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ScratchAndSniff
Sep 28, 2008

This game stinks

IM_DA_DECIDER posted:

I've done olympic fencing for many years, so I know how game-y it is. Ain't gonna pistol grip twist turn flick someone with a rapier...
I'm more interested in the actual bladework differences. A rapier is much heavier than a foil or even epee, so I imagine it's much more about prise de fer than fast disengages?


Sport fencing with rapiers would be fine with me, even if it's just a less suicidal version of normal epee.

This is mostly from memory, so anyone more familiar with rapier/sport differences please feel free to correct me:

A lot of the stylistic differences depend on the time period and region. The earlier Bolognese stuff I studied was very much about beating and wider swings (and many would argue it isn't technically "rapier"), but the later Italian stuff developed more into thrusting-focused and developed wirh single-tempo movements similar to opposition parries and binding attacks. Giganti and Fabris were very big on taking the blade with single tempo attacks and counters. A nice touch was that you couldn't assume an attack had killed your opponent, so they advocated holding the bind on your recovery, even after you had skewered the guy.

The two-tempo parry/riposte kind of things were discouraged, but they came back into style as blades got smaller and lighter (i.e. smallswords) and more similar to modern stuff in terms of techniques.

Spain had all sorts of craziness, though, which has little in common with the modern sport.

The historical stance is also different, particularly with weight distribution. Most SCA people just use the more comfortable sport stance. There's also the disarms/grappling/etc. stuff which SCA doesn't even touch.

Another big difference is that SCA has a much different definition of a "cut" than the historical manuals do. For safety reasons, they encourage more gliding cuts, rather than forceful whacks which would actually do damage. They also do the whole "hit person in the leg, then they pretend they can't walk" thing.

SCA fencing isn't "suicidal" in the same way sport fencing is, but it's still a game, and people treat it like one. To me it felt more like a non-electric "4th sport weapon" than a historical fighting style.

Edit: If electric rapier existed I would be all over it.

ScratchAndSniff fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Mar 4, 2015

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Zeitgueist
Aug 8, 2003

by Ralp

IM_DA_DECIDER posted:

I'm in Edmonton :/. I actually heard good things about the people there in regards to personality.

Knowing nothing about rapier fencing whatsoever, how can I tell if they are doing it properly? What would doing it historically accurate even mean? How does rapier fencing technique differ from olympic fencing?

The HEMA club finder lists at least 1 group in Edmonton, though I have no idea if they are any good.

To add to what others have said, yes a good SCA(or HEMA group) teacher should be able to tell you what texts they are studying from, where they learned, and basic stuff like explaining how a historical stance and lunge differ from modern sport fencing. They are mechanically different. A lot of SCA fencers come from a sport fencing background, so they are closer to accuracy in many respects compared to the rattan fighters, if they are are just using sport fencing technique with a metal rapier they are doing it wrong.

You can also look at videos that folks in the thread recommend as "good technique" to get an idea, though it is still an evolving art and there is going to be some disagreement.

The SCA varies greatly in it's rapier community and while you have some very knowledgeable people on the coasts, you're going to get a crapshoot in smaller population areas like Alberta, where you might have an amazing person teaching you, or you may have a guy who has learned 3rd hand because that's what is available in the area.

IM_DA_DECIDER posted:

I've done olympic fencing for many years, so I know how game-y it is. Ain't gonna pistol grip twist turn flick someone with a rapier...
I'm more interested in the actual bladework differences. A rapier is much heavier than a foil or even epee, so I imagine it's much more about prise de fer than fast disengages?


Sport fencing with rapiers would be fine with me, even if it's just a less suicidal version of normal epee.

Historical fencing is going to be about both constraining your opponent and disengages once you get past the basics. Running in and throwing a super fast lunge only takes one so far.

married but discreet
May 7, 2005


Taco Defender

Zeitgueist posted:

The HEMA club finder lists at least 1 group in Edmonton, though I have no idea if they are any good.


Oh, that's useful! I've actually been to the one club listed, but they don't do rapier and are also far too expensive for me :(

From the replies it sounds like I'd be fine with SCA style-rapier even if it's not necessarily 100% historical. I just don't want some total europeeaboo fantasy bullshit.

Zeitgueist
Aug 8, 2003

by Ralp

IM_DA_DECIDER posted:

Oh, that's useful! I've actually been to the one club listed, but they don't do rapier and are also far too expensive for me :(

From the replies it sounds like I'd be fine with SCA style-rapier even if it's not necessarily 100% historical. I just don't want some total europeeaboo fantasy bullshit.

Everything is going to be a compromise as far as accuracy, you can always be more historical. Just recognize what compromises are made.

I believe the SCA ruleset has some specific stuff about cuts, acting out injuries and whatnot but if you have a good group it can be fun.

They do ask you dress up in a vaguely historical manner for official events(not practice) but that's like their only requirement.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



Zeitgueist posted:

Everything is going to be a compromise as far as accuracy, you can always be more historical. Just recognize what compromises are made.

I believe the SCA ruleset has some specific stuff about cuts, acting out injuries and whatnot but if you have a good group it can be fun.

They do ask you dress up in a vaguely historical manner for official events(not practice) but that's like their only requirement.

And there's nothing stopping you from being like "Hey, I have these manuals and pictures. Wanna try this out with me?" to some people in the group if you so desired.

I'm just wary of the SCA because I remember a video of a group demonstrating the zwerchhau, but that the move is blocked by a shield, so you should jump to hit over it. He does this little hop in his armor, it's adorable. Sadly I haven't been able to find it again.

Verisimilidude fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Mar 4, 2015

Zeitgueist
Aug 8, 2003

by Ralp

Verisimilidude posted:

I'm just wary of the SCA because I remember a video of a group demonstrating the zwerchhau, but that the move is blocked by a shield, so you should jump to hit over it. He does this little hop in his armor, it's adorable. Sadly I haven't been able to find it again.

SCA heavy armor fighting is probably the least historically accurate form of anything in the HEMA community.

That's not to say that some people who do it don't know actual technique, but in general it's heavily adapted to the specifically SCA rattan context and not really historical at all. Alot of it is just "I like to hit people with sticks on weekends" which is fine if that's what you're into.

Ko_Sine
Nov 12, 2010

ScratchAndSniff posted:

This is mostly from memory, so anyone more familiar with rapier/sport differences please feel free to correct.

Another big difference is that SCA has a much different definition of a "cut" than the historical manuals do. For safety reasons, they encourage more gliding cuts, rather than forceful whacks which would actually do damage.

There is a percussive element to a cut, but most of your actual damage would happen from a draw. A "whack" would mostly bounce off before doing much damage.
Source my rapier teacher who has been doing swordplay for 15+ years.

ScratchAndSniff
Sep 28, 2008

This game stinks

Ko_Sine posted:

There is a percussive element to a cut, but most of your actual damage would happen from a draw. A "whack" would mostly bounce off before doing much damage.
Source my rapier teacher who has been doing swordplay for 15+ years.

I suppose it is a bit of both, now that I think of it. It's definitely harder than than most people might think to do any real damage with a rapier cut.

Source: imperfect memory of old rapier instruction with sharp rapier cutting practice.

Red Dad Redemption
Sep 29, 2007

ScratchAndSniff posted:

I suppose it is a bit of both, now that I think of it. It's definitely harder than than most people might think to do any real damage with a rapier cut.

Source: imperfect memory of old rapier instruction with sharp rapier cutting practice.

Is cutting really effective at all with a rapier? I'd have thought you'd need something more like a Kilij or Talwar for that type of attack.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012

You're not going to lop someone's arm off, but it's still a heavy, sharp piece of metal I'd rather not have someone whack in my face.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



Sheikh Djibouti posted:

Is cutting really effective at all with a rapier? I'd have thought you'd need something more like a Kilij or Talwar for that type of attack.

I imagine so, mostly considering fencing masters like Giganti discuss cutting in their texts. You probably won't cut off a limb, but I imagine you'd leave a nasty gash if you did it right.

If I recall correctly, one of the rapier fencing masters says "If you are weak, cut from the shoulder. If you are strong, cut from the wrist."

Zeitgueist
Aug 8, 2003

by Ralp
Yeah it's probably not going to be a killing blow but cutting someone is entirely valid with the tip of a rapier.

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004


Out here, everything hurts.




ScratchAndSniff posted:

Another big difference is that SCA has a much different definition of a "cut" than the historical manuals do. For safety reasons, they encourage more gliding cuts, rather than forceful whacks which would actually do damage. They also do the whole "hit person in the leg, then they pretend they can't walk" thing.

SCA fencing isn't "suicidal" in the same way sport fencing is, but it's still a game, and people treat it like one. To me it felt more like a non-electric "4th sport weapon" than a historical fighting style.


Depends on which system. SCA has three separate ones, Light Rapier, Heavy Rapier and Cut and Thrust, with similar rules but important differences. By standard the scoring strikes are thrusts and draw cuts, although the regional organizations (kingdoms) can opt to allow push cuts as well. Cut and Thrust allows percussive strikes. Leg shots are 'take a knee' in Light or Heavy, and a kill in C&T.

The rules they use are actually quite simple.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001

It's beginners' course time again at my club, does anyone has any fun not-quite-a-real-bout group games we should try out? I.e. letting them stab each other a bit but without having to learn all the rules yet.

Just for context, this is purely to make sure they're having a bit of fun and not just drilling in their first few lessons.

ImplicitAssembler
Jan 24, 2013

I'm thinking of doing an effort post on JSA for the OP...would anyone be interested in that?

Turtlicious
Sep 17, 2012

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
On a scale of 1 - 10 how bad is whipping someone on purpose after they accidentally whipped you like 5x?

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001

ImplicitAssembler posted:

I'm thinking of doing an effort post on JSA for the OP...would anyone be interested in that?
Totally, I'd love to know more. Go ahead and I'll edit it in. I wonder what the character limit for posts is?

Turtlicious posted:

On a scale of 1 - 10 how bad is whipping someone on purpose after they accidentally whipped you like 5x?
Depends what you plan to do. There's no harm in showing them how it's done properly, but if I'd say just stop the bout and tell them what they're doing wrong. If they have a problem with that, walk away. If it's in a tournament situation, hope the ref calls brutality and watch the cards roll in, I guess?

I once pulled off a really nice fleche against a Russian exchange student, sheer beginner's luck for me. The guy got amazingly angry and started doing a lot of really forceful flicks and beats. The sad thing is that as I was pretty new at the time, he could have just kept fencing normally and still kicked my rear end; he was winning anyway. Don't be that guy.

Crazy Achmed fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Mar 9, 2015

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



Crazy Achmed posted:

It's beginners' course time again at my club, does anyone has any fun not-quite-a-real-bout group games we should try out? I.e. letting them stab each other a bit but without having to learn all the rules yet.

Just for context, this is purely to make sure they're having a bit of fun and not just drilling in their first few lessons.

We do one at my school's fencing club where everyone stands in a circle and says their name, then someone lunges at someone else in the circle and says that person's name, and that person had to do the same. Eventually you amp up the speed and it's genuinely fun as people try to remember everyone's name.

ScratchAndSniff
Sep 28, 2008

This game stinks

Turtlicious posted:

On a scale of 1 - 10 how bad is whipping someone on purpose after they accidentally whipped you like 5x?

10. Suck it up, win the bout, and move on with life. If it's a teammate you can let them know what they are doing wrong or not fence them in the future, but in a tournament I wouldn't even put forth that much effort.

Edit: Are the other person's whips scoring legitimate hits? If so, just get better at parrying. If not, take my previous advice.

ScratchAndSniff fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Mar 9, 2015

curious lump
Sep 13, 2014

by zen death robot
getting whipped doesn't even hurt you little pussies, especially if it's not on purpose. you shouldn't be getting hit anyways, see above.

WoodrowSkillson
Feb 24, 2005

*Gestures at 60 years of Lions history*

Sheikh Djibouti posted:

Is cutting really effective at all with a rapier? I'd have thought you'd need something more like a Kilij or Talwar for that type of attack.

Rapiers were all over the place in terms of thickness, length etc depending on time, place, and preferred style.



Getting cut by some of those would leave one hell of a nasty gash and would certainly help the one doing the cutting win the fight. Especially if you left your forearm exposed, that would not be good for your tendons.

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

WoodrowSkillson posted:

Rapiers were all over the place in terms of thickness, length etc depending on time, place, and preferred style.

yo uh not all the swords in this pic are rapiers. The vertical sword is a side-sword, to the right of that is an 18th century broadsword (technically a backsword- you can tell by the fuller on one side), and to the right of that is a schiavona, and on the far left is (arguably) another side-sword.

also you might want to link to imgur instead

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004


Out here, everything hurts.




Don't forget the two parrying daggers in there as well. The on the left appears to be in the swordbreaker style.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001

I was going to post a link to the Cold Steel greatsword infomercial, but then I discovered their smallsword one. It's good for catching rings thrown at you, I guess? Also they show off a masterful demonstration of that standard fencing move, the "throw your sword like a javelin".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr71uTyWKtk

Man, he really wants that pig dead :(

El Spamo
Aug 21, 2003

Fuss and misery
Eh, the ring thing is a good exercise for point control. The pig stabbing part really shows why those swords (and duels) were so lethal. It really did not take much effort to skewer it deeply, you did not have to be a big strong person to be a duelist. The other knife was... there.

You could catch your opponent by surprise since they'd be very surprised at you throwing your loving sword away.

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

El Spamo posted:

Eh, the ring thing is a good exercise for point control. The pig stabbing part really shows why those swords (and duels) were so lethal. It really did not take much effort to skewer it deeply, you did not have to be a big strong person to be a duelist.

this is true for any unarmored (and apparently naked) fighting with swords though, even round-tipped Type Xs.

Edit: I also haven't heard of smallsword dueling being thought of as terribly lethal, but rather the opposite. This is because, at least in part, of harsher enforcement of laws against dueling over the 17th century. This increasingly led to duels to first blood rather than to the death so that both participants would not be killed. For whatever it's worth, wikipedia's source claims over 400 deaths in 10k duels from 1685-1716, which seems to confirm what I have read elsewhere. A death rate of 2%
is not terribly fearsome.

Liquid Communism posted:

Don't forget the two parrying daggers in there as well. The on the left appears to be in the swordbreaker style.

I think even ws knows the difference between a sword and a dagger.

Rodrigo Diaz fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Mar 10, 2015

El Spamo
Aug 21, 2003

Fuss and misery

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

this is true for any unarmored fighting with swords though, even round-tipped Type Xs.

Truth, there's a reason plastrons exist.

Ko_Sine
Nov 12, 2010

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

yo uh not all the swords in this pic are rapiers. The vertical sword is a side-sword, to the right of that is an 18th century broadsword (technically a backsword- you can tell by the fuller on one side), and to the right of that is a schiavona, and on the far left is (arguably) another side-sword.

also you might want to link to imgur instead

As far as I know, sidesword was a mistranslation. It is just an earlier rapier.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



Ko_Sine posted:

As far as I know, sidesword was a mistranslation. It is just an earlier rapier.

Sidesword has a different method of fighting attached to it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuJ9ACn_a20

ibntumart
Mar 18, 2007

Good, bad. I'm the one with the power of Shu, Heru, Amon, Zehuti, Aton, and Mehen.
College Slice
Question for the other HEMA folks: what do you prefer for head protection? I've been borrowing my gym's safety equipment, but want my own since sometimes we run out. I was thinking about an epee mask with a SPES mask overlay.

Also, since this may be the only thread that might appreciate this, have a pic of my recently restored rapier:

Zeitgueist
Aug 8, 2003

by Ralp
^^^^ I assume sword porn is OK in this thread

Ko_Sine posted:

As far as I know, sidesword was a mistranslation. It is just an earlier rapier.

It was developed earlier than the rapier but is distinct from it and was used in parallel.

P-Mack
Nov 10, 2007

ibntumart posted:

Question for the other HEMA folks: what do you prefer for head protection? I've been borrowing my gym's safety equipment, but want my own since sometimes we run out. I was thinking about an epee mask with a SPES mask overlay.

Also, since this may be the only thread that might appreciate this, have a pic of my recently restored rapier:



Most people in my class have masks with built in overlays. If you plan on doing other styles of fencing separate mask and overlay would make a lot of sense.

I've never really heard anyone bitch much about any particular mask model, compared to the constant complaints I hear about gloves.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



ibntumart posted:

Question for the other HEMA folks: what do you prefer for head protection? I've been borrowing my gym's safety equipment, but want my own since sometimes we run out. I was thinking about an epee mask with a SPES mask overlay.

Also, since this may be the only thread that might appreciate this, have a pic of my recently restored rapier:



I use this AF helmet. It's one of the best, especially for the price point. The mask itself is rigid, which is good for when you get thrusted in the face with a feder or stiff rapier. The back of head protection is great, if a bit bulky at times. Highly recommend it, otherwise I would go for a separate AF mask with a PBT back of the head protector.

Zeitgueist
Aug 8, 2003

by Ralp

P-Mack posted:

I've never really heard anyone bitch much about any particular mask model, compared to the constant complaints I hear about gloves.

Yeah pretty much any 3 weapons fencing mask and a back of head protection is fine.

Gloves are where the equipment holy wars are housed(also swords).

Zeitgueist fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Mar 10, 2015

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001

So I've always wondered, how does a basket hilt actually protect the hand? The one posted above looks like you could still thrust a blade through it at a near dead-on angle and hit the weapon hand. Or is it just a trick of perspective?

[edit]Also, apparently there's a new event in the FIE grand prix series or something starting in Havana in a couple of days. I hope they broadcast it...

Crazy Achmed fucked around with this message at 09:18 on Mar 11, 2015

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



Crazy Achmed posted:

So I've always wondered, how does a basket hilt actually protect the hand? The one posted above looks like you could still thrust a blade through it at a near dead-on angle and hit the weapon hand. Or is it just a trick of perspective?

[edit]Also, apparently there's a new event in the FIE grand prix series or something starting in Havana in a couple of days. I hope they broadcast it...

I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly why they adopted the cup hilt.

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Crazy Achmed posted:

So I've always wondered, how does a basket hilt actually protect the hand? The one posted above looks like you could still thrust a blade through it at a near dead-on angle and hit the weapon hand. Or is it just a trick of perspective?

Basket hilts (especially early ones) are really designed to defend against cuts, you mostly defend against thrusts with timing, distance, and blade control.

There are leather coverings inside some basket hilts but I suspect that is there more to keep your knuckles from bashing on the basket than to protect the hand from blades.

Verisimilidude posted:

I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly why they adopted the cup hilt.

basket hilts exist contemporaneously with cup hilts, and the big advantage of cup hilts (within the context of an army supplied in bulk) is that they're significantly easier and faster to make.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

your knuckles...bashing on the basket...
Giant freak hands, checking in.

ibntumart
Mar 18, 2007

Good, bad. I'm the one with the power of Shu, Heru, Amon, Zehuti, Aton, and Mehen.
College Slice
Speaking from the obviously expert position of having only ever had one sidesword lesson, I think the ring hilt helped keep my opponent's (synthetic) blade from rapping my knuckles (or rest of my hand).

I imagine if I had had a basket hilt on the practice sword, that would have been at least as effective. We were doing mostly cuts and counters in sparring, though, not thrusting.

But hoping to poke your blade through the rings and (1) actually slice your opponent and (2) not get your blade stuck or its tip broken off when your opponent jerks his or her sword away seems a poor idea to me.

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Siivola
Dec 23, 2012

It's sort of a bad plan, because the hand is the easiest to defend. When you parry with a rapier, you're trying to catch their point with the part of your blade closest to your hand. Or, in Capoferro's terms, control their debole with your forte. That way you get maximum leverage on their sword while keeping your own point free to stick them in the eye.

Man, I should go back to the rapier classes, Capoferro is pretty cool. (You should check out the illustrations in the pdf I linked earlier, yowch! :ohdear:) It's just that the rapier is so friggin' heavy and difficult and I'm a complete wuss about it.

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