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swamp waste posted:matching the QTEs to the normal inputs. This is huge because in normal play the brain doesn't go "oh poo poo a pit, i need the a button to jump" your brain goes "jump mothafucka! Wheee!" When qtes use actual button prompts on screen it does 2 things it fucks up your brain and stuns your fingers while you try and think about the buttons you've forgotten in play It makes you stop looking at what is actually going on in the cut scene which was so important to include over actual gameplay.
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Feb 17, 2015 19:28
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Corvo posted:I remember a few years ago there was a talk at some indie developers panel, and a Japanese member of the audience asked Johnathan Blow, Phil Fish and a few others (the Super Meat Boy/Binding of Isaac guys etc.) for tips on game design. These developers just flat-out said that Japanese games are terrible and that Japanese developers suck and have no idea what they're doing. They were actually pretty rude and harsh to the guy, and I felt sorry for him because the whole room erupted into laughter while these guys went on a rant and he just stood there embarrassed after asking a genuine question and seeking advice. I look forwards to the future of all games being either clones of HBO serial dramas, mapgames, or industrial equipment simulators
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Feb 17, 2015 19:29
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Atheon is cool as heck
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Feb 17, 2015 19:30
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More games need to take the Serious Sam approach to boss fights in my opinion. 
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Feb 17, 2015 19:37
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End boss fights in general suck. They're lazy game design and an artifact of the days when games were quarter-munchers. There's got to be a more interesting way to bring a game to a close than, "let's throw something big at the player and ramp up the challenge a few notches and then roll ending cutscene."
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Feb 17, 2015 19:44
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Devil Wears Wings posted:End boss fights in general suck. They're lazy game design and an artifact of the days when games were quarter-munchers. There's got to be a more interesting way to bring a game to a close than, "let's throw something big at the player and ramp up the challenge a few notches and then roll ending cutscene."  And how does it make any sense for them to be from arcade games? Like what? Arcade games wouldn't expect the player to get to the end at all. It's an artifact of story based games that weren't trying to be cinematic experiences and were aware that they're video games. It's a tonal decision to be pulpy and over the top icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Feb 17, 2015 |
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Feb 17, 2015 19:49
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Agreed with the earlier guy that indie games still have cool bosses. In particular, Iji and FTL. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67eLpLhxEPg The boss is programmed to notice what attacks hit you and use those more often, so if you suck at a mechanic it'll get harder and harder. Pretty cool oldschool boss design. And the flagship in FTL can be a bit hard if you get unlucky with loot, but it uses basically every mechanic in the game so it really tests what you've learned.
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Feb 17, 2015 20:00
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My favorite boss was from Quake, Shub Niggurath. I blew through all my ammo shooting the guy and was left with my axe, running around the map wondering how much HP the guy had left. Then someone watching me play spoiler'd it.
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Feb 17, 2015 20:19
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Every boss in Dead Rising 1 and 2 is total loving bullshit and the reason why I hate those games. I assume 3 is the same. Some of the psychopaths in both games are fun but you're right, and Dead Rising 1 had the worst final boss I think I've ever seen. He shows up out of nowhere, you get unarmed going in to fight him (after you spent the entire game killing zombies and psychos with whatever was sitting around) and he's essentially impossible. Unless you learned the crazy broken spinning move thing (Frank just twirls around with his arms outstretched like a little kid trying to get dizzy, which somehow decapitates any zombies in the way and causes massive crab damage), which you can just spam him with and win with no effort. 2 was better and actually had a halfway decent villain but his fight still sucks. How was 3? gay skull fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Feb 18, 2015 |
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Feb 17, 2015 20:35
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icantfindaname posted:
You've got your chronology wrong. In the old arcade shmups and beat 'em ups that dominated arcades from the mid-'80s onward, boss fights were very obviously a way to artificially extend playtime, and by extension eat up more quarters, by placing a brick wall in front of the player. Progression-based games adopted boss fights because by then defeating the Big Bad at the end of the level was an ingrained video game trope.
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Feb 17, 2015 20:37
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gay skull posted:Some of the psychopaths in both games are fun but you're right, and Dead Rising 1 had the worst final boss I think I've ever seen. He shows up out of nowhere, you get unarmed going in to fight him (after you spent the entire game killing zombies and psychos with whatever was sitting around) and he's either essentially impossible. Unless you learned the crazy broken spinning move thing (Frank just twirls around with his arms outstretched like a little kid trying to get dizzy, which somehow decapitates any zombies in the way and causes massive crab damage), which you can just spam him with and win with no effort. They made the psychopaths a lot easier in 3 by removing their bullshit invincibility with every attack. They're still kinda hard with melee but you do so much more damage to them compared to the other games that they're pathetically easy if you're leveled up enough. And if you have a firearm or combo gun then you can end the fight in less than a minute.
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Feb 17, 2015 20:40
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Modern boss fights suck because actual game design, coming up with and implementing good mechanics, is no longer a part of most games. If you don't have solid fundamentals, there's nothing to build something climactic that requires you to combine all the techniques you've learned, the resources you've gathered, the executional improvements you've made into a demanding and enjoyable challenge.
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Feb 17, 2015 20:41
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Yeah the concept of a climax is definitely a thing that comes from Final Fight.
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Feb 17, 2015 20:41
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Devil Wears Wings posted:You've got your chronology wrong. In the old arcade shmups and beat 'em ups that dominated arcades from the mid-'80s onward, boss fights were very obviously a way to artificially extend playtime, and by extension eat up more quarters, by placing a brick wall in front of the player. Progression-based games adopted boss fights because by then defeating the Big Bad at the end of the level was an ingrained video game trope. Everything in games is artificial.
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Feb 17, 2015 20:41
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SunAndSpring posted:So, I've been noticing a lot of video games recently seem to have two recurring flaws. One, they're too loving short and yet cost 50-60 dollars for some reason. But that's another topic. Two, all bosses or the very final boss is a Quick Time Event. because boss fights are dumb but also you're talking poo poo thanks
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Feb 17, 2015 20:44
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K8.0 posted:Modern boss fights suck because actual game design, coming up with and implementing good mechanics, is no longer a part of most games. If you don't have solid fundamentals, there's nothing to build something climactic that requires you to combine all the techniques you've learned, the resources you've gathered, the executional improvements you've made into a demanding and enjoyable challenge. you're an idiot
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Feb 17, 2015 20:45
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Alain Post posted:Everything in games is artificial. Just a hunch, but I think you and I are talking about completely different definitions of "artificial" here.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:05
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K8.0 posted:Modern boss fights suck because actual game design, coming up with and implementing good mechanics, is no longer a part of most games. If you don't have solid fundamentals, there's nothing to build something climactic that requires you to combine all the techniques you've learned, the resources you've gathered, the executional improvements you've made into a demanding and enjoyable challenge. None of that is actually true, and I would gently suggest that you spend more time looking for and playing games you actually enjoy.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:06
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Feb 17, 2015 21:09
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Devil Wears Wings posted:Just a hunch, but I think you and I are talking about completely different definitions of "artificial" here. Well what context do you mean? Yes, bosses "artificially extend playtime" but you could say the exact same thing of the decision to have five stages instead of three, for example.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:12
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I don't think modern boss fights are particularly shittier. There are a lot of lovely bosses but there were a lot of lovely bosses even back in the NES/SNES era. It's just easier to forget the ten billion awful generic forgettable bosses in favor of the awesome memorable ones. The QTE-trend is (relatively) new (and unarguably kind of unsatisfying) but they're just kind of an extension of the "poo poo, we gotta get this out, toss in a low-effort boss fight" that is nothing new to video games. It's just that 'giant immobile mass with a glowing weak point" used to be that.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:19
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Edit: God... god dammit, Chris. This entire topic seems like one of those discussions you sometimes get from people who have hit their mid-twenties or later, and who are somewhat disillusioned by their preferred hobbies because they aren't quite as excited about them as they could manage to be when they were younger. The amount of actual quality design going into video games right now is more or less consistent with what it's always been, although more of the marquee creators are heading towards small studios and Kickstarter now as the larger developers become more risk-averse. (It's not that they're more or less profit-driven, as they always were, but a modern A-list video game is an expensive enough proposition that they aren't going to green-light every stupid idea that flies through a designer's skull anymore and they're going to carefully boil out anything that might limit a game's potential audience, which is also why A-list games protagonists have become a nearly-indistinguishable gray fog of brown-haired stubbly white guys with anger issues.) The difference is that you're comparing what's coming out right now, with all its faults and problems, with a rose-colored assessment of the past twenty years. When you compare something like Dying Light, where the last "boss fight" is essentially a platforming sequence leading up to a quick-time event, with a carefully chosen who's-who of great boss fights in video game history, Dying Light is going to look awful. Of course it's going to look awful. It's like comparing every film made in 2014 with the AFI's 100 Greatest Films list and coming to the conclusion that modern films are awful; you're sinking your own average. For every great boss fight you remember because it was challenging, graphically spectacular, or intricately designed, you're choosing not to remember a half-dozen which you bulldozed over, glitched past, burned all your resources on, or slowly chewed through over the course of twenty painful minutes. The past isn't a golden age. You were just younger and/or dumber then, and you've edited your memory so you aren't sitting around all day thinking about all the time you wasted trying to kill Ruby Weapon or whatever.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:24
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MinibarMatchman posted:Shadow Of Mordor was the most recent "boss battle" that completely poo poo all over the game for me, probably the wettest shittiest fart they could have taken for a climax. I don't think every game needs a boss battle, especially if it's shoehorned in, but goddamn at least put in some kind of ridiculous sequence if it's an action/adventure game instead of ending with QTE bullshit. It really was horrible. Especially so because of the progression of your character from 'probably can't handle a fight with 2 captains and 6 regular orcs' to 'unstoppable murder machine' so you're thinking loving Sauron can at least offer you a challenge at that point. You get all keyed up for this big, badass fight and nope, press 3 buttons to watch him die and roll credits. The moistest fart.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:30
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Devil Wears Wings posted:End boss fights in general suck. They're lazy game design and an artifact of the days when games were quarter-munchers. There's got to be a more interesting way to bring a game to a close than, "let's throw something big at the player and ramp up the challenge a few notches and then roll ending cutscene." In games that aren't going for some semblance of "realism," I think boss fights are wonderful. Of course, there's the caveat of "boss fights are great if they're implemented well," but that goes for just about any aspect of gameplay, so I don't think it's a meaningful distinction in this case. Many boss fights are lazy. Many games shouldn't have boss fights. Throwing lazy boss fights into games that shouldn't have them because you don't know how else to provide a climactic challenge or, worse, because boss fights are "expected"--that's bad. That's where boss fights suck. I'd also agree that, in most cases, boss fights that are major departures from the way the rest of the game plays are also kind of lovely. (I say "most cases" there because MGS4's final boss fight is a huge departure from the rest of the game and even has a completely new control scheme, but it's also one of the best and most memorable moments in the series.) I can't at all agree that "boss fights in general suck," though, because there's a huge list of games that are better for their boss fights. Now, maybe you don't play the kinds of games that tend to have good (or at least fitting) boss fights, and in that case, yes, boss fights are probably going to suck in general. But I can't imagine that a game like, to use a common example in this thread, Bayonetta would be anything but lessened for not having bosses.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:36
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i have played tetris and twinsons oddessy and starfox 67 and dome and microsoft maze screensaver and quake and kings quest for glory and quake the second and serious sam and blaster master and heroes of might and magic and super mario galaxy and ace combat and battleship and freedom force and commander keen and
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Feb 17, 2015 21:38
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Ernie Muppari posted:i have played tetris and twinsons oddessy and starfox 67 and dome and microsoft maze screensaver and quake and kings quest for glory and quake the second and serious sam and blaster master and heroes of might and magic and super mario galaxy and ace combat and battleship and freedom force and commander keen and
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Feb 17, 2015 21:39
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The L block in tetris is the best video game boss in history
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Feb 17, 2015 21:44
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I quite liked the final boss in Tomb Raider both the proper final boss because it was the toughest fight in the game as it should be and was fun and then the QTE boss after because of the finally having two handguns which was badass.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:59
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Blister posted:The L block in tetris is the best video game boss in history I like the SJ Sathanas as end boss. The final level forces you to apply what you learned all game: YOU CANT KILL THEM RUN JUST RUN
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Feb 17, 2015 22:15
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Broken Cog posted:More games need to take the Serious Sam approach to boss fights in my opinion. Serious Sam TSE had a 3-4 hour last level, loving amazing combat on mental. Serious Sam:BFE(Best loving Episode) had a crazy rear end huge last level, literally a canyon of bad guys charging you. Tenzarin fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Feb 17, 2015 |
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Feb 17, 2015 22:34
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Also the bosses in painkiller, atleast in the first one were all quite enjoyable
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Feb 18, 2015 01:05
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metroid prime 2 has some of the coolest boss design ever.
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Feb 18, 2015 01:12
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AHungryRobot posted:metroid prime 2 has some of the coolest boss design ever. True dat, even the minibosses are excellent.
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Feb 18, 2015 01:26
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Probably because modern genres and design conventions aren't well-suited to the concept of boss fights but devs feel compelled to include them anyway out of tradition, OP.
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Feb 18, 2015 01:51
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The last level in Thief 2 was the final boss of that game. That level took me like four hours to get through the first time, it was great.
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Feb 18, 2015 02:32
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Devil Wears Wings posted:You've got your chronology wrong. In the old arcade shmups and beat 'em ups that dominated arcades from the mid-'80s onward, boss fights were very obviously a way to artificially extend playtime, and by extension eat up more quarters, by placing a brick wall in front of the player. Progression-based games adopted boss fights because by then defeating the Big Bad at the end of the level was an ingrained video game trope. If not through a final boss battle, how else is Exdeath thwarted? What should've Snake done instead of fight The Boss, and how would that alternative provide the thematic weight of the final boss battle? Should the only way to defeat the Master to nuke the cathedral, instead of confronting him directly with guns or with words? You're being unnecessarily reductive. Just because Magneto was designed to lighten your wallet doesn't mean all final bosses are tainted by this Original Sin. Just because final bosses were created from quartermunchers, can't they become more? Chrono Trigger is a JRPG, a genre that could not exist under the conventions of arcades, whose story is all about Lavos being an rear end in a top hat and the need to stop it - is the final boss battle against Lavos flawed simply because it is a final boss battle? If the narrative leads to this final battle, is the narrative flawed? Your argument isn't much more than their origins, which isn't much fair to final bosses since 1980.
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Feb 18, 2015 03:20
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K8.0 posted:Modern boss fights suck because actual game design, coming up with and implementing good mechanics, is no longer a part of most games. If you don't have solid fundamentals, there's nothing to build something climactic that requires you to combine all the techniques you've learned, the resources you've gathered, the executional improvements you've made into a demanding and enjoyable challenge. I know this is reductive but I'm kind of feeling it. I don't see a single core mechanic in let's say Assassin's Creed that is dynamic enough that they can really "test" you on it; if you place your guy within the collision frame and press the right button he will rictus into the same canned animation in the same way as every other time. it's not something like Mario where split-second differences in your inputs affect trajectory and momentum in a way that a player can get significantly better at manipulating.
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Feb 18, 2015 03:36
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video games have tyet to improve on the spremely emirgent snfd dynamic test of skill that is red light green liget
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Feb 18, 2015 03:48
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:If not through a final boss battle, how else is Exdeath thwarted? What should've Snake done instead of fight The Boss, and how would that alternative provide the thematic weight of the final boss battle? Should the only way to defeat the Master to nuke the cathedral, instead of confronting him directly with guns or with words? same
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Feb 18, 2015 12:12
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swamp waste posted:I know this is reductive but I'm kind of feeling it. I don't see a single core mechanic in let's say Assassin's Creed that is dynamic enough that they can really "test" you on it; if you place your guy within the collision frame and press the right button he will rictus into the same canned animation in the same way as every other time. it's not something like Mario where split-second differences in your inputs affect trajectory and momentum in a way that a player can get significantly better at manipulating. The final boss fight of AC1 is much faster if you have mastered the hidden blade riposte, which you can make it through the entire game without even finding out about.
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Feb 18, 2015 22:48
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