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Need to use my income for something before the wife spends it all. And she really hates speakers, so that is a big bonus.
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Jan 26, 2015 18:23
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GTO posted:Has anyone ever looked at who these audiophile types are? It's proportionally no dumber than teens or 20-somethings spending small fortunes on warhammer figurines or whatever. If you have a poo poo ton of disposable income I guess you've gotta spend it on some dumb hobby,
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Jan 26, 2015 18:25
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BigFactory posted:It's proportionally no dumber than teens or 20-somethings spending small fortunes on warhammer figurines or whatever. If you have a poo poo ton of disposable income I guess you've gotta spend it on some dumb hobby, I don't know about that... I mean I don't really know anyone into this bullshit audiophile crap, but my impression is that they actually believe they're getting better quality audio for their money. It's not like they're explicitly going "I know this is dumb, but I've got disposable income and they look neat" or whatever. So, the ridicule-worthy part isn't so much that they're spending so many dollars, but that they believe the bullshit. What would be the equivalent with kids buying warhammer figurines? I'm not sure any of them think they're buying actual characters, they're just collecting something they think is cool. Then again, I don't know anyone who collects warhammer figurines either. Maybe I lead a charmed life.
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Jan 26, 2015 18:32
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Thermopyle posted:I don't know about that... I don't know anyone who plays warhammer either, I'm just thinking that proportionate to total wealth a rich 50 year old guy spending 300 grand on a foolish audio system (or sports cars or part of a yacht) is about the same on the balance sheet as an underemployed 19 year old spending $2500 bucks on his miniatures.
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Jan 26, 2015 18:42
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KozmoNaut posted:If you're a bit handy with wood, and especially with veneers, you can make some really beautiful boxes. For home use, it's probably 90% aesthetics and 10% sound that sells. And of those 10%, it's mostly about the thump-thump. Expensive-looking box + cheap drivers = profit like woah. I REALLY loving hate veneer though, it looks so loving cheap and nasty. I like wood. Real wood. Not MDF with a thin sliver of wood over the top. gently caress that poo poo. :/ This year I'm going to play around with a few designs in acrylic I think, a friend has seen some speakers he likes in clear acrylic but the actual design itself is a bit lacking so I want to have a play and improve that a bit. That shouldn't take too long and then onto some wooooooooooood. And thanks for the tips on Adam/Eve, I'll keep an eye out. Olympic Mathlete fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Jan 26, 2015 |
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Jan 26, 2015 18:56
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88h88 posted:I REALLY loving hate veneer though, it looks so loving cheap and nasty. I like wood. Real wood. Not MDF with a thin sliver of wood over the top. gently caress that poo poo. :/ Doesn't MDF have sonic advantages because the density is uniform? At least it should be easier to design with.
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Jan 26, 2015 19:23
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88h88 posted:I REALLY loving hate veneer though, it looks so loving cheap and nasty. I like wood. Real wood. Not MDF with a thin sliver of wood over the top. gently caress that poo poo. :/ You can get some really high-grade veneers these days, though. But I get your point. Acrylic sounds neat, how about acoustic glass? I seem to remember reading about that a couple of years ago.
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Jan 26, 2015 19:25
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BigFactory posted:Doesn't MDF have sonic advantages because the density is uniform? At least it should be easier to design with. MDF is used because it's cheap as gently caress. It's sawdust and glue. It's barely related to wood as it is. I like using plywood, the top quality birch stuff, it's actually really pretty and I want to make some big folded horn PA subs out of it and put a nice stain on it because as it's wood, it has a grain and takes it really well. I built some PA speakers previously out of it but painted them and I now realise it was a mistake as they would've looked sharp with a stain. That said at that point my woodworking skills probably weren't quite up to scratch to pull it off. I like wood because it's a real material, MDF is just really crappy to build with. It crumbles when struck, absorbs water like a sponge, is heavy in comparison to equivalent sized plywood, isn't as strong as you think it is and is loving carcinogenic so is actually dangerous to use unless you've got a mask and decent filtration while you're cutting it. Anyone selling you on the idea that MDF is a great material is trying to hide the fact they're trying to cheap out on you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVxldyIa0Bg Acoustic glass? I'll do some research. 
Olympic Mathlete fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Jan 26, 2015 |
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Jan 26, 2015 19:46
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I know what MDF is, but isn't the fact that it's denser than plywood (and uniform in its density) an advantage when you're designing a speaker?
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Jan 26, 2015 20:00
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BigFactory posted:I know what MDF is, but isn't the fact that it's denser than plywood (and uniform in its density) an advantage when you're designing a speaker? Plywood is also uniform in density. I suppose you can call a higher density over plywood an advantage if you want to skimp on actually designing a speaker properly. It'll be an advantage if you don't want to think about adding internal bracing to say your sub design. But I'll take internal bracing, lighter weight, strength and all that other stuff over using MDF every single time. In terms of something like sub building, if your design is good then it'll spend its time rattling the room it's in rather than rattling itself all over the room. The designs I've built previously are all 12mm birch ply internally braced, the subs capable of silly loud volumes (120db+ outside measured from 5m) and yet didn't move an inch hitting said loudness.
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Jan 26, 2015 20:20
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There's nothing really wrong with MDF as such. It's got uniform density, it cuts easily and it's inexpensive. Perfect for when you want 100% repeatable results in your manufacturing. We've mostly moved away from the formaldehyde-based binder, but you should obviously still wear a dust mask no matter what. And you can get treated MDF that doesn't absorb water, but if you're routinely exposing your speakers to high levels of moisture, you've got a slightly atypical usage profile, and should adjust your constructions to that. I've built speakers for PA using both particleboard, plywood and MDF. Particleboard obviously sucks unless you use oldschool high-density stuff, but both the MDF speakers and the plywood speakers ended up really nice. The MDF speakers were significantly cheaper much easier to build. I've also built flightcases for equipment, and in that setting, I would never use anything other than plywood. It is stronger, but you really shouldn't be kicking around your speakers in the same way that flightcases are treated, anyway. No matter the material, we always used plenty of internal bracing, strictly speaking we probably used too much, but overkill is the best kill. It's also a matter of resonance, and no matter how much bracing you add, you'll always have flat areas that will move like a drum skin. The only way to really combat this is thickness and density. The current mixing console that my dad's band uses is built from MDF, and that's held up for maybe 7 or 8 years now and a bunch of concerts, no worse for wear apart from a few scuffs here and there. HDF would probably be even better, but I've never used it myself. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Jan 26, 2015 |
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Jan 26, 2015 20:26
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88h88 posted:Plywood is also uniform in density. I suppose you can call a higher density over plywood an advantage if you want to skimp on actually designing a speaker properly. It'll be an advantage if you don't want to think about adding internal bracing to say your sub design. But I'll take internal bracing, lighter weight, strength and all that other stuff over using MDF every single time. In terms of something like sub building, if your design is good then it'll spend its time rattling the room it's in rather than rattling itself all over the room. The designs I've built previously are all 12mm birch ply internally braced, the subs capable of silly loud volumes (120db+ outside measured from 5m) and yet didn't move an inch hitting said loudness. So basically you have to do more work to make plywood work as well as MDF, which is OK if that's what you want, but don't act like you're not making a tradeoff when you choose either.
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Jan 26, 2015 20:28
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Thermopyle posted:So basically you have to do more work to make plywood work as well as MDF, which is OK if that's what you want, but don't act like you're not making a tradeoff when you choose either. Spending 30 minutes cutting a few braces on a particular design isn't really a trade off in my opinion. You can no doubt make a speaker with no bracing out of ply if you wanted to, the designs I've used are braced for lightness but you could definitely go to 18mm ply if you wanted touring grade toughness. If you were to make them out of MDF the only advantage would be they'd be cheaper. In every other respect it's a worse material. I get that some people are cool with it and that's fine but I've used a better material, it's far nicer to work with and that's what I'll be using from now on. My floorstanders are manufactured from MDF and a veneer and it's fine for those but for something I'm making myself I wouldn't use it for all the aforementioned reasons.
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Jan 26, 2015 20:51
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88h88 posted:Spending 30 minutes cutting a few braces on a particular design isn't really a trade off in my opinion. You can no doubt make a speaker with no bracing out of ply if you wanted to, the designs I've used are braced for lightness but you could definitely go to 18mm ply if you wanted touring grade toughness. If you were to make them out of MDF the only advantage would be they'd be cheaper. In every other respect it's a worse material. I get that some people are cool with it and that's fine but I've used a better material, it's far nicer to work with and that's what I'll be using from now on. My floorstanders are manufactured from MDF and a veneer and it's fine for those but for something I'm making myself I wouldn't use it for all the aforementioned reasons. One of the advantages to MDF is how easy to is to cut, join, and finish. It's also far less likely to flex (which means it can be brittle depending on how a load is distributed) which can be and advantag or disadvantage depending on your use. It still requires the same kind of bracing and ribbing as plywood does when building. My father is retired, but still does custom cabinet (including speaker kind) and furniture work. He'll use MDF for cabinets, but it's usually because his customer is looking to save some money on the over-all project once the cost estimations are presented. But he doesn't mind using it and as long as you use a sealer it'll be just as durable as plywood cabinets.
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Jan 26, 2015 21:05
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88h88 posted:Spending 30 minutes cutting a few braces on a particular design isn't really a trade off in my opinion. You can no doubt make a speaker with no bracing out of ply if you wanted to, the designs I've used are braced for lightness but you could definitely go to 18mm ply if you wanted touring grade toughness. If you were to make them out of MDF the only advantage would be they'd be cheaper. In every other respect it's a worse material. I get that some people are cool with it and that's fine but I've used a better material, it's far nicer to work with and that's what I'll be using from now on. My floorstanders are manufactured from MDF and a veneer and it's fine for those but for something I'm making myself I wouldn't use it for all the aforementioned reasons. I've never built a speaker box, but I feel qualified to comment on this because I spent a decade doing finish carpentry for a living and I still do it as a hobby. For painted work MDF has taken over the carpentry industry because its easier to machine, easier to finish, cheaper, better looking, more stable, etc. As with every material choice you're making tradeoffs, but to act as if MDF is the obviously inferior choice is just wrong, wrong, wrong.
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Jan 26, 2015 21:15
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Thermopyle posted:I've never built a speaker box, but I feel qualified to comment on this because I spent a decade doing finish carpentry for a living and I still do it as a hobby. It's inferior for my spec for the reasons listed above, I'm not suggesting you can't use it to put together some speakers as it's evidently possible but for what I need a material to do it's not fit for purpose.
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Jan 26, 2015 21:32
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Shot's fired in the Pono http://www.analogplanet.com/content/gizmodo-wont-post-my-comment-so-im-posting-them-here It really is an astonishing showcase in cognitive dissonance. The comments are even worse. As a bonus: Here's a Pono review from everyone's favorite clumsy gadget reviewer, Linus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VQUFCCcQ4A He thinks it's utter bullshit KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Jan 26, 2015 |
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Jan 26, 2015 23:17
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quote:It's a wonder we survived for tens of thousands of years using our senses not subject to A/B/X testing because only then could we know what we're actually hearing, seeing, smelling and touching. Is that a tiger behind you? Can't say until I perform that tiger A/B/X.  Jesus Christ, no words for this. I hope that idiot doesn't have a job in a remotely scientific field.
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Jan 27, 2015 01:24
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What are the best pair of cheap (under 50 buck) IEM's?
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Jan 27, 2015 01:43
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Knifegrab posted:What are the best pair of cheap (under 50 buck) IEM's? For very cheap (~$15) there's http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007HISSXE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Jan 27, 2015 01:52
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Nintendo Kid posted:For very cheap (~$15) there's http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007HISSXE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 If I could push my budget a tiny bit above 50 would you have a different recommendation or would it still be these?
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Jan 27, 2015 02:02
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"I need some in ear monitors. But where to ask? Headphone thread? Couldn't be. Small questions? Nah. Ridicule audiophiles, yeah, that sounds about right." Not to single you out too much though. You're not the first. And I'm just confused about the confusion. Don't really care otherwise. I have $30 Sennheiser CX300-IIs. Couldn't possibly say whether they're the best per se. They're good. Mixed some music on them even and it didn't come out half bad. I found them harsh at first, but I came from a very dull $5 pair. That either wore off or I got used to it quickly. I like that they come with a pouch to carry them around in.
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Jan 27, 2015 02:07
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Knifegrab posted:If I could push my budget a tiny bit above 50 would you have a different recommendation or would it still be these? Honestly I don't have any good recommendations in that range. You can get really great ones for $90-$120 and you get pretty good ones down around $15, but the middle zone rarely tends to justify the price increases all that much, except when you find sales on IEMs that usually retail $90+.
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Jan 27, 2015 02:10
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Nintendo Kid posted:Honestly I don't have any good recommendations in that range. You can get really great ones for $90-$120 and you get pretty good ones down around $15, but the middle zone rarely tends to justify the price increases all that much, except when you find sales on IEMs that usually retail $90+. Alright, I appreciate the insight, I'll stick to the 15 buck ones for now.
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Jan 27, 2015 02:11
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Knifegrab posted:If I could push my budget a tiny bit above 50 would you have a different recommendation or would it still be these? http://www.amazon.com/Original-Xiao...xiaomi+piston+2 This rules from first hand experience. Combat Pretzel posted:
You gotta love DBT haters and their hilarious arguments against DBTs: 1. Attack the methodology, crappily - DBTs due to inherent real-life limitations is less reliable then their own sighted judgement "because a DBT can't be perfect" 2. Claims an obvious difference in sound with X product, while putting the burden of proof on skeptics who says it's bullshit. I strongly suspect why they hate the idea of blind testing so much is that deep down at some level they know they will be proven wrong conclusively and their worldview will no longer hold water like religious fanatics. Palladium fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Jan 27, 2015 |
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Jan 27, 2015 03:46
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Aww I missed MDF chat. I used to program a CNC machine for a place that made subwoofer enclosures. There are different grades of MDF and the good stuff is really nice to work with. On the flip side the lovely MDF is really lovely. Like the difference from machining a nice aluminum plate verses laminated cardboard or something. Anyway we made some really high end sub boxes, up to 18" drivers and they were all MDF internals with whatever on the outside.
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Jan 27, 2015 03:47
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Flipperwaldt posted:"I need some in ear monitors. But where to ask? Headphone thread? Couldn't be. Small questions? Nah. Ridicule audiophiles, yeah, that sounds about right." To be fair, there's a bit of audiophoolery in there, which is more than enough to drive skeptics away from that thread.
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Jan 27, 2015 04:07
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TomR posted:Aww I missed MDF chat. I used to program a CNC machine for a place that made subwoofer enclosures. There are different grades of MDF and the good stuff is really nice to work with. On the flip side the lovely MDF is really lovely. Like the difference from machining a nice aluminum plate verses laminated cardboard or something. Anyway we made some really high end sub boxes, up to 18" drivers and they were all MDF internals with whatever on the outside. Oh yeah, I meant to say this. It's amazing the range of quality in MDF. Of course the same is true for plywood.
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Jan 27, 2015 05:29
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GTO posted:Has anyone ever looked at who these audiophile types are? Engineers, mostly, which explains why they're so god drat clueless.
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Jan 27, 2015 18:15
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Actually, it is frightening.
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Jan 27, 2015 18:37
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I'm telling you the bolts on this overpass support have to be wooden. It will smooth out the vibrations and give them a nice warm tone.
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Jan 27, 2015 18:57
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VideoTapir posted:I'm telling you the bolts on this overpass support have to be wooden. It will smooth out the vibrations and give them a nice warm tone. 100% of the engineers I've had the "pleasure" of working with have been utter fakki-idiootteja who have extreme trouble comprehending engineering stuff outside their own field.
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Jan 27, 2015 19:02
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Oh man, someone actually linked this site as proof of his assertion that stairsteps are inevitable when dealing with digital audio: http://www.msbtech.com/support/How_DACs_Work.php?Page=supportHome It starts out on a semi-reasonable note. Yes, there will be some quantization noise because we do not use infinite bit rate and so on. And then it just takes a turn for the absurdist bullshit with weird-rear end analogies with jars and claims that DACs have to "guess what's between the samples". But of course, their DAC is better because it starts with half-filled jars or whatever the hell it is they're claiming  And how much do their DACs cost? http://www.msbtech.com/products/platinumHome.php Well, they start at $7K for the base model, and go all the way to $90K for the top model. What's that you say? You want spec sheets and specifications for these amazing DACs? Sorry, no can do. You'll just have to take their word for it. And then it gets worse: http://www.msbtech.com/support/wiring.php?Page=supportHome
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Jan 27, 2015 19:23
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That's really stupid. Has there ever been even the slightest proof of clean power vs dirty power or whatever?
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Jan 27, 2015 19:48
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If I could make a DAC out of $10 parts and sell it for $7000, even if I sold just one per year, I'd be happy. I have a feeling that there's gotta be at least a few manufacturers intentionally exploiting audiophiles out there.
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Jan 27, 2015 19:53
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BigFactory posted:Has there ever been even the slightest proof of clean power vs dirty power or whatever? BANME.sh posted:If I could make a DAC out of $10 parts and sell it for $7000, even if I sold just one per year, I'd be happy. I have a feeling that there's gotta be at least a few manufacturers intentionally exploiting audiophiles out there.
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Jan 27, 2015 19:54
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Combat Pretzel posted:Still wishing to win the lottery to buy their crap for documented teardowns... No, because gently caress giving money to scammers.
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Jan 27, 2015 20:31
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BigFactory posted:That's really stupid. If "dirty" power was such a huge issue our major swaths of our civilization would probably won't work, including those chem lab spectrometers that can reliably detect stuff into the parts per billion/trillion range. KozmoNaut posted:No, because gently caress giving money to scammers. "How do you know it isn't better if you can't afford it?"  Ok, lets give them the benefit of doubt and they have hyperbolic measurements of 0.0000000000000000000000001% THD+N/IMD, 1000 dB of SNR etc. Sounds good until the fact that those specs are going to be dwarfed by the innate distortion and the non-flat frequency response of the best of the best of speakers by orders of magnitudes. "BUT I CAN HEAR THE DIFFERENCE" -golden ears type ODing on placebo pills
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Jan 28, 2015 03:45
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nm~~
Chill Callahan fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Jan 28, 2015 |
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Jan 28, 2015 05:23
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Palladium posted:"How do you know it isn't better if you can't afford it?" Even if we gave them the benefit of the doubt, it simply isn't possible for them to exceed the measured performance of the Benchmark DAC2. Since there will always be an analog component to any sound reproduction system, entropy and thermal self-noise puts a limit of around 120dB SNR. And than you get to the comparatively huge THD that any speaker inherently has, by virtue of being a mechanical device. On a slightly different subject, I just had a guy in the Youtube comments section on Linus' scathing review of the Pono tell me that not all sound is sinusoidal in nature or the product of a number of interacting sinusoidals. I have literally no idea how he thinks sound waves work in this universe, but they obviously work in a completely different way in the universe he comes from.
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Jan 28, 2015 10:46
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