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Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010

Crazy Achmed posted:

Sport fencing has me perfectly prepared to defend myself against a mugger, provided that we're in a well-lit narrow alleyway about 15 metres long, with a nice flat and even surface, that the mugger and i are both armed with identical smallswords, and that the swords are completely blunt so we can go to a best of fifteen. Ideally there'd be an experienced referee passing by at the time as well who could help us out.

In actual fact, though, fencing has more likely made me completely loving useless in a real fight.
I was once walking home from a bar with a couple of friends and some guy jumped out at us from a doorway (he was drunk and thought it'd be a funny way of getting our attention to ask if we had a light for his cigarette).
One of my friends put his fists up, the other flinched. Completely off reflex, I went en garde in six, with empty hands, no less :pseudo:

[Edit] correct answer in post below

I tried karate a few years ago, and learned two facts.

1)If you slip into a fencing stance you'll get your feet kicked out from under you.

2) parry carte is really ineffective against fists

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Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001

Strom Cuzewon posted:

I tried karate a few years ago, and learned two facts.

1)If you slip into a fencing stance you'll get your feet kicked out from under you.

2) parry carte is really ineffective against fists
Pffft. What kind of uncultured ruffian would resort to fighting with his bare fists? Good god, man, that would mean one might have to actually touch one's assailant.

Actual content: I'm thinking of getting a new glove soon, does anyone have any recommendations? I used to have an Uhlmann "champion", which was comfortable if a little thin, and now have a Leon Paul "advanced" 350N, which is weakening at one of the thumb seams after only about a year of use. I haven't tried Allstar or FWF, are they any good?

thrakkorzog
Nov 16, 2007

Strom Cuzewon posted:

I tried karate a few years ago, and learned two facts.

1)If you slip into a fencing stance you'll get your feet kicked out from under you.

2) parry carte is really ineffective against fists

It seems like anyone who has fenced a bit of Epee would have have decent enough footwork to notice that someone is aiming for a foot. The forward foot is the easiest, and most most obvious spot to try to score a point. So most fencers learn to avoid attacks aimed at their feet, that's pretty much the reason fencers focus on footwork.

If an epee fencer can't avoid an obvious foot attack without being unbalanced, then they were probably lovely fencers to begin with.

thrakkorzog fucked around with this message at 11:32 on Feb 20, 2015

ScratchAndSniff
Sep 28, 2008

This game stinks

Crazy Achmed posted:

Actual content: I'm thinking of getting a new glove soon, does anyone have any recommendations? I used to have an Uhlmann "champion", which was comfortable if a little thin, and now have a Leon Paul "advanced" 350N, which is weakening at one of the thumb seams after only about a year of use. I haven't tried Allstar or FWF, are they any good?

Allstar and Uhlmann are the same brand with different colors, and they are my favorite. A guy at my club had an FWF glove which he really liked, but it was in tatters in less than a year. He tended to take a lot of hand hits, though.

If you don't mind the duct tape look, it can usually extend the life of a glove for a while.

Zeitgueist
Aug 8, 2003

by Ralp
Definitely if you're going to streetfight, you're gonna want to roll with a nice cane and top hat, and bust out your bartitsu.

thrakkorzog
Nov 16, 2007

Zeitgueist posted:

Definitely if you're going to streetfight, you're gonna want to roll with a nice cane and top hat, and bust out your bartitsu.

Dammit, the Ninjas in my neighborhood aren't nice enough attack one at a time. They usually just dogpile someone, then beat them to death with what ever is handy. Those dicks.

Neon Belly
Feb 12, 2008

I need something stronger.

thrakkorzog posted:

It seems like anyone who has fenced a bit of Epee would have have decent enough footwork to notice that someone is aiming for a foot. The forward foot is the easiest, and most most obvious spot to try to score a point. So most fencers learn to avoid attacks aimed at their feet, that's pretty much the reason fencers focus on footwork.

If an epee fencer can't avoid an obvious foot attack without being unbalanced, then they were probably lovely fencers to begin with.

You should stop comparing fencing with striking or grappling.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001

ScratchAndSniff posted:

Allstar and Uhlmann are the same brand with different colors, and they are my favorite. A guy at my club had an FWF glove which he really liked, but it was in tatters in less than a year. He tended to take a lot of hand hits, though.

If you don't mind the duct tape look, it can usually extend the life of a glove for a while.
Interesting, thanks. FWF have some buzzy looking gloves with some sort of gel inserts, have you ever seen those?

Also, I dabble in sabre a little, how do the combination gloves work and are they worth considering? It would just be convenience for me, though - I don't normally do competitions, but at the same time I don't mind paying a bit more to have something nicer/stronger.

BirdOfPlay
Feb 19, 2012

THUNDERDOME LOSER

Crazy Achmed posted:

Interesting, thanks. FWF have some buzzy looking gloves with some sort of gel inserts, have you ever seen those?

Also, I dabble in sabre a little, how do the combination gloves work and are they worth considering? It would just be convenience for me, though - I don't normally do competitions, but at the same time I don't mind paying a bit more to have something nicer/stronger.

They're decent enough gloves. If you do more than just sabre, I'd recommend getting a manchate (cuff) over a sabre glove.

thrakkorzog
Nov 16, 2007

Gadamer posted:

You should stop comparing fencing with striking or grappling.

Sorry. I was thinking of Cobra-Khai Dojo 'sweep the the leg' BS. I was watching the Karate Kid the other night. Against a wrestler or an MMA fighter, yeah, someone in a fencing stance would get knocked down pretty quick.

El Spamo
Aug 21, 2003

Fuss and misery

BirdOfPlay posted:

They're decent enough gloves. If you do more than just sabre, I'd recommend getting a manchate (cuff) over a sabre glove.

Really though, if you intended to compete in a weapon it pays to get the equipment designed for it. Then again, I fence epee which is pretty much the flannel-wearing rednecks of the fencing world.

Foilists are hipsters and sabreuers are the local community theater.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

El Spamo posted:

sabreuers are the local community theater.
based on the only sabreuse I knew personally, I'm going with "short heavily muscled lesbians with anger issues"

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001

El Spamo posted:

Really though, if you intended to compete in a weapon it pays to get the equipment designed for it. Then again, I fence epee which is pretty much the flannel-wearing rednecks of the fencing world.

Foilists are hipsters and sabreuers are the local community theater.
Nah, I'm not competitive, it's more that there are a few sabreurs at my club who drag me into it sometimes, just messing about. We have plenty of club cuffs that I can borrow, and I prefer epee to sabre anyway, so maybe I'll get a nice ordinary glove.

Did I tell you the joke about the sabreur?
Never mind, there's not much point to it. :shepicide:

Crazy Achmed fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Feb 24, 2015

Riven
Apr 22, 2002
I still have my missing link shirt somewhere with the sabre fencer in the middle of the progression.

Buried alive
Jun 8, 2009

Crazy Achmed posted:

Did I tell you the joke about the sabreur?
Never mind, there's not much point to it. :shepicide:

I can understand why some people like sabre. It has the edge over the other weapons.

Keldoclock
Jan 5, 2014

by zen death robot

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



Cutting practice with two different longswords. The first video is with my sword, an Albion Crecy, and the second is using a friend's Albion Count.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi7zuY-I-c0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UFzBmhcz7M

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Verisimilidude posted:

Cutting practice with two different longswords. The first video is with my sword, an Albion Crecy, and the second is using a friend's Albion Count.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi7zuY-I-c0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UFzBmhcz7M

It seems like you have enough space to incorporate footwork (passes, steps) in your cuts. I think that would be more valuable than standing still. Sort of like shadow boxing.

Nektu
Jul 4, 2007

FUKKEN FUUUUUUCK
Cybernetic Crumb

thrakkorzog posted:

Sorry. I was thinking of Cobra-Khai Dojo 'sweep the the leg' BS. I was watching the Karate Kid the other night. Against a wrestler or an MMA fighter, yeah, someone in a fencing stance would get knocked down pretty quick.
Thats what the sword (and its reach) is for.

Closing the distance enough to knock somebody down while he has up to 1.5 meters of bladed weapon (plus the length of his arms) between himself and you is very hard to impossible to do without sustaning a horrible injury/death in the process (unless the fencer fucks up ofc or you are wearing appropriate armor).

Nektu fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Mar 2, 2015

ScratchAndSniff
Sep 28, 2008

This game stinks

Nektu posted:

Thats what the sword (and its reach) is for.

Closing the distance enough to knock somebody down while he has up to 1.5 meters of bladed weapon (plus the length of his arms) between himself and you is very hard to impossible to do without sustaning a horrible injury/death in the process (unless the fencer fucks up ofc or you are wearing appropriate armor).

Wait, wait... You can bring a sword to wrestling and MMA matches? Why hasn't anyone told me this???

married but discreet
May 7, 2005


Taco Defender
I think this discussion is about a hypothetical where an epee fencer without weapon would go up against someone who is trained in punching and kicking people. Yeah they're gonna lose, no matter how good their footwork is.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



Rodrigo Diaz posted:

It seems like you have enough space to incorporate footwork (passes, steps) in your cuts. I think that would be more valuable than standing still. Sort of like shadow boxing.

Working on them in isolation helps me focus on hip rotation more. With step is a different process.

Nektu
Jul 4, 2007

FUKKEN FUUUUUUCK
Cybernetic Crumb

ScratchAndSniff posted:

Wait, wait... You can bring a sword to wrestling and MMA matches? Why hasn't anyone told me this???
:)

Or maybe I missed parts of the discussion.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

It seems like you have enough space to incorporate footwork (passes, steps) in your cuts. I think that would be more valuable than standing still. Sort of like shadow boxing.
Yep, you're right, but chances are here that they're deliberately focusing on just getting the arm movement right. Generally, when I'm practising I'll do the same for a bit, then repeat but with footwork added as well.

This was posted on a friend's club facebook feed a while back - brutal stuff. This is probably why the Russians are so good... I've been wanting to try it at my club but it might take some more convincing.
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=579478288787492

Crazy Achmed fucked around with this message at 11:13 on Mar 3, 2015

Above Our Own
Jun 24, 2009

by Shine

ScratchAndSniff posted:

Wait, wait... You can bring a sword to wrestling and MMA matches? Why hasn't anyone told me this???
You can do whatever you want, whenever you want to do it IF youre an expert swordsman

married but discreet
May 7, 2005


Taco Defender
I'm looking into learning some Rapier, but the only place that offers lessons around here is the SCA. How much dorky fuckery should I expect?

El Spamo
Aug 21, 2003

Fuss and misery
lots

Zeitgueist
Aug 8, 2003

by Ralp

IM_DA_DECIDER posted:

I'm looking into learning some Rapier, but the only place that offers lessons around here is the SCA. How much dorky fuckery should I expect?

Where are you located?

If you're looking for historical they may be the only option, but there are a lot of new clubs even in the past year all around the country.

And SCA depends highly on the group region. In my area there's a big crossover with folks who really know their poo poo, but that's no true everywhere.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



IM_DA_DECIDER posted:

I'm looking into learning some Rapier, but the only place that offers lessons around here is the SCA. How much dorky fuckery should I expect?

From my experience you're unlikely to get legit rapier fencing experience with the SCA. They're probably fine as a whole, but you're less likely to get actual martial training. I suppose it's better than nothing, but I would keep looking. And who knows, like Zeitgueist said they could be one of the (few) SCA groups that practices actual fencing.

ScratchAndSniff
Sep 28, 2008

This game stinks

Verisimilidude posted:

From my experience you're unlikely to get legit rapier fencing experience with the SCA. They're probably fine as a whole, but you're less likely to get actual martial training. I suppose it's better than nothing, but I would keep looking. And who knows, like Zeitgueist said they could be one of the (few) SCA groups that practices actual fencing.

Agree 100%. SCA varies by region, but in general they don't place much effort into historical accuracy.

As for the dorkery, I hear that also varies by region, but you will be expected to dress up, to an extent, for the events, which are about a lot more than just fencing. If that turns you off, I recommend looking elsewhere.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001

Verisimilidude posted:

From my experience you're unlikely to get legit rapier fencing experience with the SCA. They're probably fine as a whole, but you're less likely to get actual martial training. I suppose it's better than nothing, but I would keep looking. And who knows, like Zeitgueist said they could be one of the (few) SCA groups that practices actual fencing.
Hey, if you want to do that write-up on historical fencing, I'll add it into the OP or something.

How much standardisation is there with weapons in historical? It seems like there's a hell of a lot of variety; do you get a lot of choice in terms of weight and proportions?

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



Crazy Achmed posted:

Hey, if you want to do that write-up on historical fencing, I'll add it into the OP or something.

How much standardisation is there with weapons in historical? It seems like there's a hell of a lot of variety; do you get a lot of choice in terms of weight and proportions?

I'll work on it today!

And not really. At least for longsword, there are many different profiles, weights, points of balance, proportions, etc. Some longswords have side rings, some don't. Some are heavy, some are light. Some are really long and some are relatively short. There's a certain amount of preference involved in choosing a training or cutting sword.

married but discreet
May 7, 2005


Taco Defender

Zeitgueist posted:

Where are you located?

If you're looking for historical they may be the only option, but there are a lot of new clubs even in the past year all around the country.

And SCA depends highly on the group region. In my area there's a big crossover with folks who really know their poo poo, but that's no true everywhere.

I'm in Edmonton :/. I actually heard good things about the people there in regards to personality.

Knowing nothing about rapier fencing whatsoever, how can I tell if they are doing it properly? What would doing it historically accurate even mean? How does rapier fencing technique differ from olympic fencing?

El Spamo
Aug 21, 2003

Fuss and misery
Historically accurate I would presume to mean that it follows closely to the techniques and styles that were used during the height of the rapier's popularity. I don't know much about rapier so I can't really speak for its techniques but I can speak to olympic fencing.

Olympic fencing is first and foremost a sport. That means that it's concerned with using techniques that work best, right now, within the equipment used and competition format. There's no concern for historical accuracy, since history isn't important, winning is. And since exploiting edge cases and pushing the envelope allows you to squeeze out the extra point over your competitors it's the fencers who can push that extra little bit who win tournaments. Don't get me wrong, it takes a solid foundation in the basics to get there, but it's the last little bit that can eke out a victory like fleche'ing into your opponent repeatedly to push a series of double touches when you're one point ahead (got to the round of 8 over a guy with a really good parry that way. I got up one, and then doubled him out by provoking counters by charging for like, 5 touches in a row). So what if your opponent got a point, it's the first to 15 to win that counts.

That why you see things like the foil flick having been so popular because it scores points legitimately within the rules however weird and frustrating it is for the competitors. Epee seems suicidal because the use of the counterattack allows competitors to score points off their opponent's attack by making a touch on the hand or arm a half-second before their opponent's touch lands on their torso. Deadly stupid historically, but the counterattacker's touch on the forearm registered first so they win the point.


Olympic and historical fencing are different in goal and execution, but both are fun and great to do and share a common ancestor. If you like the idea of engaging in a competition to see who is the stronger, faster, smarter, cannier, cleverer fencer then olympic fencing is for you. If you want to relive the artistry, technique, and history of dueling while resurrecting and preserving a massively influential art the historical fencing will scratch that itch.

ScratchAndSniff
Sep 28, 2008

This game stinks

IM_DA_DECIDER posted:

I'm in Edmonton :/. I actually heard good things about the people there in regards to personality.

Knowing nothing about rapier fencing whatsoever, how can I tell if they are doing it properly? What would doing it historically accurate even mean? How does rapier fencing technique differ from olympic fencing?

If you want to sperge about historical accuracy, ask them to quote their sources when they teach techniques. There are a lot of translated manuals nowadays which you can get pretty easily, so if they answer with "we are doing this because it works" or "this is the way I learned it" they are probably just teaching sport fencing with rapiers.

Not that there is anything wrong with that, of course, if you just want yo have fun.

I really liked Tom Leoni's translations, when I was into that world, so if you are interested in reading up on rapier techniques before you get started I would recommend his stuff. Someone who has studied this stuff recently can probably offer other suggestions.

married but discreet
May 7, 2005


Taco Defender
I've done olympic fencing for many years, so I know how game-y it is. Ain't gonna pistol grip twist turn flick someone with a rapier...
I'm more interested in the actual bladework differences. A rapier is much heavier than a foil or even epee, so I imagine it's much more about prise de fer than fast disengages?

ScratchAndSniff posted:

If you want to sperge about historical accuracy, ask them to quote their sources when they teach techniques. There are a lot of translated manuals nowadays which you can get pretty easily, so if they answer with "we are doing this because it works" or "this is the way I learned it" they are probably just teaching sport fencing with rapiers.


Sport fencing with rapiers would be fine with me, even if it's just a less suicidal version of normal epee.

married but discreet fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Mar 4, 2015

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012

Jherek Swanger's and William E. Wilson's translation of Ridolfo Capoferro's rapier manual is free to use for noncommercial purposes, so Roger Kay edited it into an absolutely gorgeous book, also free. Contains high-resolution scans of the illustrations from different editions of the original book.

Siivola fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Mar 4, 2015

Invincible Spleen
Nov 13, 2008

HEY, TAXI!
The SCA group I got my start in rapier with is definitely not focused on historical styles. If you end up having to teach yourself, the Capo Ferro translation Siivola posted is a great resource. I also highly recommend picking up a copy of Guy Windsor's The Duellist's Companion, which is a modern English training guide for Capo Ferro's system. I found the videos produced by Academie Duello to be really helpful for my own learning, too. You don't have to pay for access if you're patient - the lessons are on rotation and change every Monday.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012

Invincible Spleen posted:

I also highly recommend picking up a copy of Guy Windsor's The Duellist's Companion, which is a modern English training guide for Capo Ferro's system.
While I'm all for throwing Windsor money (he is the coolest of Guys :downsrim:) I think it's fair to warn y'all he's planning to write a new rapier guide sometime soonish. The Companion is probably not terrible by any means, but in a year or three there will be something even better around.

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Invincible Spleen
Nov 13, 2008

HEY, TAXI!

Siivola posted:

While I'm all for throwing Windsor money (he is the coolest of Guys :downsrim:) I think it's fair to warn y'all he's planning to write a new rapier guide sometime soonish. The Companion is probably not terrible by any means, but in a year or three there will be something even better around.

Devon Boorman of Acedemie Duello also has a rapier book on the way!

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