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Melth posted:Maybe the reason he didn’t help out last battle was that we just hadn’t given him permission to. Perhaps he got the wrong idea from how we grabbed him and didn’t let him fight anymore on Chapter 23. Oops. Well, would you have let him fight, if he was still a green unit?  Assuming he asked, if he didn't I imagine you couldn't have spared a unit to rescue him.
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Mar 12, 2015 18:21
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It's been like 10 years since I played Hector Hard Mode so I had no idea he was on a timer. You were right about the items you got from the reinforcements. You got Shine (900), Elfire (1,200), Nosferatu (3,200!) and Recover (2,250) for a total of 7,550. If you'd opened up the door before he left you'd have gotten a Silver Sword (1,500), Silver Lance (1,200), Silver Axe (1,000) and Silver Bow (1,600) for a total of 5,300. Looks like you got the better deal! Re: Archer talk, I don't think they need to be able to counterattack at melee range to be useful. As long as they have a unique niche no one else can perform they'll be fine. In these games their only use is attacking at range 3 but that'll only last them through the midgame because the Longbow's stats just won't be able to keep up. Pegasus units are so frail bows are usually unnecessary and Wyverns are typically easier to kill with mages of any stripe. (And that's ignoring competition from other Bow Units like Rath, because the Longbow isn't exclusive to archers/snipers).
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Mar 12, 2015 21:06
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I never understood why Archers in FE11 and 12 have even less movement than Hunters, on top of everything else. Archers in other games usually have the advantage of much, much better range than other units. I like the FE2 implementation where they can hit stuff from up to five squares away. Anyone hack that into a GBA FE to see how it shakes out in actual play?
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Mar 12, 2015 21:27
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I think this is probably my favorite stage in the game. It's challenging, has a unique gimmick, and really forces you to think and prepare.
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Mar 12, 2015 21:36
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Nihilarian posted:
Yep, it's always better to go for attacking him. Typically I bring a longbow if I'm playing on Eliwood's mode so that I can do that (when he doesn't move it's otherwise impossible to hit him) On HHM though it's not actually possible under any circumstances to open his door in time anyway (With a godlike Sain AND Kent and perfect dodging of bolting, staves, etc. and unlimited door keys and a great Hector too you could do it in 5 turns, but not 4). So it's magic reinforcement treasure or none at all. Dr Pepper posted:I think this is probably my favorite stage in the game. It's challenging, has a unique gimmick, and really forces you to think and prepare. It's a good level, and I have fun with it when I'm not doing max ranking. That's because on a non-max ranking run I can have Priscilla leveled enough to take a bolting hit or Lucius promoted or the like. With either of those advantages- especially promoted Lucius- it becomes much less luck based. I would also have had a much easier time if Eliwood or Lyn was just 1 level higher going in. I was only a single level short on getting Linus's chapter so I wouldn't have HAD to bring Eliwood. Then I could have put Heath or Fiora or whatever on the right front and killed the bolting sage before he got a shot at Priscilla. Any of those 3 things would make this chapter fun, but without all 3 of them I just had to hope for good luck too often. Melth fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Mar 12, 2015 |
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Mar 12, 2015 21:39
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Lotish posted:I never understood why Archers in FE11 and 12 have even less movement than Hunters, on top of everything else.
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Mar 12, 2015 21:41
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I think giving archers 2-3 range with most bows and maybe 2-5 range with longbows would at least make things interesting. That would give them unique utility without fundamentally changing the idea of the class. Combined with a level design that was conscious enough to give you some opportunities to use archers to counterattack once in a while (for example, ranged enemies on the other side of a wall), and I feel like archers would be pretty viable. A more radical idea might be to give them 3-10 range like the long-range tomes, or something along those lines, with a dropoff in accuracy with distance a la the status staves to prevent this from making enemy archers an insurmountable threat to your flying units.
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Mar 12, 2015 22:17
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I don't think the maps are really designed around having that kind of range on a common enemy unit. Advance wars balances it by not allowing long-range units to move and fire on the same turn, in this game it would be like giving every archer a 30+ use mini Bolting. You could never field a healer again, especially not a slow one like Serra.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:42
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There should just be siege bows
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Mar 12, 2015 23:58
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Alright then yet another change of topics, I've done yet another S-rank run of Lyn Mode, this time without RNG abuse...and, it looks like I've basically succeeded. I mean, I technically failed, but only because I did things on Chapter 10 that I didn't need to do, like exposing Nils to 30 more rounds of combat than I actually needed to expose him to, not using the Heavy Spear immediately on Lundgren, and things like that. And what's more, outside of Chapter 7x, Chapter 8, Eagler, and Lundgren, a "fair" S-Ranked run really isn't even that much harder than an RNG abused one. So, now I have another question. I actually did really well on my Funds Rank this time, to the point where I was literally only 157G away from being able to use a Knight Crest + Angelic Robe while still S-Ranking funds. So suppose I actually did that. But I could only get Sain to Level 15 or so before promoting him, even after he kills Lundgren. Would it still be worth using the Knights Crest on Sain, or would you be better served just using the Energy Ring on Florina anyways? Fionordequester fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Mar 13, 2015 |
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Mar 13, 2015 00:28
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Mzbundifund posted:I don't think the maps are really designed around having that kind of range on a common enemy unit. Advance wars balances it by not allowing long-range units to move and fire on the same turn, in this game it would be like giving every archer a 30+ use mini Bolting. You could never field a healer again, especially not a slow one like Serra.
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Mar 13, 2015 00:33
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Fionordequester posted:Alright then yet another change of topics, I've done yet another S-rank run of Lyn Mode, this time without RNG abuse...and, it looks like I've basically succeeded. I mean, I technically failed, but only because I did things on Chapter 10 that I didn't need to do, like exposing Nils to 30 more rounds of combat than I actually needed to expose him to, not using the Heavy Spear immediately on Lundgren, and things like that. And what's more, outside of Chapter 7x, Chapter 8, Eagler, and Lundgren, a "fair" S-Ranked run really isn't even that much harder than an RNG abused one. Do you mean an S-rank run of Lyn's mode where you also got Nils to level 7?
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Mar 13, 2015 00:34
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Melth posted:Do you mean an S-rank run of Lyn's mode where you also got Nils to level 7? Why yes I do! In fact, here's the pic... 
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Mar 13, 2015 00:40
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Fionordequester posted:But I could only get Sain to Level 15 or so before promoting him, even after he kills Lundgren. Would it still be worth using the Knights Crest on Sain, or would you be better served just using the Energy Ring on Florina anyways? The Knight crest gives way more than +2 stats. Early promoting is not that big a problem unless you fetishize green numbers.
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Mar 13, 2015 00:46
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Promoting early is a big deal, but if your unit has hit his or her growths alright you won't be punished for it much. Promoting at 15 won't ruin Sain or anything, and it's not like you're gonna use that Knight's Crest on anything else. With those stats he'll still be a straight up better Marcus when you get him back. It really depends on what you want.
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Mar 13, 2015 00:49
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Manatee Cannon posted:Promoting early is a big deal, but if your unit has hit his or her growths alright you won't be punished for it much. Promoting at 15 won't ruin Sain or anything, and it's not like you're gonna use that Knight's Crest on anything else. With those stats he'll still be a straight up better Marcus when you get him back. It really depends on what you want. Yeah, I figured something like that was the case. Heck, in efficiency runs on Serenes Forest, people will literally promote Sain at Levels as low as 13. The only reason I wondered was because I wonder if the benefits of 5 extra levels of EXP. for Sain in HHM, plus a more combat viable Florina, might be better anyways (especially considering how much trouble Melth had in the desert level).
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Mar 13, 2015 00:52
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Yeah it depends on what is more important to you. With those stats, Sain doesn't need to be promoted right now to be a good unit but it would give you a better crutch to lean on than Marcus. On the other hand, Florina's strength growth is pretty poor. Even if she's been hitting it in Lyn mode, you might want to give her that extra buffer to be certain she can do what you need her to do. And another thing for promoting Sain is that you wouldn't be required to use promotion item on him after Lyn mode. Manatee Cannon fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Mar 13, 2015 |
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Mar 13, 2015 00:55
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I'd use the Knight Crest. Think of it as saving 10,000 in HHM vs giving Florina +2 Str. +2 Str isn't worth 10,000. Sain is never going to be one of your top tier end game units anyway.
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Mar 13, 2015 01:00
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Melth posted:I'd use the Knight Crest. Think of it as saving 10,000 in HHM vs giving Florina +2 Str. +2 Str isn't worth 10,000. Sain is never going to be one of your top tier end game units anyway. If there's one thing I learned in Fire Emblem, it's never say never about characters. Look at Fedule's Mist. I had a Wallace that maxed everything but luck once, and even that came close.
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Mar 13, 2015 01:09
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He's talking about the Paladin stats caps, not Sain's growths.
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Mar 13, 2015 01:12
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Oh right. I always forget how quickly they fall behind once endgame hits.
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Mar 13, 2015 01:14
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Melth posted:I'd use the Knight Crest. Think of it as saving 10,000 in HHM vs giving Florina +2 Str. +2 Str isn't worth 10,000. Sain is never going to be one of your top tier end game units anyway. Come to think of it, who IS going to be your endgame team aside from the mandatory people? Pent, Canas, Harken, Raven, Heath, Sain, and some random staff user like Renault?
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Mar 13, 2015 01:15
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As it is your Sain is probably going to hit the Strength Cap on Paladin, but probably not any of his other stats. If you want a few more points in your defenses or Speed maybe hold off and give Florina the Energy Ring, but I'd probably go with the Knight Crest*. *Assuming I had efficiency in mind. As me though, nope, he's getting to 20 before he gets his Knight Crest, and he'll like it. 
Nihilarian fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Mar 13, 2015 |
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Mar 13, 2015 01:20
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Fionordequester posted:Come to think of it, who IS going to be your endgame team aside from the mandatory people? Pent, Canas, Harken, Raven, Heath, Sain, and some random staff user like Renault? It's pretty much never prudent to plan that too strictly in advance. You need to see how people actually turn out- both in terms of stats and in terms of who you can actually train. And except for the final level, you should almost never bring more than like 4 or 5 promoted people anyway. Usually just 1-2. For Light, though. Nils with be the centerpiece. Canas and bearded Canas will be very important. Everything else is a bit up in the air. PROBABLY: Heath and Sain and Florina and/or Fiora (whichever turns out better) will mostly do rescue-chaining and trading and help in some minor fights. Hector and quite possibly Eliwood will be doing a lot of the heavy fighting. Probably Raven will too. Lucius may be a major healer. Pent may be around for healing and carrying junk. For every other chapter, you should expect the roster to change every chapter. Except Canas is always coming as a primary healer/boss assassin/troubleshooter.
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Mar 13, 2015 01:29
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Alright then, there we go! Lyn Mode S-Ranked, with Nils at Level 7, with Knight Crest + Angelic Robe used, and with no RNG abuse (though I did reset once to make sure Sain got some Speed on Chapter 8). So, looks like RNG abuse isn't necessary after all, though I would still at least try to remember my RNG abuse strats up to at least Chapter 4, if not even up to Chapter 6 (wherein, I start throwing away money by using Javelins).
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Mar 13, 2015 01:54
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Fionordequester posted:Alright then, there we go! Lyn Mode S-Ranked, with Nils at Level 7, with Knight Crest + Angelic Robe used, and with no RNG abuse (though I did reset once to make sure Sain got some Speed on Chapter 8). So, looks like RNG abuse isn't necessary after all, though I would still at least try to remember my RNG abuse strats up to at least Chapter 4, if not even up to Chapter 6 (wherein, I start throwing away money by using Javelins). Come to think of it, do you have enough to get the white gem? iirc that threshhold isn't actually the same as the max rank funds level. I don't remember if it's higher or lower. Oh and what level did everyone end up at? Melth fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Mar 13, 2015 |
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Mar 13, 2015 02:32
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Melth posted:Come to think of it, do you have enough to get the white gem? iirc that threshhold isn't actually the same as the max rank funds level. I don't remember if it's higher or lower. ...Nope...darn it! Turns out you need 33,000G in order to get the White Gem! Why does FE7 have to be so annoying about this?! It may be a good game, but it's got SO many weird quirks  ... So, it seems that Angelic Robe + Energy Ring is the way to go. Because even if it is possible to use the Knight's Crest, it seems like the required Funds are just too strict.Anyways though, here are the levels... code:Fionordequester fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Mar 13, 2015 |
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Mar 13, 2015 03:49
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Manatee Cannon posted:He's talking about the Paladin stats caps, not Sain's growths. I don't think Paladin's lowish caps mean much since they have a horse and can use every relevant weapon type.
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Mar 13, 2015 03:58
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I don't necessarily agree that Paladins are worse than your average unit in the end game either, since most people won't be hitting the higher caps anyway. But that is his reasoning, as has been stated before in the thread. It is true that they will be left behind if, say, Heath or Dart hit their growths since they simply do not have as much room to grow.
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Mar 13, 2015 04:17
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Dr Pepper posted:I don't think Paladin's lowish caps mean much since they have a horse and can use every relevant weapon type. For a balanced character they wouldn't matter, but for someone like Sain who's really all about the strength and nothing else, they hurt. He'll hit that 25 str cap around 20/8 or so and then he's relying on his crappier growths to stay relevant. He's still amazing as a rescue chainer, an enemy weakener or a pinch hitter, but he's not going to do the heavy lifting that Canas or Heath will be doing because the former has Luna and the latter has stats besides strength and flies.
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Mar 13, 2015 04:23
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Dr Pepper posted:I don't think Paladin's lowish caps mean much since they have a horse and can use every relevant weapon type. That's great early game. Paladin syndrome sets in later on though. In nearly every FE cavaliers and paladins come roaring out of the starting gates, but really fall behind in the late game. The thing is, a cavalier's 7 movement vs a normal person's 5 is a bigger difference than 8 vs 6 when promoted. Particularly since the details of terrain costs actually make promoted infantry faster for woods than paladins among other things. Plus the later in the game you go, the more flyers become available- and the better they get. And every flying unit completely trashes paladins for mobility. Late in this game you can easily be fielding 3 flyers; 4 or 5 isn't impossible. So having a horse becomes a lot less helpful as infantry become decently mobile too and you have to compete with people who have pegasi and wyverns. You end up with infantry and mages with better stats than you pushing you out of the serious fighting role and falco knights and wyvern lords dominating the high mobility niche. Meanwhile, the weapon triangle means a lot less later in the game. Your base avoids become huge and your accuracy goes off the charts. Plus you have much more flexibility with regard to what units you even bring to each chapter and their starting position, making it much easier to just send people where they don't have to deal with enemies their weapons are bad against. Plus nearly everyone else has picked up another weapon type too. And the cavalier 2 weapons vs infantry 1 is again a bigger difference than paladin 3 weapons vs promoted infantry 2.
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Mar 13, 2015 04:24
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Krumbsthumbs posted:For a balanced character they wouldn't matter, but for someone like Sain who's really all about the strength and nothing else, they hurt. He'll hit that 25 str cap around 20/8 or so and then he's relying on his crappier growths to stay relevant. He's still amazing as a rescue chainer, an enemy weakener or a pinch hitter, but he's not going to do the heavy lifting that Canas or Heath will be doing because the former has Luna and the latter has stats besides strength and flies. 25 is still more strength than most units average is the thing. And some of the units that get more are bad, like Dorcas. Caps aren't that important if you're not hitting them, but they do limit Paladins more than, say, a Berserker. The real problem with Paladins in FE7 is that only one of them is that good. Let's compare their closest competition, Eliwood. He has nearly identical caps, will not hit his one higher cap (strength at 27 compared to the 25 of Paladin) on average, promotes much later, and loses axes compared to Paladins. But his stats on the whole will be higher compared to the others, he's much better across the board. It has nothing to do with his caps, if we're looking at the classes objectively then Paladin is much better than Eliwood's promoted lord class. In practice, though, Eliwood is better at the end of the day because his growths are. edit: oh yeah, I forgot to mention that Paladins have long since hit A rank with swords and lances by the time they've promoted. Compare that with Eliwood, who starts with E lances. And that sucks. Manatee Cannon fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Mar 13, 2015 |
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Mar 13, 2015 04:53
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Some of it's also map design. There's this trend in Fire Emblem where early game maps, for whatever reason, emphasize mobility a bit more. You get more running battles or high-speed charges early on; late-game fights tend to be pitched battles in which you'll often move your army less distance than you could. I reckon Melth cares less about that one for the purposes of the ranked run, what with turn limits. But in general. Sorites fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Mar 13, 2015 |
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Mar 13, 2015 05:00
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Manatee Cannon posted:Compare that with Eliwood, who starts with E lances. And that sucks. Nah, E is enough to wield a javelin so that's pretty sweet.
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Mar 13, 2015 05:05
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Sorites posted:Some of it's also map design. There's this trend in Fire Emblem where early game maps, for whatever reason, emphasize mobility a bit more. You get more running battles or high-speed charges early on; late-game fights tend to be pitched battles in which you'll often move your army less distance than you could. In later fights you're dealing with absolutely massive armies of enemy units, so being able to withstand and shred a six pack of swordsman in a round can be more important than moving 7 spaces. Obviously, if you can do both than that's awesome, but more often than not the infantry units are the heavier hitters than the cavalry. Also in regards to Eliwood, I thought he started with D rank Lances, much like Lyn starts with D rank bows?
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Mar 13, 2015 05:06
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Also keep in mind that Falco Knights have a strength cap of 23, and two of them will almost never reach it. Vaida averages about 25 strength at level 20, which means Heath is the only flying unit that is actually stronger than Sain on average. They all share a flying weakness, so you have to be more careful with them than you do a Paladin, plus there are times when you really do want to use the terrain to your advantage. Flying units don't get those advantages. And having full weapon triangle coverage is important for more than just using an axe against a guy with a spear. You also have the advantage of having access to every weapon in storage, which broadens what the unit can do with what you have on hand. Krumbsthumbs posted:Also in regards to Eliwood, I thought he started with D rank Lances, much like Lyn starts with D rank bows? You might be right, I'm not entirely sure. A D still isn't good, though. Especially as late in the game as they promote. Manatee Cannon fucked around with this message at 05:09 on Mar 13, 2015 |
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Mar 13, 2015 05:06
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Eliwood starts with a D in lances. Same for the other two and their respective weapons. Edit: D means you start with Javelins and Heavy Spear, which isn't bad. Nihilarian fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Mar 13, 2015 |
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Mar 13, 2015 05:12
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Speaking of Eliwood, one other thing I've been toying with. What if Eliwood had lances in addition to swords even in his unpromoted form? To reflect him being a "knight of Pherae", so to speak. Wouldn't that be neat? Heck, it even fits with his attack animation, as you could easily make a spear attack for him without changing it really.
Fionordequester fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Mar 13, 2015 |
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Mar 13, 2015 05:20
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Fionordequester posted:Speaking of Eliwood, one other thing I've been toying with. What if Eliwood had lances in addition to swords? To reflect him being a "knight of Pherae", so to speak. Wouldn't that be neat? Heck, it even fits with his attack animation, as you could easily make a spear attack for him without changing it really. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJgWXEEnxzQ
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Mar 13, 2015 05:33
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Nihilarian posted:I don't think Ellwood's animation would work really well with lances. I did find this, though. Yeah if you actually look closely, it's just Eliwoods head on Ephraims body, which is lazy and stupid. Which given the people who made it, is part the course.
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Mar 13, 2015 05:58
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