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Siivola posted:It's just that the rapier is so friggin' heavy and difficult and I'm a complete wuss about it. You are a complete wuss, try practising the Liechtenauer single sword or sword and buckler styles with a decent hand and a halfer. Doubly sucks when the buckler is 8"+ and made of steel.
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Mar 11, 2015 22:30
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It sounds pretty drat cool. My plate is full with longsword and hopefully sidesword for now, but learning the rapier properly would be fun down the line. You're right about the heaviness. I thought the longsword would be worse, but of course it's two-handed so mucking about with a waster for an hour is no big deal.
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Mar 11, 2015 22:45
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Siivola posted:Man, I should go back to the rapier classes, Capoferro is pretty cool. (You should check out the illustrations in the pdf I linked earlier, yowch! Get a heavier pommel.
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Mar 11, 2015 23:20
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) It's just that the rapier is so friggin' heavy and difficult and I'm a complete wuss about it.
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Zeitgueist posted:Get a heavier pommel. wrong. Get swole. Work those flexors
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Mar 11, 2015 23:22
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A good longsword with an appropriately lengthy grip will produce a ton of leverage. In a lot of cases when the fencers aren't as physically conditioned as they ought to be, the longsword ends up being faster than something like a Messer.
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Mar 11, 2015 23:23
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:wrong. Get swole. Work those flexors
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Mar 11, 2015 23:37
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:wrong. Get swole. Work those flexors Both, also get a more bio-mechanically correct stance. But people often have a rapier that is a bit tip heavy and have a better time moving the balance point back.
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Mar 12, 2015 00:02
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How much does a rapier weigh, on average? Being a foilist, epees feel just fine until about ten points into a bout, then they suddenly transform into a giant lead brick. My sabreur friends have suggested I set up something to hit and just practise cutting for ages until I build up more hand strength.
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Mar 12, 2015 01:27
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A rapier is like 2 pounds, which, if you get tired using an epee, is probably too much for you. Do more pushups.
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Mar 12, 2015 01:38
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Crazy Achmed posted:How much does a rapier weigh, on average? Mine is somewhere between 2 1/2 to 3 pounds. No idea how much the practice sidesword I borrowed weighed, but I am sure it was lighter.
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Mar 12, 2015 01:53
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Zeitgueist posted:Get a heavier pommel. This partially. I bought the economy rapier from Darkwood and thought it felt pretty heavy, but then I picked up someone's custom rapier (also from Darkwood) and it felt like nothing in comparison. Weight wise they were relatively similar, with his actually being slightly heavier than mine, but because of the distribution of weight, and the overall better quality of the weapon, it felt much lighter.
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Mar 12, 2015 03:00
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I think it's funny that this is the same thread that had a debate about whether or not women are strong enough to fence men
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Mar 12, 2015 03:04
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HEY GAL posted:I think it's funny that this is the same thread that had a debate about whether or not women are strong enough to fence men Women are only able to pick up 1 pound weapons.  
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Mar 12, 2015 03:36
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curious lump posted:A rapier is like 2 pounds, which, if you get tired using an epee, is probably too much for you. Do more pushups. HEY GAL posted:I think it's funny that this is the same thread that had a debate about whether or not women are strong enough to fence men , but purely because the pool of people they fence against, at least under tournament conditions, is being restricted.Anyone with experience in this area care to comment?
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Mar 12, 2015 05:08
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HEY GAL posted:I think it's funny that this is the same thread that had a debate about whether or not women are strong enough to fence men Gender politics in HEMA are so loving bad. Feminism is generally viewed as this archaic thing ran by tumblr stereotypes, and the woman's group Esfinges gets poo poo on constantly because it holds functions and classes specifically for women. The word "egalitarian" gets thrown around a lot. Crazy Achmed posted:One interesting thing I've heard about is that at competitive levels where genders are segregated, the separation apparently extends to tactics as well. That is to say, men end up favouring different tactics to women, not because of From what I've seen, many women tend to be very aggressive with their approach (at least in HEMA). I'm pretty small for a dude (5'5") and most of the women in my group are taller than me, so it works in their favor. They'll charge forward, strike to an off-side, and then close distance to get leverage. It works when you're not expecting it, but keeping your point on line tends to foil it. On the flip side to that, you have people who are generally slower (or perhaps more methodical) but otherwise technically excellent, and honestly you don't need to be super quick if you have amazing technique. We have one girl in our group who is relatively new, but she's already turning out to be an amazing fencer. Her attributes are fantastic for the art and she has really good technique. If she sticks with it she'll definitely be one of the best in our group. Verisimilidude fucked around with this message at 12:32 on Mar 12, 2015 |
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Mar 12, 2015 12:07
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Verisimilidude posted:Gender politics in HEMA are so loving bad. Feminism is generally viewed as this archaic thing ran by tumblr stereotypes, and the woman's group Esfinges gets poo poo on constantly because it holds functions and classes specifically for women. The word "egalitarian" gets thrown around a lot. It's about as bad as you'd expect from a group predominately full of nerdy men who also have masculinity issues attached to competition and weapons. The issue of weather racism or sexism is a problem in HEMA was asked to the facebook group and all the white men said "no this is a really egalitarian hobby!" but "there's going to be some teasing and if you can't take it we don't want you.". Whereas most of the women and racial minority men were like "yeah of course there's some bigoted assholes, at least as much as anywhere else". Also discussing women's lists in tournaments is pretty much a guaranteed flame war on that group.
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Mar 12, 2015 17:39
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Verisimilidude posted:Gender politics in HEMA are so loving bad. Feminism is generally viewed as this archaic thing ran by tumblr stereotypes, and the woman's group Esfinges gets poo poo on constantly because it holds functions and classes specifically for women. Happy to say this isn't something I've noticed so far at my classes. I also don't belong to any HEMA-related mailing lists or Facebook pages. But now I'm worried if I move and want to keep doing HEMA stuff in another locale. I like living in my neckbeard-free bubble where men and women swing swords together and do MMA training together without anyone being an rear end about it.
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Mar 12, 2015 20:22
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ibntumart posted:Happy to say this isn't something I've noticed so far at my classes. I also don't belong to any HEMA-related mailing lists or Facebook pages. My group fairly good too, but it's always gonna differ from group to group. And yeah don't read any HEMA facebook group, there are some real shitheads.
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Mar 12, 2015 20:57
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The Martinez Academy uploaded two videos on French and Italian foil assaults. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlrxUyuzvaM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnkCbwg56sU
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Mar 13, 2015 00:36
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Verisimilidude posted:The Martinez Academy uploaded two videos on French and Italian foil assaults. [Edit] this has to be a bladework demo, they are close as gently caress to each other. I still wish i could prime like that, though. Crazy Achmed fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Mar 16, 2015 |
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Mar 15, 2015 12:40
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Sorry I missed this thread when it first opened. I've been an active international referee in foil and epee since 2007, having fenced a few junior world cups/championships as an athlete. More than happy to answer any questions you guys have.
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Mar 15, 2015 22:50
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Guy Windsor's new book Swordfighting is out, in case you want to learn about the nerdiest fencing.
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Mar 16, 2015 13:29
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Do any of you have experience judging matches? I'm loving awful at it apparently, and I'm curious what it is that people are looking at because I apparently can't make good calls.
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Mar 16, 2015 13:58
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For foil or saber there are no good calls. It's all subjective, and fencers can be the biggest drama queens over a call they think should have gone the other way. The best defense on that is to stand your ground and stand by your call, even if it was dodgey. Then again, I'm a super-lovely foil ref and don't even talk to me about saber. Epee though, is pretty easy. No right of way to worry about, so you're mostly concerned about making sure the fencers maintain their position on strip and keeping an eye out for rule violations. Your vision should be focused on their feet. Imagine a square that covers the front foot of either fencer and goes up as high as their guard. Focus on that area and watch for them either stepping off the strip or in the event of a fleche noting when the attacking fencer has passed the other. I also keep an eye out for little things like touching the body cord during the bout, touching their weapon with the off-hand, any signals that fencer needs to stop (for whatever reason, re-tying their shoe for example), equipment failures like a body cord coming unplugged or a blade improperly bent. Fairly recently you also need to keep an eye on non-combativity rules. They're annoying but not too hard to keep track of. You'll know when you need to keep an eye on it right away in a bout. But as far as the action goes the fencers are left to their own devices while the referee calls out the touches as they occur and manages the pacing of the bout. There are thankfully few hard calls to make refereeing epee and mostly they come down to deciding when to stop the action for whatever reason. Remember, the action stops when the referee decides it stops, not when the command "Halt!" comes out of their mouth, so if you see something and decide that the action must stop now then focus on making the fencers stop and don't worry about their actions. It's better to stop the action and be wrong then to allow it to continue with something wrong or unsafe. Practice ref'ing on small local tournaments to build confidence and get the jumpiness out of your system. I made a good number of calls like that, but once you get into the rhythm and get comfortable with how a bout goes you won't make very many mistakes. Hell, one (or two) time(s) I covered up a mistaken call for 'halt' by saying that I thought I saw a hit land that should have registered but didn't. Fencer, let me check your weapon. Ah, it works! Good, I'd hate for you to fence with a broken waepon. En garde please.
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Mar 16, 2015 17:57
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Siivola posted:Guy Windsor's new book Swordfighting is out, in case you want to learn about the nerdiest fencing. Wasn't that the guy claiming you should move your hands first?
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Mar 16, 2015 18:08
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Crazy Achmed posted:This is just demoing the general bladework style and form of attack, right? Otherwise someone should tell these people they really, really need to step back before/with the parry. Why?
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Mar 16, 2015 20:15
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ImplicitAssembler posted:Wasn't that the guy claiming you should move your hands first? Edit: Here's how it's supposed to look. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L527rJI5usU Siivola fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Mar 16, 2015 |
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Mar 16, 2015 20:21
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Siivola posted:Yes. Actually it was this guy I was thinking of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0LpsnO0E4U I know this is opening a can of worms, but this shows what happens when the line of transmission is broken. Any sport, any martial, anything where speed and/or power is needed will tell you to use the hips to generate it. I don't understand why these re-created European sword arts insist on ignoring that?
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Mar 16, 2015 21:37
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Honestly, you should maybe approach Windsor or Dimicator's Roland Warzecha (the guy in the video) about it. I've tried to explain how I understand it, but you don't seem entirely convinced and I'm not 100% certain I've got it entirely right anyway. Warzecha maintains Dimicator's Facebook page and is very active, so you could try there first. Guy's got a contact page on his website, but he's on a vacation right now so he might not answer very fast. If you don't mind spending some money to find out, I'd be willing to bet money the answer's in Guy's book The Medieval Longsword. I should really buy that myself.  Edit: I don't consider myself knowledgeable enough to go further on this topic, but I'd just like to emphasize that Guy is absolutely passionate about body mechanics and how to ground power. Exhibit A from his blog. He doesn't teach the way he does just because an old book says so, I'm sure. Siivola fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Mar 16, 2015 |
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Mar 16, 2015 22:52
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ImplicitAssembler posted:Actually it was this guy I was thinking of: It seems like a lot of it has to do with the fact that a fair amount of the source material is dealing with the context of a duel with unarmored combatants. If you've got something sharp and you're hitting something soft, power matters way less in terms of being able to cause an injury.
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Mar 17, 2015 01:39
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Buried alive posted:It seems like a lot of it has to do with the fact that a fair amount of the source material is dealing with the context of a duel with unarmored combatants. If you've got something sharp and you're hitting something soft, power matters way less in terms of being able to cause an injury. Yes, I heard that answer before and it's still wrong, as it's still slower and should you fail to disable the opponent, puts you in an unbalanced position. Again, boxers, baseball players, table tennis, modern fencing, you name it. The Warzecha video is laughable. He halves the distance between him and the girl and now states that he can't avoid, so moving the hand must be the fastest. His examples with the the strikes are so obviously tailored to fit his theory. It's a clear example of A) lack of competitive sparring B) direct transmission C) Geeks with poor understanding of body mechanics. Again, kendo, kenjutsu, fencing, boxing, karate, whathaveyou....speed/power is generated from the feet/hips first. And no, you don't telegraph your attack by doing so.
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Mar 17, 2015 02:04
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Gadamer posted:Why? This is an issue close to my heart because I'm a lazy fucker and give away a lot of points this way. About hips vs hands first, at least in sport fencing it's hands first all the way. Hands move faster than the body, power isn't really an issue, and regardless of the weapon when attacking you ideally want to have the sharp bit of your weapon close to the other guy, but your target as far away as possible. Crazy Achmed fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Mar 17, 2015 |
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Mar 17, 2015 04:32
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Re: retreating when you parry - you can't always ensure that your parry will be perfect. Someone may move faster than you, have little/no tells, disengage, etc. You retreat when using a parry to give yourself time to complete the parry and, if need be, ensure that you are not hit even if the parry fails. This does not mean you have to take a massive step backwards - if you know your distance, and the range of your opponent, you should be able to tailor your step so that their point would just be missing you even if you did not parry. Re: hands vs waists - I've never heard this discussion ever come up, so I might be misinterpreting. You move your hand first (this is what I've been told, and seems consistent with my fencing experience), extending your arm fully, and then move your body in a lunge. This is because your body moving is a large tell, and a skilled opponent will see it coming. Your hand, however, will not generate that kind of response - it's a very small movement, moving straight forward, and not easily visible. This way, by the time you are moving your body in a lunge (your opponent now seeing it coming), your arm is already extended, so you do not have to travel as far - meaning that they are less likely to make their parry.
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Mar 17, 2015 07:59
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Crazy Achmed posted:About hips vs hands first, at least in sport fencing it's hands first all the way. Hands move faster than the body, power isn't really an issue, and regardless of the weapon when attacking you ideally want to have the sharp bit of your weapon close to the other guy, but your target as far away as possible.
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Mar 17, 2015 08:00
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ImplicitAssembler posted:
So wrong. Stop pretending you know what you are talking about just because you saw some youtube videos. Hand (typically) moves first in modern fencing. If someone moves their feet first, I stick my arm out first and step into them. If they hit it may hurt me more, but it will be after I hit them... usually they will be too close to accurately hit me anyway. This is basic poo poo, and it works in all 3 modern weapons. In practice there may be hand movement after/during leg action, and the initial movement could be subtle, but the hand moves first. This is different from most other martial arts, so it screws a lot of people up. I call those people "free points." On the historical side, I'm surprised no surviving texts clearly explain that kind of thing. Sounds pretty fundemental. If the sources do address it, arguing that something may work "better" kind of defeats the purpose of a historical martial art, doesn't it? Edit: In case there is still some doubt about what moves first in modern fencing: "usfa rulebook article t.7 posted:
ScratchAndSniff fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Mar 17, 2015 |
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Mar 17, 2015 15:51
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Siivola posted:It's been this way since at least the 18th century when Domenico Angelo wrote his School of Fencing. He wasn't the first to write about the smallsword, either, so the principle of "extend, then lunge" is probably far older. Couldn't find it by skimming Capoferro's rapier manual, though. Capo Ferro says everything moves in one tempo, but doesn't spell out the order. I don't think he gets more specific. Ridolfo Capo Ferro (Jared Kirby's translation) posted:I move with the vita, the legs, and with the arm pushed forward all in one tempo to be better able to strike the adversary. Giganti very clearly spells it out, though: Nicoletto Giganti (Aaron Miedema's translation) posted:The true way of throwing the stoccata is beforehand when you are set in guard, it behoves you first to throw the arm and, & then increase forward with the torso in one time, when thus the stoccata arrives, so that the enemy unaware; if you first carry forward the torso, the enemy will be aware, & thus saved by having time to recover, & wound in one time.
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Mar 17, 2015 16:46
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This is also easily testable. Try starting your swing with a longsword prior to moving your feet, and try it after your feet. Your timing will be consistently too slow if you lead with feet. With rapier, the lunge is mechanically different than a modern lunge and you will need to be moving your hands first. Swords aren't a tennis swing, if you are applying a ton of power you are probably making too large a movement and over-extending yourself.
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Mar 17, 2015 18:32
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Zeitgueist posted:T With rapier, the lunge is mechanically different than a modern lunge and you will need to be moving your hands first. What's the difference? Also am I misreading of is someone seriously claiming that in modern fencing you lead with your feet?
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Mar 17, 2015 18:38
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IM_DA_DECIDER posted:What's the difference? There's a variety of claims as far as movement with regards to historical swordfighting, but the accepted mechanics in the community is hands before feet. Some are claiming that you do not lead with hands if you want to generate speed and power, but that isn't really true in historical swordfighting. As far as historical rapier lunge, I posted a video upthread. Capoferro/Giganti lunges look and are different from a modern lunge.
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Mar 17, 2015 19:01
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ScratchAndSniff posted:So wrong. Stop pretending you know what you are talking about just because you saw some youtube videos. Hand (typically) moves first in modern fencing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRJED1eCXww 0:40 it's in slo-mo. It's what I would call a typical lunging attacks and he moves his feet first. Zeitgueist posted:This is also easily testable. Try starting your swing with a longsword prior to moving your feet, and try it after your feet. Your timing will be consistently too slow if you lead with feet. I got 15 years+ of kendo experience, I have competed internationally (not very succesfully, mind you). I've done some iai and are now also doing Katori Shinto Ryu. None of these sword-arts, which has 400+ years of direct transmission, with about as recent real application as you get and none of them, none, would ever claim to move lead with your hands. Even in the static cuts, you are starting every movement with your hips first...this is bio-mechanics/sports science 101!.
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Mar 17, 2015 20:36
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