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Kim Jong ill posted:Would sport fencing be better if it weren't straight back and forth in a line? (IMO this rule basically precludes any comparisons being made with a martial art, because holy hell restricting your movement to one dimension is dumb as poo poo in the context of combat). In the context of combat, there are no rules. The idea that any combat sport prepares you for real world combat is laughable. This is why you'll even see successful Pride fighters say they completely avoid street fights, because they fight with a ruleset that doesn't exist on a sidewalk. ScratchAndSniff posted:The historical reason I was told for the narrow strip was that from a self-defense perspective, you would probably be fighting in alleys between buildings instead of open fields. The real reason is probably just to conserve space, and because the electrical equipment makes running around impossible. Escrime had an article on this awhile ago and basically said that originally it was fenced in a circular piste, but the more successful fencers would resort to fencing in a line, eventually leading to what we have today. Neon Belly fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Feb 14, 2015 |
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Feb 14, 2015 21:18
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The historical reason I was told for the narrow strip was that from a self-defense perspective, you would probably be fighting in alleys between buildings instead of open fields. The real reason is probably just to conserve space, and because the electrical equipment makes running around impossible. When I played with historical stuff, sparring tended to take up a ton more space, just because of all the circular movements. This meant less people could bout at one time., which was kind of a drag.
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Feb 14, 2015 22:13
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People at my old club experimented with non-linear fencing, it just doesn't really work. It works a bit with saber but certainly not with foil. With saber people were doing what Kim Jong Ill was talking about scoring some very clever hits but it had a lot of complications, my problem with it was that it added so much extra complexity to footwork and people are so used to traditional footwork that we had a lot of people tripping over their own legs trying to move side to side. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgKg0Hc7YIA This looks fun though. Saber is the crown form of fencing, if you don't like getting bruises then go home. Epee is a very close second and when I was fencing I'd have been glad to never see a foil again.
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Feb 15, 2015 17:15
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There was at least one Renaissance fighting style that specifically de-emphasized linear movement, La Verdadera Destreza. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destreza 
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Feb 15, 2015 18:49
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I won't argue about its effectiveness, but that footwork diagram looks like 17th century timecube.
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Feb 16, 2015 03:24
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Crazy Achmed posted:I won't argue about its effectiveness, but that footwork diagram looks like 17th century timecube. I would: Wikipedia article posted:Over time, Spanish fencing came to be increasingly influenced by Italian and French fencing methods. Pressure became particularly intense in the 18th century, and destreza began a decline in popularity in favour of the dominant French school. In kendo, the majority of the battle is over the center line. If you cannot get an opponent in middle guard to break his stance, he/she is virtually un-hittable. Granted a lot of this is due to the limited targets viable in kendo, but even in koryu, this still largely applies. Also in kendo, you are free to move laterally, yet it always distills into very linear movements, as it is extremely easy to to adjust your position to an opponent who moves sideways. He/she moves 2 feet you the side, you only need to adjust an inch or 2. Further, I always see opponent who steps to the side as being afraid of attacking me straight on and they are freely (at least initially) giving up the center line.
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Feb 16, 2015 04:08
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That's a nice Wikipedia assertion you've got there, but I wouldn't take it as any sweeping evidence of greater effectiveness. Remember, most of the swordwork that survived into modern sport fencing came through the aristocracy, and thus has as much to do with what was fashionable as what was most effective outside of the salle. This is something to always keep in mind when judging any historical work. Our records in many places are fragmentary at best, and research into them has moved in leaps and bounds over the last few decades alone.
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Feb 16, 2015 08:50
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Come to think of it, I have seen a few people who like to gravitate to one side of the piste, presumably to change the angle between them and their opponent (provided they stay in the centre). But, as with my experience in that pisteless bout, it's easy for their opponent to cancel this out by turning or shifting sideways to match them. So, my view is that yeah, linearity in modern fencing is pretty arbitrary, but doesn't matter all that much because in offence, it's near trivial for someone to turn or also sidestep and keep the bout linear. In defence, the piste is wide enough to sidestep and dodge a thrust or run past your opponent. So it doesn't make too much difference for us, although I can see how it'd be different for longsword/buckler/etc.
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Feb 16, 2015 12:28
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It makes a lot more difference when you're not fighting in a flat, completely empty open space, too. 
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Feb 16, 2015 14:04
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Liquid Communism posted:It makes a lot more difference when you're not fighting in a flat, completely empty open space, too. Yes, but if we're judging people on combat skills, might as well do it 1-on-1 competition. Since armies have been trying to avoid fair fights since at least the days of Sun Tzu, trying to adopt warfare into a sport is going to be screwed by the issue that wars aren't fair. I suppose we could try to have some sort of grand melee, like something out of Game of Thrones, but there is going to be a shitton of luck involved. (I call swinging around a flaming sword like Thoros of Myr before he got religion. ) And If people want to fence with bucklers, I ought to be able to start my offensive against them with paint-tipped nerf guns, and they get disqualified for getting paint on their clothes. After all, shields are great against arrows, but they suck against swords. Only after they survive a brutal barrage of paint tipped nerf arrows are they allowed to engage in melee combat with me. It's silly to argue for some sort of historical accuracy when everybody is just making up silly rules. At the end of the day, it is a sport like any other. If you go around saying fencing is unrealistic, then whatever new rules you come up with are likely to be as unrealistic. thrakkorzog fucked around with this message at 08:52 on Feb 18, 2015 |
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Feb 18, 2015 06:41
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Oh, sure, I'm just pointing out that sport fencers not being good at using lateral movement has more to do with the rules of the game they train for than the utility of the movement in swordwork in general.
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Feb 18, 2015 07:16
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All this talk about realism reminds me of a woman I once trained with who legitimately thought that her fencing experience translated into knife-fighting, and she always carried around a knife "just in case." She swore that she could draw her knife fast enough to fight off any mugger who had a gun. Anyone else know people who legitimately believe fencing/swordfighting can be used for self defense?
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Feb 18, 2015 14:56
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ScratchAndSniff posted:All this talk about realism reminds me of a woman I once trained with who legitimately thought that her fencing experience translated into knife-fighting, and she always carried around a knife "just in case." She swore that she could draw her knife fast enough to fight off any mugger who had a gun. There's a pretty decent body of dagger work, especially the Italian stuff from Fiore, that if you drilled and sparred with it rough enough you'd probably stand a reasonable amount better than average chance in a knife fight.
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Feb 18, 2015 15:01
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thrakkorzog posted:And If people want to fence with bucklers, I ought to be able to start my offensive against them with paint-tipped nerf guns, and they get disqualified for getting paint on their clothes. After all, shields are great against arrows, but they suck against swords. What the hell are you talking about?
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Feb 18, 2015 15:03
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Kim Jong ill posted:There's a pretty decent body of dagger work, especially the Italian stuff from Fiore, that if you drilled and sparred with it rough enough you'd probably stand a reasonable amount better than average chance in a knife fight. Which means you get to die in the hospital rather than bleed out in the gutter?
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Feb 18, 2015 15:39
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ScratchAndSniff posted:All this talk about realism reminds me of a woman I once trained with who legitimately thought that her fencing experience translated into knife-fighting, and she always carried around a knife "just in case." She swore that she could draw her knife fast enough to fight off any mugger who had a gun. Like any martial art you're bound to get people who think they're a badass and wish some street punks would mess with them. Then your hanzo steel would cut a bloody swathe through the mass, causing the thugs to flee in fear and reverence of your skill. That being said, like any martial art if it's pressure tested enough you're probably going to fare better than a total scrub who relies on strength or sucker punches. Historical fencing utilizes grapples (shockingly similar to judo), and dagger fighting deals with, in many cases, being caught unarmed by a dude with a knife.
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Feb 18, 2015 15:43
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Kim Jong ill posted:What the hell are you talking about? Yeah, this. Bucklers are excellent for fencing.
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Feb 18, 2015 15:59
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ScratchAndSniff posted:All this talk about realism reminds me of a woman I once trained with who legitimately thought that her fencing experience translated into knife-fighting, and she always carried around a knife "just in case." She swore that she could draw her knife fast enough to fight off any mugger who had a gun. If you had a stick then you'd be probably pretty capable of poking them in the eye. And I guess it'd be helpful if the other person was trying to hit you with a stick too. Or you both had swords because you're in Renaissance Italy. No, fencing is not a useful self-defense skill. I mean, don't not try to use something if your life is on the line but anyone going in thinking that fencing will directly get them out of a scrape is gonna lose. You'll probably be in good shape so you can run away better. Jesus, I can see in my head a bunch of knucklehead fencers walking around with canes so they can play at Errol Flynn with muggers. Regarding the sword-and-buckler fencing mentioned earlier, that was a legitimate and popular style of combat AND sport in its time. It died out because dueling changed and popularity of single-sword styles blossomed. Whether or not it was more effective is immaterial I think. Guns and dueling coexisted and people still threw down plenty with swords. It's much older, and modern sport fencing is based off of what was basically the last evolution of dueling, and evolved itself quite a long way since. I could see how it could be done with modern electric scoring equipment. A conductive plate held in the off-hand so that hits against it wouldn't register.
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Feb 18, 2015 16:01
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Which means you get to die in the hospital rather than bleed out in the gutter? No way. If you use Fiore's dagger fighting techniques properly you will walk away without a scratch. 
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Feb 18, 2015 16:25
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ScratchAndSniff posted:No way. If you use Fiore's dagger fighting techniques properly you will walk away without a scratch. To be fair I don't know any dagger martial art that doesn't teach that you're likely to get cut during the exchange. Some of the moves I've practiced show you how to grab below the knife wrist with the back of your arm towards the blade, because it's better for the back of your arm to get cut than the veiny part.
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Feb 18, 2015 16:36
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ScratchAndSniff posted:No way. If you use Fiore's dagger fighting techniques properly you will walk away without a scratch. I don't study a whole lot of the historical manuals, so this'll probably sound ignorant, but how is that block useful? Wouldn't he just draw along your arm and punch you with his free hand, since you've used both of yours to block his single hand?
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Feb 18, 2015 16:37
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curious lump posted:I don't study a whole lot of the historical manuals, so this'll probably sound ignorant, but how is that block useful? Wouldn't he just draw along your arm and punch you with his free hand, since you've used both of yours to block his single hand? I don't know. After you block his knife with your wrist you probably just do some really complicated armlock while the apathetic knife-attacker passively stands there. ScratchAndSniff fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Feb 18, 2015 |
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Feb 18, 2015 17:03
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ScratchAndSniff posted:I don't know. After you block his knife with your wrist you probably just do some really complicated armlock while the apathetic knife-attacker passively stands there. I was watching an Italian rapier instructor's video where he was showing disarms that basically came out to the same thing. You wrapped up their blade in your arm and hit their forte with your sword, which only works assuming they let go at the slightest hint of pressure and have a habit of leaving their sword out for about a second after each lunge.
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Feb 18, 2015 17:11
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It's only one illustration, there's no way it's a static position. Block, maybe get a little cut, but keep on going to the next action. No pause. There's text too, that might explain what's going on. edit: People totally do leave their sword out after a lunge though! It's the craziest thing, but the thinking is roughly "Look at this lunge! This is a drat fine lunge. I'm going to stand here in this lunge for a second so I can admire it." and then they get hit because they're not recovering. I've done it, and I've taken advantage of it. That, or they've over-comitted and physically can't pull back quickly enough. Either way, I'm not sure why you wouldn't just stab them if you've got their blade under control. Showing off I guess. Actually, it probably is showing off. People LOVE to show off.
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Feb 18, 2015 17:17
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It seems poor to rely on a technique that assumes your opponent has a bare minimum of training or experience.
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Feb 18, 2015 17:18
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curious lump posted:It seems poor to rely on a technique that assumes your opponent has a bare minimum of training or experience. The standard isn't a completely untrained person, but rather someone with basic training at the time. Swords and daggers were the self defense weapons of the time, so inevitably you have people who know how to use them to a degree (common fencers). It's all about context, and the context at the time of those illustrations is essentially "everyone is armed, and most people know how to use these weapons well enough to save their own lives and probably kill someone else", which is where you get fighting treatises teaching you methods designed to defeat the common fencer. In fact, this is often an issue because many techniques break down against similarly trained fencers (why would you ever do X if you already know Y is way better), and also learning how to fence historically is often an issue because you're not going into it with a baseline of common fencing.
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Feb 18, 2015 17:29
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It's actually pretty dumb to dismiss techniques taught by a respected fencing master in a time when fights with the intent of causing serious bodily harm or death were a real and frequent occurrence, just because you saw one simplistic drawing completely lacking any context or further explanation. Unlike every modern martial art taught outside of a military force, what he was teaching was expected to be used in real fighting.
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Feb 18, 2015 17:38
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Kim Jong ill posted:It's actually pretty dumb to dismiss techniques taught by a respected fencing master in a time when fights with the intent of causing serious bodily harm or death were a real and frequent occurrence, just because you saw one simplistic drawing completely lacking any context or further explanation. Unlike every modern martial art taught outside of a military force, what he was teaching was expected to be used in real fighting. Thanks for getting mad on behalf of a guy who's been dead for hundreds of years. Here's some posting advice in exchange: next time, if you don't actually have a response to a post/point (beyond going full autistic), just don't type anything at all. Thanks and god bless.
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Feb 18, 2015 18:18
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Kim Jong ill posted:It's actually pretty dumb to dismiss techniques taught by a respected fencing master in a time when fights with the intent of causing serious bodily harm or death were a real and frequent occurrence, just because you saw one simplistic drawing completely lacking any context or further explanation. Unlike every modern martial art taught outside of a military force, what he was teaching was expected to be used in real fighting. We will have to agree to disagree, then. I would argue that it's pretty dumb to trust techniques developed for renaissance dagger fighting in any modern context, especially considering all you have to go by is a book and not real demonstration or training by the actual master. I would rather just give the mugger my wallet and move on with life.
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Feb 18, 2015 18:21
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ScratchAndSniff posted:We will have to agree to disagree, then. I would argue that it's pretty dumb to trust techniques developed for renaissance dagger fighting in any modern context, especially considering all you have to go by is a book and not real demonstration or training by the actual master. I would rather just give the mugger my wallet and move on with life. Literally every martial artist no matter the style will tell you "just give them your wallet". But "you weren't there so how could you know how it works?" is a pretty weak argument to make when it comes to historical fighting treatises.
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Feb 18, 2015 18:48
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ScratchAndSniff posted:All this talk about realism reminds me of a woman I once trained with who legitimately thought that her fencing experience translated into knife-fighting, and she always carried around a knife "just in case." She swore that she could draw her knife fast enough to fight off any mugger who had a gun. 
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Feb 18, 2015 19:32
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Verisimilidude posted:Literally every martial artist no matter the style will tell you "just give them your wallet". But "you weren't there so how could you know how it works?" is a pretty weak argument to make when it comes to historical fighting treatises. You make some good points, and I admit that some training in knifefighting is better than nothing. My main beef is with sport fencers who think fencing epee somehow prepares them for a knife fight. Edit: I also admit that I really don't know enough about renaissance dagger fighing to judge it one way or the other. ScratchAndSniff fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Feb 18, 2015 |
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Feb 18, 2015 19:34
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ScratchAndSniff posted:You make some good points, and I admit that some training in knifefighting is better than nothing. My main beef is with sport fencers who think fencing epee somehow prepares them for a knife fight. Sport fencing doesn't even prepare you for a sword fight, let alone a knife fight. That dude looks exactly like someone who would carry a katana around with them for "self-defense".
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Feb 18, 2015 19:35
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I've never met anyone who thought that swordfighting was useful as self-defense in any way. Most of us don't even own sharps and when we do run into them we treat them incredibly carefully. I mean, I'm sure that kind of jackass exists, but I doubt it's any more than any other martial art. There's always some douche who thinks he's Jackie Chan after a couple of lessons. Fiore was writing a book in the 1400's about what an awesome badass he was and it was almost certainly illustrated by monks who had only a passing understanding of what he was talking about and didn't even illustrate with perspective(that came in later manuals) so there's a bunch of interpretation as to technique
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Feb 18, 2015 19:46
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Speaking of illustrating Fiore...
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Feb 18, 2015 20:09
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Verisimilidude posted:Sport fencing doesn't even prepare you for a sword fight, let alone a knife fight. Uh oh! I guess I'm in trouble the next time I find myself in one of those. 
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Feb 18, 2015 23:17
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Sport fencing has me perfectly prepared to defend myself against a mugger, provided that we're in a well-lit narrow alleyway about 15 metres long, with a nice flat and even surface, that the mugger and i are both armed with identical smallswords, and that the swords are completely blunt so we can go to a best of fifteen. Ideally there'd be an experienced referee passing by at the time as well who could help us out. In actual fact, though, fencing has more likely made me completely loving useless in a real fight. I was once walking home from a bar with a couple of friends and some guy jumped out at us from a doorway (he was drunk and thought it'd be a funny way of getting our attention to ask if we had a light for his cigarette). One of my friends put his fists up, the other flinched. Completely off reflex, I went en garde in six, with empty hands, no less  [Edit] correct answer in post below Crazy Achmed fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 19, 2015 00:28
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I'd use my perfect footwork to run the gently caress away.
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Feb 19, 2015 01:09
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IM_DA_DECIDER posted:I'd use my perfect footwork to run the gently caress away. This.
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Feb 19, 2015 02:48
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ScratchAndSniff posted:Anyone else know people who legitimately believe fencing/swordfighting can be used for self defense? I've known a few SCA fighters who've used their skills in self defense, but they train in how to effectively and forcefully hit someone with a stick. It's handy in a lot more situations than knowing how to flick for points in foil, and in any case is a last resort for anyone with a bit of common sense. Replacing your wallet and credit cards is safe and cheaper than hospital bills or what the lawyers will want to defend you. Engage in the poor man's martial art, the 100 meter dash.
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Feb 19, 2015 09:00
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