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Murmur Twin posted:I feel like anything said in my masondoc has a chance of being forwarded to the scumdoc, so talking in there isn't productive. oh yeah, this since it's anonymous, i don't particularly care about visiting the docs until it's time to vote mason-docs are super useful if you're trying to catch someone acting differently 1on1 vs. in-thread but not when the entire game can co-ordinate oot
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Mar 7, 2015 20:33
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| # ? Apr 24, 2024 00:09 |
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I've also been trying to think of ways to break the game, but again without knowing the scum powers, it's hard to know what is or isn't a good idea. Like if we have a confirmed town, everyone give that person their ballot and they can do all the cop/doc/roleblocking for the thread to be sure scum don't mess it up. But if scum have a stealing or redirecting power then that could give them all the ballots. I do think scum would have limited shots on their powers, but without information it's hard to know. The instinct is to give all the information that you can, so it's difficult not to without knowing why. Another thought I had is that once we have multiple people confirmed town the the doc group should all randomly vote between those who are confirmed town and not tell anybody who they are voting for, so scum has to guess. I think we should play a content game for now though which will also help determine actions later. Who would you roleblock and who would you cop/doc? I would cop/doc Ernie because I think confirmed town Ernie would be very useful in this game. I would roleblock EP, I don't like his WM vote and his posting has been a little off to me. More of a gut read, but best I got for now.
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Mar 7, 2015 20:44
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Oh, I just had more thoughts, but they are going to depend on whether we want to be open with information or closed with information. If we decide open is good, we should roleblock someone in the roleblock room to make sure the doc or cop isn't accidentally blocked. Especially early on. If we decide closed is good, the cop should say their result anonymously in their doc and someone else can report it to the thread. It's really hard to know without knowing which way to go on this. I'm leaning let's just get it all out in the open though. This is democracy mafia, should we take a vote?
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Mar 7, 2015 20:47
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Asiina posted:Oh, I just had more thoughts, but they are going to depend on whether we want to be open with information or closed with information. Closed w/ information. We don't need to know who had what ballot to decide targets in this thread. I think it's fine if someone who HAD a ballot reveals the results, though, since they don't necessarily have the same ballot again on the next day. No reason to announce in the cop vote doc, especially since they can only do so if they have a cop ballot again. Also, one thing we should be cognizant of is that, if a scum receives the cop, they can lie about the result. This is more of a problem later in the game than earlier though, imo we shouldn't trust unconfirmed cops at all (even ones performed in the past) if it's lylo or mylo.
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Mar 7, 2015 20:58
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I like that we immediately have something to discuss that isn't jokevoting.
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Mar 7, 2015 21:00
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Some setup spec: Maybe two scumteams of 3 each? If not, I'm willing to bet there's a town vig and/or third party serial killer/some funky role. This way there are benefits to the mafia controlling the abilities besides wrestling away town control.
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Mar 7, 2015 21:03
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What happens if a player controls multiple ballots for a room? Will we know if that happens?
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Mar 7, 2015 21:06
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Epsilon Plus posted:What happens if a player controls multiple ballots for a room? Will we know if that happens? We wouldn't know it, I don't think, but I'm pretty sure this exact situation is going to be common.
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Mar 7, 2015 21:07
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Someone is going to have multiple ballots after the first day. The 15 ballots are constant but going to be spread among the survivors.
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Mar 7, 2015 21:14
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Asiina posted:Oh, I just had more thoughts, but they are going to depend on whether we want to be open with information or closed with information. Yeah, I think our thoughts on who is scum and objective stuff about town strategy should be put out there, but who we actually are voting for/passing to to stay secret until the information can be used more effectively by town later in the game. quote:Who would you roleblock and who would you cop/doc? I think I just realized that cop/doc is not necessarily the best strategy. Not only does it make it harder for scum to plan around if we go for two targets, but I feel like it's in our best interest to cop scum while doc'ing the likely NK target (ie, not scum). I think we vote for the scummiest person, cop the second-scummiest, RB the third-scummiest, and doc the most likely NK. Right now I feel good on JJ, Ernie, and Asii, and there are plenty of people who haven't posted yet so it's hard to have a solid case at the moment.
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Mar 7, 2015 21:22
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jon joe posted:Closed w/ information. We don't need to know who had what ballot to decide targets in this thread. I think it's fine if someone who HAD a ballot reveals the results, though, since they don't necessarily have the same ballot again on the next day. No reason to announce in the cop vote doc, especially since they can only do so if they have a cop ballot again. I don't like this post at all. More and more I feel like keeping things quiet just gives scum somewhere to hide. I also don't like how you are suggesting being closed with information but also that once it's the next day there is no issue with knowing what happened the previous day. We don't know what powers scum have, we don't know what is or isn't important which is why I think either complete silence about who is where or complete openness is the way to go and anything else suggests outside information.
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Mar 7, 2015 21:24
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Murmur Twin posted:Yeah, I think our thoughts on who is scum and objective stuff about town strategy should be put out there, but who we actually are voting for/passing to to stay secret until the information can be used more effectively by town later in the game. I think protecting the cop target is good for the first night if only to be sure we have at least one confirmed town or a scum at the beginning of D2. Then after that the docs can choose either the already confirmed town or the person being copped and so on and so forth.
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Mar 7, 2015 21:27
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Asiina posted:I don't like this post at all. I understand what what you are saying, but I do not agree; may I ask you some questions? In what way do you believe closed information may give scum somewhere to hide? Also, what possible roles do you foresee influencing ballots some way based on the original holder after they have already be given (aka, next day)? I guess there could be a third party who wins by naming all original ballot holders, but I don't think MMM would put something like that in this game.
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Mar 7, 2015 21:30
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If we don't say anything about who we are sending or sent our ballots to then scum don't have to account for ballots. Scum could steal them or scum could redirect them and nobody would know. Also if a scum flips there is no way to know who they got their ballot from or sent their ballot to if it's all after the fact. If everyone claims their ballots each day we can always account for all 15. If ballots are missing then we know which rooms have been compromised. If I say I'm giving my roleblocker ballot to Ernie and he doesn't get it we know I'm lying, Ernie's lying, or someone messed with the transaction, which isn't useful on its own but we can know for sure that 1 of the rooeblocker votes is compromised. As for multi-day powers I don't know. I can't think of anything in particular, but I have no reason to believe the next day will be safe. I just think saying what we did after the fact isn't as useful as announcing it before.
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Mar 7, 2015 21:42
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Asiina posted:If we don't say anything about who we are sending or sent our ballots to then scum don't have to account for ballots. Scum could steal them or scum could redirect them and nobody would know. Also if a scum flips there is no way to know who they got their ballot from or sent their ballot to if it's all after the fact. We have to say after the fact, though, to announce the results? Sorry, I think there's a confusion here; I'm merely talking about a lack of risk in a closed-information system when the person who had performed the power announces it in this thread, since they do not necessarily have the same power again. I agree, confirming ballot paths after the fact is useless, due to the incomplete info caused by death. Your method for revealing info to account for missing ballots is interesting, I did not think of it that way. However, it makes an assumption that knowing all the ballot holders and ballot-giving targets is not advantageous to scum and that they cannot take advantage of that information in some way. Which, due to MMM's warning, it's a real possibly that scum do have that power. Whether it's 1-shot or not though, it's effectively 1-shot; either they use it once and we realize it, so we stop announcing ballots, or they save it for a key day, say the day before lylo.
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Mar 7, 2015 21:47
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jon joe posted:We have to say after the fact, though, to announce the results? Sorry, I think there's a confusion here; I'm merely talking about a lack of risk in a closed-information system when the person who had performed the power announces it in this thread, since they do not necessarily have the same power again. I agree, confirming ballot paths after the fact is useless, due to the incomplete info caused by death. Sorry if this post is confusing, please ask me anything you are unclear on, Asiina and/or other readers.
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Mar 7, 2015 21:48
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Also, I think MMM said in the OP that if the ballot-receiving target dies, their ballots are jettisoned to random players. So at the very least, should we diplomatically decide to keep ballots open, we should keep an open spread with no player receiving more than 1 ballot to prevent death jettisons.
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Mar 7, 2015 21:50
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Wait, as soon as players die, clumping of ballots is inevitable. Ugh, annoying.
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Mar 7, 2015 21:52
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Clumping is inevitable, but openness does help us keep it more spread, especially between rooms.
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Mar 7, 2015 21:55
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My only concern with a truly open sharing of information is that it would allow scum, whatever their powers are, to be more efficient at using them. The roleblock power seems like it could be potentially very powerful, if the scum are the ones whose abilities are more tied to a single user, but that with the random distribution of action, that it could also prove to be accidentally disastrous. Still, I don't think there's an option to not use a given power on a night.
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Mar 7, 2015 21:55
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Asiina posted:Clumping is inevitable, but openness does help us keep it more spread, especially between rooms. Right. To summarize, the advantage of openness is an even vote spread and ballot accountability, while the disadvantage is scum possibly having mass manipulation when they have access to all-open information. In my opinion, the disadvantage outweighs the advantage. Would you agree this accurate, Asiina? I look forward to hearing the opinions of others. Meinberg posted:Still, I don't think there's an option to not use a given power on a night. I think you are correct.
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Mar 7, 2015 21:57
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If we publicly announce who we're all voting for, scum could do some type of role block or vote shift move to block it. However, even if we don't announce it in this thread, but just chat in the docs, all information would likely easily get back to scum. But if we all vote randomly to keep our choices secret, two scum can collaborate to control the room. Therefore, I think we may as well make the decisions from here in this thread. Maybe we don't need to announce which of us is in which polling station, but we may as well make our selections in here. (I also considered that if two scum are in a room and have a vote blocking power, they can control the room regardless. If three scum are by random chance in the same room, which could be possible even this round, they can control the room.)
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Mar 7, 2015 22:00
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jon joe posted:Right. To summarize, the advantage of openness is an even vote spread and ballot accountability, while the disadvantage is scum possibly having mass manipulation when they have access to all-open information. In my opinion, the disadvantage outweighs the advantage. Would you agree this accurate, Asiina? I agree, but think the advantage outweighs the disadvantage. I also want to hear more from everyone though.
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Mar 7, 2015 22:01
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I opened a reply window before I went out to get snow off the car so there are like 10 posts I hadn't read before I wrote that. Also, did Day 1 actually start yet?
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Mar 7, 2015 22:01
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Fast Luck posted:I opened a reply window before I went out to get snow off the car so there are like 10 posts I hadn't read before I wrote that. Yes.
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Mar 7, 2015 22:02
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Ernie. posted:this is a scum post Honestly your opinion on me sounds manufactured. You disagree with my strategy, sure thing no problem. I was suggesting holding off claims till D3 because I'm paranoid about what scum can do with their knowledge, especially if we're also announcing who we passed ballots to. Saying that I'm trying to delay claims to sabotage town... I really don't see it. If true that'd be a stupidly transparent attempt at sabotage for a one day claim delay... It really sounds like you're trying to find something to draw suspicion to me for. ##vote Ernie
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Mar 7, 2015 23:06
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i'm in a room
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Mar 7, 2015 23:08
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wall monitor posted:Honestly your opinion on me sounds manufactured. You disagree with my strategy, sure thing no problem. I was suggesting holding off claims till D3 because I'm paranoid about what scum can do with their knowledge, especially if we're also announcing who we passed ballots to. your first sentence contradicts the post i replied to. the post i replied to specifically says that we should withhold announcing the ballot abilities (it's independent of the ballot passing mechanic). there's no way the claims would have been held till d3 because everyone on d2 would have announced what ballot they held the previous day anyway. i didn't say delaying claims sabotages town, i said it doesn't give us an advantage. and announcing that you want to delay the information gathering phase has no townie motivation whatsoever and i'm keeping where my vote is because you've intentionally misconstrued everything in my post to create a narrative where you could vote me so okay there
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Mar 7, 2015 23:11
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did you honestly read my post or are you just looking for ~general mafia concepts~ to counter-vote me for?
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Mar 7, 2015 23:12
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Ernie. posted:your first sentence contradicts the post i replied to. the post i replied to specifically says that we should withhold announcing the ballot abilities (it's independent of the ballot passing mechanic). there's no way the claims would have been held till d3 because everyone on d2 would have announced what ballot they held the previous day anyway. Okay this was my bad, I wasn't looking too closely at the post you were quoting and thought it was the one where I was calling for D3 claims ##unvote Sorry
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Mar 7, 2015 23:12
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wall monitor get a backbone
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Mar 7, 2015 23:21
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Friends, before we get too into mafia, I want to talk about the mechanics and your opinions on them.
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Mar 7, 2015 23:22
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Hal Incandenza posted:wall monitor get a backbone I really did make a mistake, it was a couple of hours between posting and then reading Ernie's reactions to them and so I got all confused and 
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Mar 7, 2015 23:24
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I'm mostly embarassed and unhappy right now
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Mar 7, 2015 23:28
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Asiina posted:Friends, before we get too into mafia, I want to talk about the mechanics and your opinions on them. I, too, want opinions, but it's fine if people get into mafia.
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Mar 7, 2015 23:41
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I think wall monitor is genuine in this interaction. CCKeane fanclub represent.
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Mar 7, 2015 23:44
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I also suggested a content gameAsiina posted:I think we should play a content game for now though which will also help determine actions later.
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Mar 7, 2015 23:44
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Asiina posted:I also suggested a content game Cop/doc a high quality player. Roleblock second most-wanted cuddle.
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Mar 7, 2015 23:46
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jon joe posted:Roleblock second most-wanted cuddle. Though this does open to scum vote manipulation, hmmmm.
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Mar 7, 2015 23:48
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jon joe posted:Cop/doc a high quality player. This isn't what I asked.
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Mar 7, 2015 23:52
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