butthurt in a code review. Also, a lot of people don't have any trouble with code reviews. A lot of personalities really enjoy them.
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Jan 25, 2015 21:48
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Good Will Hrunting posted:Code reviews are awesome. I've only been doing this for a few years and it's great to see someone who (hopefully) knows more than me give me constructive criticism. I've learned a ton already and would learn even more if they were standardized at my company. That being said, I really hate that my sub-team does them in person and would much, much rather have them done like one of our other sub-teams with comments on out github pages. Don't underestimate the value of a rubber duck code review. If the culture is there to not nod through it they are quite valuable.
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Jan 25, 2015 23:09
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At the interview for my current job, they gave me a sample piece of code they wrote and asked me to review it with them. I thought that worked out really well. I was able to show how I think through code but there was no worrying about trying to dig up a code sample or write code myself while nervous.FamDav posted:also who calls their entry level devs "junior programmers" is it still 1970 I hear "junior" used all the time for people who have 1-5 years experience, is that weird?
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Jan 26, 2015 00:10
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HondaCivet posted:I hear "junior" used all the time for people who have 1-5 years experience, is that weird? No just spergy goons. Probably have delusions of being an Associate instead like some retail job.
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Jan 26, 2015 00:19
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