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Lotish posted:I too thought weapon weight was a reasonable balancing mechanic, but it tended to be handled poorly, as with all women seemingly getting unreasonably low values (Are there exceptions? I have FE8 open right now and Amelia has the highest for the ladies with 11 as a General, while Lute has 3 unpromoted; typical lady value seems to be 5). I was a fan of Build (and Capture) in FE5, because it did grow, so you can have a character that becomes good at captures and heavy weapons (while not automatically also being good at damage because strength does double duty). Off the top of my head, Vaida is a very respectable 11 or 12 or something. Guy is as small as most women at 5, and there are a few more exceptions. A general pattern of women having about Con 5-6 or so and the average man probably having about 7-8 does hold though. And pretty much 100% of the outlier huge characters are men. I consider this reasonable for a few classes like pegasus knights since a very small person is probably the best person to have ride a flying horse, but there's no good reason that female myrmidons and so on should be so tiny.
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Mar 11, 2015 01:18
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| # ? Apr 19, 2024 18:59 |
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Pretty much every myrmidon has lower con than other units on the ground. That's their whole thing, they're fast but weak. Plus they only ever get swords so they don't really need a lot of con anyway.
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Mar 11, 2015 01:24
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My beef with the 9/10 weight system wasn't the continual uptick in capacity, it was tying the uptick into an existing stat. It made melee fighters stop caring about weight, and it made mages care far too much about STR (a stat they didn't even have before). My ideal weight system would be tying capacity into a non-growing CON stat, but making that stat increase by one every N chapter deployments, kinda like Merlinus leveling up. Healthy veteran soldiers in the primes of their lives would start with almost as much CON as they'd ever need, but gain very little more; they're already peaked. The various JRPG child soldiers would start with terrible CON, but gain it quickly.
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Mar 11, 2015 02:17
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The problem with weapon weight is that it's either arbitrary and crippling or completely meaningless.
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Mar 11, 2015 02:26
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The problem with women is their rescue formula is different (read: Worse) for females.
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Mar 11, 2015 02:27
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Dr Pepper posted:The problem with weapon weight is that it's either arbitrary and crippling or completely meaningless. Yep. A growth system tied into a stat that governs nothing else would avoid the two problems. CON sucks because you get a CON score that's kinda meant to represent your character's narrative role, and you're stuck with it forever. 9/10's Strength-based system sucks because warriors need loads and loads of Strength, and mages need none. So there's this weirdo divide between AS. If CON (or something better-named for mages, like Expertise) came back with its own growths, you could have the actual vision: Rookie fighters would start out clumsy and grow into their weapons (regardless of melee/magic type). At the same time, the physical titan would have an edge over the stripling wannabe and the genius wizard would have an edge over the self-taught dilletante - at least until the underdogs caught up. Sorites fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Mar 11, 2015 |
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Mar 11, 2015 02:31
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Dr Pepper posted:The problem with weapon weight is that it's either arbitrary and crippling or completely meaningless. Agreed. It was just a bad system in the first place. 9/10 tried to fix it by binding it to a stat that could actually grow, but then mages got hosed because they had far worse Str, both in start and growth, while everyone else laughed at the idea of weapon weight. Removing it was the only good thing FE11 did. Talking about systems, capturing should totally come back. How come we kept the awful fog of war from FE5, but not the actually cool mechanic? IntSys!
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Mar 11, 2015 02:32
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I actually like weight and disliked its removal from Awakening (I didn't play 11 or 12) because after a while it felt like it didn't matter what weapons I was using, everything was just always going to hit. Now, i didn't play on the very hard difficulties there so maybe you eventually stopped seeing straight 100s for hit rate. Having played the GBA games a fair bit, I think Weight has a place in the series, but IntSys just hasn't handled CON for certain units very well, i.e. the female characters. Also Guy. Myrmidons have a base 8 Con, Guy has 5. Why did they think it was a good idea to give him a -3 CON penalty?
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Mar 11, 2015 02:37
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Weight doesn't have anything to do with your hit rate. What weight effects if your Attack Speed. Attack Speed effects Avoid and Double Attack rates, your AS doesn't have any bearing on if you hit an enemy or not.
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Mar 11, 2015 02:41
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Only one myrmidon has 8 con, and that's Joshua in FE8. Rutger in FE6 has 7, everyone else is 5-6.
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Mar 11, 2015 02:41
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FPzero posted:I actually like weight and disliked its removal from Awakening (I didn't play 11 or 12) because after a while it felt like it didn't matter what weapons I was using, everything was just always going to hit. Now, i didn't play on the very hard difficulties there so maybe you eventually stopped seeing straight 100s for hit rate. Having played the GBA games a fair bit, I think Weight has a place in the series, but IntSys just hasn't handled CON for certain units very well, i.e. the female characters. Also Guy. Myrmidons have a base 8 Con, Guy has 5. Why did they think it was a good idea to give him a -3 CON penalty? Weight never had anything to do with hit rate. Having 100% chance to hit is always an issue in late game Fire Emblem because the games are designed so that even if you gently caress up a lot and get ridiculously bad growths you can still pull your way through. FE7 isn't really any different, if Melth wasn't going for the fairly arbitrary requirements to S rank he could have loaded up Sain and Marcus and easily blitzed his way through every chapter and probably have them capped by now. Its an artifact of how important countering is in the game, and how one great unit will always outperform two good units. If Awakening had a ranking system similar to FE7's, it'd probably be a lot harder to S rank on Lunatic than S ranking Hector Hard mode because without the DLC using most characters is a nightmare. But if you just pile everything onto a few strong, fast dudes and ignore most of your team you can clear everything pretty trivially in almost any Fire Emblem game. I'm pretty sure the only game this isn't true is FE5 where they have a fatigue system and some really funky mechanics. Also technically FE4 because maps are so big and you bring everyone anyways. Zore fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Mar 11, 2015 |
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Mar 11, 2015 02:48
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While weight never did affect accuracy sometimes I wondered if it should because weapons with high weight also tend to have commensurately less accuracy. You could, hypothetically, just have a base accuracy for the to hit formula, and a weapon's weight affects how accurate it is because big heavy poo poo is clumsy to hit with. Then you could introduce bonus accuracy from having more Con/Build than necessary, but that starts to tread on Skill.
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Mar 11, 2015 02:57
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Lotish posted:While weight never did affect accuracy sometimes I wondered if it should because weapons with high weight also tend to have commensurately less accuracy. You could, hypothetically, just have a base accuracy for the to hit formula, and a weapon's weight affects how accurate it is because big heavy poo poo is clumsy to hit with. Then you could introduce bonus accuracy from having more Con/Build than necessary, but that starts to tread on Skill. ... and serves to gently caress over low con characters even more. I mean its not enough now that they can't double anything, but now they can't even hit with a single attack? I guess if you value ~*realism*~ in your magic dragon games it makes sense, but it also means female characters get even more hilariously hosed over. Con is already a really binary enough/not enough switch that serves to punish almost exclusively the female half of the cast. Tanking their accuracy and giving more to the people already best off on top of that is a terrible idea from any sort of gameplay perspective. I mean imagine if that was in effect in this most recent chapter. Isadora comes with poo poo stats, a sword she can't double with and also now can't even hit accurately with.
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Mar 11, 2015 03:06
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FPzero posted:I actually like weight and disliked its removal from Awakening (I didn't play 11 or 12) because after a while it felt like it didn't matter what weapons I was using, everything was just always going to hit. Now, i didn't play on the very hard difficulties there so maybe you eventually stopped seeing straight 100s for hit rate. Having played the GBA games a fair bit, I think Weight has a place in the series, but IntSys just hasn't handled CON for certain units very well, i.e. the female characters. Also Guy. Myrmidons have a base 8 Con, Guy has 5. Why did they think it was a good idea to give him a -3 CON penalty? FP please, we made weight penalties reduce damage. Do you even know your own drat hack? 
Artix fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Mar 11, 2015 |
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Mar 11, 2015 03:07
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Maybe female units having low con wouldn't be an issue if there was no weight (or if they just had the same amounts of con because it's a dumb system but whatever) I don't like weight or con, because I feel weapons should have more creative downsides to them than just making you slower. Like more devil axes. And more triangle reversers, where if you're not careful you could take a hit from the thing you're now weak to. Hell give me magic that saps my health but does more damage.
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Mar 11, 2015 03:15
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FPzero posted:I actually like weight and disliked its removal from Awakening (I didn't play 11 or 12) because after a while it felt like it didn't matter what weapons I was using, everything was just always going to hit.
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Mar 11, 2015 03:17
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Artix posted:FP please, we made weight penalties reduce damage. Do you even know your own drat hack? You forgot to mention they also increase crit chance! Since heavy weapons do more damage if you can swing them obviously.
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Mar 11, 2015 03:19
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Onmi posted:The problem with women is their rescue formula is different (read: Worse) for females. If I remember correctly, non-mounted units have an Aid of Con - 1, Male Mounted Units have an Aid of 25 - Con, and Female Mounted Units have 20 - Con? It's been a while since I was invested in FE7. So male mounted units get 5 extra Aid compared to females, which is why Isadora's low Con lets her rescue things. Maybe it was balanced with Pegasus Knights in mind in FE6 and just carried over to Isadora somehow? I can't remember if there were female Cavaliers in FE6 or not.
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Mar 11, 2015 03:31
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pichupal posted:If I remember correctly, non-mounted units have an Aid of Con - 1, Male Mounted Units have an Aid of 25 - Con, and Female Mounted Units have 20 - Con? It's been a while since I was invested in FE7. So male mounted units get 5 extra Aid compared to females, which is why Isadora's low Con lets her rescue things.
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Mar 11, 2015 03:36
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Zore posted:... and serves to gently caress over low con characters even more. If the heavy weapons were already less accurate....no. It would really just be removing one item from a weapon's stats. marshmallow creep fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Mar 11, 2015 |
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Mar 11, 2015 03:54
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Nihilarian posted:I feel like weapon weight isn't the right solution to "every weapon feels the same". A better answer would be to diversify the weapons more. For example, leave the brave sword alone but exchange the brave axe for an axe that lowers the attacked unit's defense by 5, and the brave lance for a lance that lets your counterattack hit before the enemies attack. That just makes the brave sword even better by comparison in exchange for making the other ones worse. Two hits is better than a slightly better single hit, and Vantage on a weapon is interesting but still not comparable to the sheer damage brave weapons do right now.
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Mar 11, 2015 03:56
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What is Brave weapons came with a kind of Astra effect where they reduced the damage per hit by some constant? Astra in Awakening is five hits at half-damage, as I recall. A brave Weapon that hits for 2/3s or 3/4s damage would be doable.
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Mar 11, 2015 03:59
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I don't think the point is to change brave weapons specifically. I also don't think they really need it, though the availability of them in Awakening does present a bit of a balance problem compared to earlier games where you'd get like one of each.
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Mar 11, 2015 04:00
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Lotish posted:If the heavy weapons were already less accurate....no. It would really just be removing one item from a weapon's stats. quote:While weight never did affect accuracy sometimes I wondered if it should because weapons with high weight also tend to have commensurately less accuracy. You could, hypothetically, just have a base accuracy for the to hit formula, and a weapon's weight affects how accurate it is because big heavy poo poo is clumsy to hit with. Then you could introduce bonus accuracy from having more Con/Build than necessary, but that starts to tread on Skill. Your argument was that people with more con get more accuracy. I'm not sure how that isn't screwing over people with less con even more? Like that even makes situations where people are equal now, like Isadora and Sain both wielding an iron sword, and gives Sain an advantage in that too on top of being able to wield heavier weapons without penalty.
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Mar 11, 2015 04:03
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Manatee Cannon posted:That just makes the brave sword even better by comparison in exchange for making the other ones worse. Two hits is better than a slightly better single hit, and Vantage on a weapon is interesting but still not comparable to the sheer damage brave weapons do right now. Regardless, the effects don't really matter, they were examples.
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Mar 11, 2015 04:05
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Actually, yeah, you're right. I wasn't taking a flat accuracy value for everyone into account, really. The thought was that having heavy weapons also be inaccurate was a bit redundant when the weight of the thing could factored into the to-hit formula, but that thought was discounting constitution's weight reduction. If a higher con character and a lower con character had the same base accuracy, then yeah the guy with higher con gets to keep more of it while using that heavy weapon, thus becoming more accurate. I must have been thinking of things from more of a FE4 perspective where weight couldn't be mitigated. Perhaps reduce accuracy instead of AS and not in addition to? Alternatively, have the weight penalty to accuracy apply regardless of Con--the difference between a silver and iron sword is three weight, and the accuracy difference is 10. Make the penalty a -3 to hit per point of weight and you even come out ahead of what the game currently does. But just having a base accuracy for a weapon is easier to read before you start an attack, so it makes for faster play. I like the idea of weight as a balance, but I agree with you that I don't like how it disproportionately punishes certain characters. marshmallow creep fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Mar 11, 2015 |
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Mar 11, 2015 04:09
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Nihilarian posted:Against a target you can't one-round with a brave sword the axe might pull ahead, as the enemies defense would be lowered for your allies attacks, too. Not to mention the other stats of the weapon could make up for having a lesser special effect. Except the axe wouldn't pull ahead unless it is capable of dealing more damage in a single hit than the sword can in two. The difference is even greater if you're fast enough to double because a brave weapon would be hitting four times compared to the axe's two. It's a strict downgrade.
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Mar 11, 2015 04:13
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Yeah, the underlying combat system isn't really deep enough to accommodate too much mechanical variety. You can't elect not to attack, you're stuck with one weapon for a whole Enemy Phase, and damage is high enough that a player-controlled character really should be two-hit-killing most enemies by midgame. So there's not much room for complexity.
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Mar 11, 2015 04:17
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Can you imagine if they tuned the balance so one-rounding was rare? Some maps might drag on for days.
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Mar 11, 2015 04:20
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Lotish posted:Can you imagine if they tuned the balance so one-rounding was rare? Some maps might drag on for days. Isn't that basically Advance Wars?
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Mar 11, 2015 04:21
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I have no idea. Never played that series. Does that series also put you up against as many as 50 units at once?
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Mar 11, 2015 04:21
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You are down as many as 30 units against your 1 unit to 0 at times.
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Mar 11, 2015 04:24
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Is it all enemy phase/counter attacking like FE? I imagine if you couldn't chew through guys at a steady clip it would start to drag unless stuff besides the attack command are a big part of the gameplay.
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Mar 11, 2015 04:26
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I mean, doing that wouldn't be hard. Just have fewer, but tougher, enemies per map and remove the ability to double attack. Boom, suddenly player phase becomes a lot more important (as well as spreading out EXP) because people can't kill things alone without special anti-whatever weapons in a single round. It also makes the game a lot harder, makes you more RNG vulnerable to bad growths and probably wouldn't go over so well. But its not a hard problem to solve, if you actually want to solve it.
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Mar 11, 2015 04:27
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Lotish posted:Is it all enemy phase/counter attacking like FE? I imagine if you couldn't chew through guys at a steady clip it would start to drag unless stuff besides the attack command are a big part of the gameplay. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj07BISWs0U
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Mar 11, 2015 04:28
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Good idea. They could release it as a DLC for Awakening, maybe. Give it a big, dumb name. Apotheosis, perhaps.
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Mar 11, 2015 04:28
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The big differences with Advanced Wars are unlimited units (given sufficient resources to create them) and damage scaled to HP. A unit at 2/10 HP only does roughly 20% damage, for example. So combats are largely about getting the first hit. There's not much counterkilling in Advanced Wars unless you have a giant tank and they have crappy infantry. And in that case, they likely won't attack you at all.
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Mar 11, 2015 04:31
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Manatee Cannon posted:Except the axe wouldn't pull ahead unless it is capable of dealing more damage in a single hit than the sword can in two. The difference is even greater if you're fast enough to double because a brave weapon would be hitting four times compared to the axe's two. It's a strict downgrade. Sorites posted:Yeah, the underlying combat system isn't really deep enough to accommodate too much mechanical variety. You can't elect not to attack Sorites posted:damage is high enough that a player-controlled character really should be two-hit-killing most enemies by midgame. So there's not much room for complexity.
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Mar 11, 2015 05:59
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I stupidly posted:You can't elect not to attack I should have said "on a fight-by-fight basis". You can't, say, order Kent not to counterattack that specific bandit but otherwise counterattack. That just by itself cuts off a lot of interesting trade-off based special attacks and weapon concepts.
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Mar 11, 2015 06:06
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Personally, for me, I am in the camp that the Con system itself is great...but the Con numbers they gave to the characters are oftentimes not chosen well. For example, even Lucius has 6 Con...and yet Lyn only has 5? And Canas has 7? So am I to take it that Lucius and Canas, of all people, could actually beat Lyn in an arm wrestling match?! Or even Isadora, for that matter? I mean seriously, I know women's muscles generally aren't as thick or as heavy as men, but they aren't THAT much smaller! There's not way that someone in the military, like Lyn, should ever be able to carry any less than a book nerd like Canas  ! So if the Con system seems bad, it's not. It's what they DID with it that's bad.
Fionordequester fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Mar 11, 2015 |
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Mar 11, 2015 06:39
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