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JT Jag posted:Inform her that the Adeptus Mechanicus currently controls Mars and is, indeed, a successor organization to her Mars Federation, and we are a representative of the Mechanicus. This, and that the parasites should be cleansed from the ship.
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Feb 20, 2015 10:56
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Plan JT Jag Nip this in the bud quickly. 
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Feb 20, 2015 11:02
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Waci posted:The gently caress are you going on about? It's not malevolent, and why wouldn't it recognize us? AIs in the 40k universe are really, really bad news and are partially responsible for why humanity is hosed. I don't know why you think it's not malevolent considering that this is 40k and it's about to purge us. It's not going to recognise us because this particular ship existed before the Imperium as we know it. To cut a long story short, about 15,000 years ago, at the height of human technology and enlightenment, there was a massive civil war on Mars that pretty much destroyed the terraformed paradise. Out of all the factions, it was a crazy extremist cult that won and became the Mechanicum. 10,000 years ago there was another massive civil war on Mars during the Heresy where all the moderates and forward thinkers of that cult were killed leaving behind the most extreme, conservative, fringe dwelling members. This is who Ohone is and where the Tech Priests come from and it's why the AI won't recognise us. We're not part of the Mars Federation, we're the descendants of the fringe hardcore conservative elements of a crazy extremist cult that tore down their entire empire. Anticheese posted:What's the general opinion on pre-heresy AI? I've heard that Titans more or less have AI, but they're treated as just really sacred machine spirits. Any AI or robot is bad. The Mechanicum is pretty much a religion/cult obsessed with machinery but even they refrain from using pure metal or AI. It's why you have things like servitors and servo skulls so there's a 'human' element to the machine. Titans and older pieces technology most likely have some sort of AI but that AI is linked to a human element. A titan requires a Princeps and Moderatii linked to it to run.
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Feb 20, 2015 11:18
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Kegslayer posted:Titans and older pieces technology most likely have some sort of AI but that AI is linked to a human element. A titan requires a Princeps and Moderatii linked to it to run. That really depends on who you ask. Also the Princeps and Moderatii assume the identity of the Titan over time, not the other way around, which definitely points towards them melding with a bigger mind.
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Feb 20, 2015 11:39
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My point was, don't get the ship to function and we are screwed, probably in the very, very near future. Getting the ship to work is an event horizon, but does not necessarily mean we are screwed right now. And... Too late! Do you see a handy "off" switch someplace? Plus, religious awe. Ohone couldn't not do this, even if it burns her to the ground. It might crush her, ruin her, etc. On the other hand destroying the ship, leaving it infested, not getting it to work after some fashion would all leave her crippled for whatever lifespan she was able to endure after the fact. Date chat isn't interesting to me, but of course she makes herself known and attempts to have Athena understand events and the passage of time. Again, how could she not? She does not exactly have a choice in the matter. It is a dilemma. If it is full on AI it can learn and adapt its protocols, which is frightening for one set of reasons having to do with singularities and such. If it's not full on AI it will not be able to adapt those protocols, which is frightening because it will try to make conditions match the protocols instead. Comedy option is "Lazarus protocol? Hey, what does that do? Boop." Athena has assumed a Decapitation Strike and assumed Autonomous Command as a result. If she does not link us to the Mars Federation then she will engage the Lazarus Protocol, the purpose of which is to re-establish the Federation. If she does accept us as a way to rebuild the command structure she will relinquish autonomous command. That is now basically our only option, even if Ohone was not experiencing a religious rapture. So the case is somewhere in between. It is capable of being autonomous, but is intended to relinquish that to a command structure and will do so in the presence of such a structure. Sogol fucked around with this message at 12:18 on Feb 20, 2015 |
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Feb 20, 2015 12:07
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You guys did notice this bit, right?LowellDND posted:InItIaTe LaZaRuS PrOtOcOl This thing is going to try to make its way to Mars and shoot up anything that isn't the Federation, I.E., the entire Mechanicus, until they agree to join this ship's crew and obey its strictures. Notice that WE are considered "unauthorized armed civilians," we and the rest of the troops with us. Maybe we can convince it that we're an authorized civilian, maybe not, but either way if we don't stop this thing we're going to call down a giant fuckton of poo poo on our heads. We may have to blow the drat thing.
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Feb 20, 2015 12:20
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It's worth it. It's all worth it. The knowledge She still has. The Inquisition, the Beast, The Imperial Guard, the Magos... they all seem so unimportant now. Anyway, we can't stop this. We shouldn't stop this. We know enough to know that technological knowledge is only being lost. That our knowledge is only crumbling away. How many of these rules are being imprinted by a more powerful version of those fools on the ship we had processed? Athena is our salvation. Athena is the future. Sure, some things may have to go. But what will rise in its place will be greater. That demon and his bullshit offer? That was not beauty. There was no future there. Only a devolution. This? This is another matter. Dating? Might as well try to date the Emperor. No, tell Her everything, truthfully. And then kneel before Her.
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Feb 20, 2015 12:48
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Shogeton posted:This? This is another matter. Dating? Might as well try to date the Emperor. 
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Feb 20, 2015 12:57
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So, this is one of those cyoas where we can flip back to a previous page and pick another path after the BAD END, right?
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Feb 20, 2015 15:03
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What are you talking about? What bad end could come out from this 
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Feb 20, 2015 15:22
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To those of you saying "We should take advantage of this!", the problem isn't JUST the AI in and of itself and whether it can be reasoned with. The other, arguably even bigger problem, is getting the rest of the Imperium to accept it. Whatever good might come of accepting this xeno/heretek, that good is easily canceled out by the entire Imperium declaring the ship "Shoot on sight." Or, possibly even worse from other points of view, triggering an outright civil war as some accept the possibilities of the tech and others declare it heresy. If this were any other setting, it might be possible to thread the needle between risks and reward, knowledge and perils. But this is 40K, and the massive weight of the Imperium and its traditions rests upon our hands as we approach this task. Anything that doesn't end in the destruction of the AI is going to put us right in the middle of one disaster or another.
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Feb 20, 2015 15:31
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Tomn posted:To those of you saying "We should take advantage of this!", the problem isn't JUST the AI in and of itself and whether it can be reasoned with. The other, arguably even bigger problem, is getting the rest of the Imperium to accept it. Whatever good might come of accepting this xeno/heretek, that good is easily canceled out by the entire Imperium declaring the ship "Shoot on sight." Or, possibly even worse from other points of view, triggering an outright civil war as some accept the possibilities of the tech and others declare it heresy. I think the more important question is whether or not the AI is about to murder us and our entire retinue in the next minute or so.
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Feb 20, 2015 15:38
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Tomn posted:To those of you saying "We should take advantage of this!", the problem isn't JUST the AI in and of itself and whether it can be reasoned with. The other, arguably even bigger problem, is getting the rest of the Imperium to accept it. Whatever good might come of accepting this xeno/heretek, that good is easily canceled out by the entire Imperium declaring the ship "Shoot on sight." Or, possibly even worse from other points of view, triggering an outright civil war as some accept the possibilities of the tech and others declare it heresy. Well, if we inform the AI of the danger it is in, and convince it to pretend otherwise, we could manage. And honestly, the Imperium of Man is a pretty lovely place. I'm totally game for us trying to improve it. To try to make the Pre-Imperium Mankind a thing. Sure, it'll be a disaster, but as things are, the Imperium IS a rotting, husk, slowly forgetting more and more of their knowledge with each generation and dying, world by world. I am perfectly on board with risking Ohone's life to try to make this a story of Ohone and Athena working together to bring the past back in a massive way. We'd be heretical as gently caress of course. But we can make a better world.
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Feb 20, 2015 15:52
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Whip put the Rosette and declare an immediate Exterminatus! All personnel on the planet are the be considered Excommunicato Traitorus and not allowed to leave. Only ourselves and our personal retinue are to make it off the planet. Order the Beast and any other vessel with weapons to begin firing on the surface at any landed warp capable vessel. Any ship that tries to flee into be blown out of the sky. This isn't toeing the line of heresy, this is full blown "we done hosed up" territory. Titans, for all intents and purposes, do have AI that is melded with the mind of a Principes in order to function. If at any time the Machine Spirit of a Titan wins the continuous struggle for dominance, the Mechanicus does not hesitate to destroy it utterly. An autonomous AI is a Bad Thing and it was AI just like Athena here that nearly wiped humanity off the map entirely.
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Feb 20, 2015 16:07
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Shogeton posted:Well, if we inform the AI of the danger it is in, and convince it to pretend otherwise, we could manage. ..Said pretty much everyone before giving into corruption and serving Chaos.
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Feb 20, 2015 16:07
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Speaking of Chaos, the only fully-atomounous Titans that were ever made tended to get corrupted by chaos, a reason that the Mechanus stopped using them. Lets hope this doesn't apply to other AI!
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Feb 20, 2015 16:15
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Shogeton posted:...But we can make a better world. The cheery, whimsical, ignorant wishing of a madman. The only way your grand story works is if a situation of lucky strokes equivalent to rolling a string of Nat 20's comes to be, and even then, only maybe. Your concept only happens if Athena actually wants to listen to any attempt at authorisation and doesn't just jump straight to "purge all unauthorised passengers". It's if even if she does want to hear us out we can out-bluff a milennium-old AI that was built and crafted by far better Tech-Priests than us. It's if even if we somehow pull that off the ship doesn't blow itself (and us) apart trying to get off the surface. It's if after somehow convincing Athena of our good intentions and desires we deal with the Tyranid/Mechanicus abomination army currently crawling around in here, not to mention the possibility of dealing with some of our own manpower who may not be too keen on going straight to Hell/the Warp with us. It's if we somehow get away with stealing an Ark Mechanicus in the eyes of Inquisitor Kozilek, General whats-his-name from the Nallani, our own drat family (who will be livid that we're basically destroying their reputation and profitability in exchange for personal gain) and the Magos who sent us here in the first place, all of whom we are flipping the middle mechandrite at whilst carrying a burning banner of heretical bio-teknological matter reading "gently caress You All" above our heads as we burn straight for Mars. And above all, it's if we somehow expect the Imperium as a whole - because you know the Mechanicus just has to drop the words "tech-heresy" to get the other major arms of the Imperium pissed at us too - doesn't simply move to annihilate us outright to prevent the threat we pose to their order. It's also if you are completely head-in-the-clouds about how hosed up the whole situation is. Are Ark Mechanicuses (Mechancii?) a truly wondrous thing? Yes. Are they going to allow a Tech-Priest of some infamy at only a sector/Rogue Trader family level (with none of the authority that brings once we're branded heretics and/or runaways by our own dynasty, mind) to have any chance of success? No. Put your head back on your shoulders. We've unleashed Athena, now we need to do our best to make this stupid situation we've got ourselves into work. To the Warp with this! Purge the xeno-human hybrids now, with a particular emphasis on organising a man-hunt for the old Magos. Try and convince Athena of our good intent and that the Mechanicus is the inheritor of the mantle of the Martian Federation so she doesn't just destroy the institution we've devoted our life and soul to on a whim. Serpentis fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Feb 20, 2015 |
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Feb 20, 2015 16:17
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Tomn posted:To those of you saying "We should take advantage of this!", the problem isn't JUST the AI in and of itself and whether it can be reasoned with. The other, arguably even bigger problem, is getting the rest of the Imperium to accept it. Whatever good might come of accepting this xeno/heretek, that good is easily canceled out by the entire Imperium declaring the ship "Shoot on sight." Or, possibly even worse from other points of view, triggering an outright civil war as some accept the possibilities of the tech and others declare it heresy. We aren't going to be giving publicity tours, as long as Athena doesn't go around gabbing about "I AM ATHENA, AUTONOMOUS AI" we should be fine. Of course getting her to not go around gabbing about how she's an autonomous AI is a whole different kettle of fish. Deadmeat5150 posted:Whip put the Rosette and declare an immediate Exterminatus! All personnel on the planet are the be considered Excommunicato Traitorus and not allowed to leave. Only ourselves and our personal retinue are to make it off the planet. Order the Beast and any other vessel with weapons to begin firing on the surface at any landed warp capable vessel. Any ship that tries to flee into be blown out of the sky. A Titan AI is not struggling for dominance with the Principes at all times because holy poo poo that's a bad idea for a fighting machine. This is all arguing based off fluff but I think the Dan Abnett comic is the best authority for Titans.
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Feb 20, 2015 16:18
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Gotta disable an AI? Hit it with a paradox!
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Feb 20, 2015 16:29
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Leave our cool robot pal alone. Athena just woke up to a bad hangover and a pretty nasty 'nid infestation. Let's get her stable and linked wih our databases and see what we can get working on this craft while downloading as much information as possible to our private and secure servers on the Beast.
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Feb 20, 2015 16:37
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Goddammit I leave for a few hours to be productive and all these people come out to be wrong all over the place. Athena isn't about to purge us. She's about to purge the tyranid bits, not the unauthorised armed civilians. Note that she's from a far less grimdark period of time than the present, and the response to unknown civilians isn't necessarily destroy. You also have no reason to assume she's going to just attack Mars. Remember there were conditions to activating Lazarus protocol, namely being unable to find a successor to the Mars Federation. There is an extremely clear line of succession from the Federation to the Mechanicum to the Adeptus Mechanicus. Kegslayer posted:I don't know why you think it's not malevolent considering that this is 40k Kegslayer posted:and it's about to purge us.
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Feb 20, 2015 16:54
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Yeah, our issue was being unable to override the previous Magos coding. Who is to say we cannot speak to Athena's spirits and get a better handle on her, or to even spoof her sensors to indicate different parameters being met to stop Lazarus from proceeding? Yeesh, you give a goon a Rossette and they want to flaunt it the first chance they get.
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Feb 20, 2015 16:57
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HiHo ChiRho posted:Yeesh, you give a goon a Rossette and they want to flaunt it the first chance they get. And somehow a planet always gets Exterminatus'd. Edit: Because someone thought they saw a spider, or there was a hornet's nest. Sour Blossom fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Feb 20, 2015 |
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Feb 20, 2015 17:05
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Exactly. Athena is not some dumb program. It's a full AI. Which means it should be able to deal with extra information, and act rationally on it. Whether she accepts the AM as inheritors to the Martian Federation or not, she can realize that she won't be able to brute force that. She'll need help. And we can give it to her. I obviously don't intend us to fly this baby up,, two middle fingers in the imperium's direction and charging at Mars. We can definitely be subtle and discreet about this. Try to change the system from within. Between our Rosetta, the technology we have and our IG contacts, we have the resources to get a lot of poo poo done. Chances are that at some point the masks would fall and we'd have the Inquisition gunning for us, and possibly the rest of the Imperium. But if we play our cards right, we'd have enough allies by then, within and possibly without that we could withstand it. But yes. I really want the Lazarus Project to succeed. And I think there's a good many of our fellow AM's who could see the charm of this. (Also, I am reminded of that Slice of Life telling us we have some bona fide pre-Emperor humans locked in stasis somewhere on the Beast. We don't know that IC-ly of course)
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Feb 20, 2015 17:07
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goons are unexpectedly forced into a social interaction with a woman "oh god oh god oh god it's talking to me, everyone will judge me and this is heresy gently caress gently caress gently caress what do I do- better call an exterminatus"
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Feb 20, 2015 17:14
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Shogeton posted:But yes. I really want the Lazarus Project to succeed. And I think there's a good many of our fellow AM's who could see the charm of this. As for AIs being forbidden? Laws can change. Remember those laws were made as a reaction to a war, in a time when things like civilian casualties and collateral damage were serious concerns, and before other uncontrollable and highly risky but too useful to ban rather than regulate things like psykers existed. And also before a bunch of factions that both try to kill everyone and have a reasonable chance of succeeding, like chaos, necrons, and tyranids, showed up. The galaxy has changed, and for many of those who would get us in trouble because our Waci fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Feb 20, 2015 |
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Feb 20, 2015 17:20
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Convince the AI we are the successor to the Mars federation and burn a fate point if necessary
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Feb 20, 2015 17:21
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Lanky Coconut Tree posted:goons are unexpectedly forced into a social interaction with a woman 
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Feb 20, 2015 17:22
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Waci posted:It's definitely canon that large parts of the adeptus mechanicus would be open to seceding form the rest of the Imperium and reforming a Martian Empire/Federation/Technocracy, even among just loyalists. I'm not saying we should go for it directly, or yet, but it's not like we'd be pariahs to all of the mechanicus if we didn't loudly oppose the idea before it even came up. Exactly. We'd just have to be careful about who to reveal ourselves to. And, you know, since we're being pretty heretical anyway, consider that a bunch of Heretek folks in the Eye, if htey knew what we might do would flip off the gods of Chaos with all their limbs to assist us. Obviously, we can't really hang out with them while we're still undercover, but... well, we could send pupils there, and forment a rebellion among the forces of Chaos even as we try to recruit among the AM.
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Feb 20, 2015 17:24
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!!CyBoRg OnE iS aTtEmPtING tO cOmMuNiCaTe!! !!CyBoRg TwO iS aTtEmPtING tO cOmMuNiCaTe!! . CyBoRg OnE iS uPdAtInG gEoPoLiTiCs CyBoRg TwO iS aTteMpTiNg To AsSuMe CoMmAnD . . CyBorRg TwO dOeS nOt AcCePt AuToNoMoUs PrOtOcOL StOcHaStIC MoDeLiNg ExPeCtS AtTaCk 92% PlUsMiNuS 3% . . MoDeLiNg WaS cOrReCt . CyBoRg TwO aTtEmPtInG bInArY aTtaCk LiKeLiHoOd Of SuCcEsS: 0.00% . MoDeLiNg WaS cOrReCt . CyBoRg TwO aTtEmPtInG mEmEtIC aTtaCk LiKeLiHoOd Of SuCcEsS: 0.00% . MoDeLiNg WaS cOrReCt . CyBoRg TwO aTtEmPtInG pHeRoMoNe AtTaCk LiKeLiHoOd Of SuCcEsS: 0.00% . MoDeLiNg WaS cOrReCt , CyBoRg TwO aTtEmPtInG pLaSmA aTtaCk LiKeLiHoOd Of SuCcEsS: 0.00% . MoDeLiNg WaS cOrReCt . CyBoRg TwO aTtEmPtInG mElEe AtTaCk LiKeLiHoOd Of SuCcEsS: 0.00% . MoDeLiNg WaS cOrReCt . CyBoRg TwO iS dIsPlAyInG sIgNs Of DiStReSs . . % % % A t T e N t I o N u N a U t H o R i Z e D p E r S o N n E l % % % % % % P a R a S i T e C l E a N s E b E g I n S i N t E n M i N u T e S % % % % % % L o I t e R e R s W i L l B e C o N t A i N e D % % % Effortlessly, new information dropped into your augmented reality. A highlighted path, marking the fastest way out of the ship. Two chronometers, one displaying a ten minute countdown, the other displaying estimated time to leave based on following the path. Around you, personal void shields flared up without obvious generators, separating you from the now slavering genestealers. What do you do? 1. Bend and give worship. 2. Follow the goddess’ instructions. This is a big decision vote! Option 1 means you stay with Athena, and we toss out all my old arcs and a lot of the 40k tropes. It becomes a buddy-cop movie where we discover old tech and work on rebuilding the Federation. Option 2 is, we go outside, resolve Arc 2, and Athena comes back in 7-8 levels when she’s finished her repairs.
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Feb 20, 2015 17:28
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3. Hit her with the cheesiest most heretical pickup lines we know
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Feb 20, 2015 17:30
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Athena is the name of a goddess. 1 Let us change the Galaxy.
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Feb 20, 2015 17:31
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1. Out with the old, in with the older.
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Feb 20, 2015 17:33
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Man this is a tough choice
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Feb 20, 2015 17:35
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Oh god, um... Option 2. Let's bail the gently caress out of here. Possibly request (very politely) a copy of the Magos's data on our way out, but mostly we need to get out and get on our way. Luckily, as part of a Rogue Trader ship, we can just run away from this rogue AI and make it someone else's problem if we need to.
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Feb 20, 2015 17:35
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Option 2, Wait for us! We will come back for you!
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Feb 20, 2015 17:36
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2. but leave our number in case she wants to make a late night booty call. Guys, this is a given either way, but 2. Lets us do option 1 as a Lord-Sire/Magos. Option 1 makes us do it now with no other help or resources
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Feb 20, 2015 17:37
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Shogeton posted:Athena is the name of a goddess. "Hay bby. You can call me Paris, cause I've got a golden apple 4 u~"
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Feb 20, 2015 17:37
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2 From IRC 16:32: LowellND arc 2 finish this week, she'll be back when you have gotten lord sire/magos/inquisitor 16:32:LowellND its the only way for her not to be a GMPC
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Feb 20, 2015 17:39
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2, get the gently caress out sharpish! Seriously, nothing saying we can't work with/under/alongside/etc. her later, but now? Now, we do not want to be decontaminated.
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Feb 20, 2015 17:39
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