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SYSV Fanfic posted:First janitoring in 4 weeks. The wine PPA has a conflict with the fglrx packages. fglrx is so bad you're better off using your amd/ati card as a dumb framebuffer with an open source driver. at least it won't crash the system that way.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:09
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Soricidus posted:picture, if you will, a platform that your company has no compelling reason to care about because only a tiny handful of hobbyists use it for games and they all already bought your competitor's product anyway nvidia has a real market for its drivers. people actually buy quadros + linux for use in embedded stuff (e.g. arena projectors, VR bullshit, teleconferencing rooms) and the always-tiny, always-shrinking workstation niche (real time NLE, cad, 3d poo poo for petroleum industries) i guess those markets are too small to split two ways, because amd clearly does not take them seriously
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Mar 10, 2015 16:12
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so here's the thing: you've been suckered by nvidia, and you don't know it. writing a fast, compliant opengl driver is hard, and nvidia actually sucks as much as amd at it, but nvidia has the have the game developers in bed, so nvidia's approach is "hotpatch the game at runtime to make it fast with our opengl stack". that's what all those "performance tweaks" you see on windows do. so, nvidia built up a giant pile of hacks to make things go more than 20fps, and amd/intel don't play that game. so of course what you hear is "amd is trash at writing drivers" amd solved this problem by making mantle and then throwing it at the khronos board, and that transformed into vulkan. nvidia, of course, wanted to shut it down, because them being the only people to make a sort-of-working driver gave the the perception they were uber rock gods and nobody else could even step. and nvidia doesn't want to lose that marketing edge, and that power, so they tried really hard to keep it down and keep ogl on course. but after all the arm gpu vendors appeared and were really excited by it, and have a voting say, *and* after valve/blizzard/transgaming were finally given voting seats on khronos (khronos had a policy for a while about vendors being the only people that actually matter for new tech), *and* after nvidia had a revolt internally with their tegra team which also has a ground-up rewrite of their driver (blob driver is just too big for the android platform), *and* after the momentum built up around dx12, nvidia changed its course because it realized that they can't keep the ogl marketing edge forever. but the "amd is bad and intel is bad" meme will still live on, because marketing is powerful
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Mar 10, 2015 16:20
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Suspicious Dish posted:but the "amd is bad and intel is bad" meme will still live on, because marketing is powerful intel on linux runs sc2 at 1 fps intel on windows runs the same game on the same hardware at 30-60 fps there is a performance penalty between linux/windows in the nvidia driver, too, but it's not 97%.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:22
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right, you're comparing the licensed driver (you think intel wrote the windows driver? lmao) with the open-source driver. yes, mesa and the intel driver are slow. as mentioned, that's because opengl is super hard to make run fast. vulkan can fix a lot of that.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:25
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it is really depressing that the vulkan promo material uses a photo of a unix workstation last sold in 2006, with a 100% fixed-function graphics pipeline.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:25
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Suspicious Dish posted:right, you're comparing the licensed driver (you think intel wrote the windows driver? lmao) with the open-source driver. yes, mesa and the intel driver are slow. i'm ok with the "why" but it doesn't change the "what" i have not been suckered my marketing material. in real life, right now, today, nvidia is tens of times faster than the competition on linux. i'd be very happy to see that change, but it's not going to happen overnight.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:27
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:it is really depressing that the vulkan promo material uses a photo of a unix workstation last sold in 2006, with a 100% fixed-function graphics pipeline. you mean the one on the bottom left, where directly under it it says "in the last 22 years since opengl was invented the architecture of gpus and platforms has changed radically"???
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Mar 10, 2015 16:30
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Suspicious Dish posted:you mean the one on the bottom left, where directly under it it says "in the last 22 years since opengl was invented the architecture of gpus and platforms has changed radically"??? oh this is intended to be a timeline. i thought it was just a set of things that graphics apis ran on. the two red triangles don't really read "timeline" to me. that makes it much better and cooler
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Mar 10, 2015 16:34
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Someone find me a fast nvidia desktop card that isn't huge and loud. Right now I'm using an ati 7750, which is okay but the main reason I picked that particular card is it was one of the only reasonably modern cards I could find that wasn't two slots with a huge fan. I'd gladly swap for a comparable nvidia which would actually have full 3d support for me (although they'll add the ati eventually I'm sure). Also all graphics stuff is bad and the less time I think about it the happier I am. Remember manually editing modelines?
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Mar 10, 2015 16:35
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The Maxwell 970 cards are all good idk, they got me to switch from ATI. I mean they're still huge, but they run pretty cool and their fans aren't loud really.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:39
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:oh this is intended to be a timeline. i thought it was just a set of things that graphics apis ran on. the two red triangles don't really read "timeline" to me. yeah, it's not a great slide, but it's supposed to represent gl4 on the top (gaming apis), gles under that (phone apis) and legacy workstation gl on the bottom (autocad compat mode). they talked more about that in the presentation.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:50
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:intel on linux runs sc2 at 1 fps Simcity 2000 right?
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Mar 10, 2015 16:58
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Broken Machine posted:Someone find me a fast nvidia desktop card that isn't huge and loud. Right now I'm using an ati 7750, which is okay but the main reason I picked that particular card is it was one of the only reasonably modern cards I could find that wasn't two slots with a huge fan. I'd gladly swap for a comparable nvidia which would actually have full 3d support for me (although they'll add the ati eventually I'm sure). Also all graphics stuff is bad and the less time I think about it the happier I am. Remember manually editing modelines? i think all fast cards are huge, though nvidia cards post 600-series haven't been too loud. the gtx750 are the current short/single-slot/htpc nvidia card of choice, should be a couple steps up performance wise from the 7750
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Mar 10, 2015 17:45
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Suspicious Dish posted:so, nvidia built up a giant pile of hacks to make things go more than 20fps, and amd/intel don't play that game. so of course what you hear is "amd is trash at writing drivers" someone who interned at nvidia around the time vista launched wrote about just how bad it actually is: http://www.gamedev.net/topic/666419-what-are-your-opinions-on-dx12vulkanmantle/#entry5215019 that said, amd drivers are trash. running metro redux on fglrx tops out at ~25 fps whether you have a 7850 or a 290. last year during the whole azdo push they spent months telling people to use multidraw-indirect when they didn't support it. when they finally released drivers that claimed support actually trying to use it caused a crash on both windows and linux.
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Mar 10, 2015 19:23
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Suspicious Dish posted:right, you're comparing the licensed driver (you think intel wrote the windows driver? lmao) with the open-source driver. yes, mesa and the intel driver are slow. whoever writes the intel windows driver is an idiot, and intel loses interest in supporting their drivers way too soon
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Mar 10, 2015 19:51
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:intel on linux runs sc2 at 1 fps get a dreamcast if you want to play sc2 lol e: or is it the ancient sc2 for dos
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Mar 10, 2015 21:18
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normal person: hmm amd runs this game at 20 fps, but a comparable nvidia runs it at 60. guess ill get the nvidia, it is a lot better in real world situations that I'm going to use it for. idiot yosposters: ACTUALLY amd isnt bad they just dont cheat like nvidia amd is liek just as good but they have a bad repuatation
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Mar 10, 2015 22:00
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i'm curious to see the Vulkan specification or really even any meat beyond marketing glossy bullshit i'm guessing it's going to require a shitton of boilerplate querying the number of available alus and setting up dataflow graphs and othersuch garbage
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Mar 10, 2015 22:21
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There was plenty of meat at the talk I attended. Yes, it requires you to manage the GPU more of yourself and requires you to create command buffers and dispatch queues. This is a good thing.
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Mar 10, 2015 22:28
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what kind of meat. kebabs? ribs? brisket?
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Mar 10, 2015 22:31
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Suspicious Dish posted:There was plenty of meat at the talk I attended. Yes, it requires you to manage the GPU more of yourself and requires you to create command buffers and dispatch queues. This is a good thing. i assume we'll see middleware vendors who pop up, and they can take over the role that the giant miserable nvidia blob plays today
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Mar 10, 2015 22:34
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:i assume we'll see middleware vendors who pop up, and they can take over the role that the giant miserable nvidia blob plays today As long as the status quo is preserved by giant binary middleware blobs.
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Mar 10, 2015 22:36
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Suspicious Dish posted:There was plenty of meat at the talk I attended. Yes, it requires you to manage the GPU more of yourself and requires you to create command buffers and dispatch queues. This is a good thing. well, gnome 3 is almost fully functional now so it sounds like you guys have just the excuse you need to immediately cease all development and start a from-scratch rewrite called gnome 4!
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Mar 10, 2015 22:36
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SYSV Fanfic posted:As long as the status quo is preserved by giant binary middleware blobs. having the middleware to drive graphics separated from the hardware is a really good thing. there are huge incentives to make middleware work on linux. writing software targeting a specific middleware won't require your users to buy from a specific graphics vendor. it will make the market way more competitive amd and intel drivers for linux might actually be good if they don't have to implement the entire opengl kit and kaboodle
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Mar 10, 2015 22:42
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:having the middleware to drive graphics separated from the hardware is a really good thing. there are huge incentives to make middleware work on linux. writing software targeting a specific middleware won't require your users to buy from a specific graphics vendor. As long as nethack continues to work.
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Mar 10, 2015 22:43
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Wouldn't want any broken workflows.
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Mar 10, 2015 22:44
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right, i think we're going to see vendors implement opengl on top of vulkan that aren't nvidia / amd. and it's a good idea. reminder that nvidia got fairly fast 2d hw-accelerated vector graphics done, but since it's tied up in their opengl driver as an extension for no loving reason, nobody uses it. i'm hoping they can decouple that from their driver.
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Mar 10, 2015 22:44
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well, I'd assume they also implement Direct2D
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Mar 10, 2015 23:10
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Direct2D is actually quite slow.
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Mar 10, 2015 23:13
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Proprietary drivers have helped me to hit a full 60fps for a game I am emulating. Fgldsfjksfdx can't be so bad. 
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Mar 11, 2015 01:35
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>>gently caress mailbox
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Mar 11, 2015 02:28
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consume the mailbox for nutrition
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Mar 11, 2015 02:46
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:amd and intel drivers for linux might actually be good if they don't have to implement the entire opengl kit and kaboodle valve demoed a vulkan port of dota 2 running on a prototype driver written by lunarg, which will probably be the first driver available once the spec is released. it's already running quite well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Hth4u65zfc i wonder if anyone will bother to continue working on mesa once vulkan is out. most game developers are ready to dump opengl and d3d11 as soon as possible and the workstation world is all nvidia.
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Mar 11, 2015 03:07
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i'd imagine that mesa grows a vulkan backend, and that's the end of that
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Mar 11, 2015 04:05
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Do you mean Mesa would target Vulkan? Or did you mean a Vulkan state tracker for Gallium? And then a completely different Vulkan implementation for Intel since they still don't use Gallium.
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Mar 11, 2015 04:09
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Gallium is already quite close to Vulkan in a lot of ways. NIR has also been ongoing for a while, and SPIR-V is quite close to NIR. So I meant a new plan: Start taking Gallium and converting it even more towards a Vulkan model. Now take the Vulkan API, and throw that on top of Gallium as a light-weight state tracker. Throw out TGSI, replace it with NIR/SPIR-V. Bonus points if you then then replace Gallium with the Vulkan API entirely. Now you have a bunch of Vulkan drivers, and you take mesa's state tracker and you have compat OpenGL for free. Take Valve's Intel Vulkan driver and throw it in mesa as a Gallium/Vulkan driver. The fate of the classic Intel driver is up to Intel.
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Mar 11, 2015 04:21
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bobbilljim posted:>>gently caress mailbox Its a suprising amount of work to implement this in someone else's inform rewrite of zork. Everyone just pretend like I did it.
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Mar 11, 2015 04:37
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heheheh, he really hosed teh mailbox. wacky as hell
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Mar 11, 2015 04:46
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bobbilljim posted:heheheh, he really hosed teh mailbox. wacky as hell jeeze i wanna mee thtat dick sounds huge, i couldnt ever gently caress a mailbox
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