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:snypa:ImplicitAssembler posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRJED1eCXww He took a step forward, then extended his arm and led into the lunge. He is not moving his feet before the lunge. Also, kendo is completely unrelated to rapier and there is no point trying to compare them.
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Mar 17, 2015 20:40
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ImplicitAssembler posted:Even in the static cuts, you are starting every movement with your hips first...this is bio-mechanics/sports science 101!. I guess it's a shame it's not delivering the most rapid blow/not telegraphing 101! Maybe then it would be applicable to the context we're in, which is not "must deliver as much power a possible, you never know I might cut through my opponents sword!  "
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Mar 17, 2015 21:50
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ImplicitAssembler posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRJED1eCXww Lol. I can't tell if you're trolling or just really really dumb. Examples taken from high-level competitions can't be used to describe typical techniques. You keep talking about things you don't have experience in, and I'm actually kind of embarassed for you.
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Mar 17, 2015 21:55
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What 0:40 in slow-mo doesn't show is the prep he does just before the attack. It's actually a pretty interesting exchange and he got lucky as hell to catch the redoublement on his opponents knee. He does a quick little feint just before launching his lunge. That's the prep. His opponent doesn't bite on it, or at least not hard enough to mess up his parry. L-G (Red) goes for the quick six parry, nothing there so throws down the eight to stop P's (Green's) lunge. The lunge itself is picture perfect, it's actually a great example of how everything needs to occur at the proper time and in time. The arm is fully extended BEFORE the foot lands and the attack is on-target and not giving his opponent an opportunity to counter. It looks like the feet are extending first because P retracted his arm slightly after his feint but he started his attack before the feet got moving. It's a complex action that occurred in two-time. Anyway, LG's parry is panicked and way too large making it impossible for him to riposte in time before P is able to tag him on the leg. An object lesson on keeping your parries small and why it's a good idea to retreat on the parry. The next action I'm surprised you didn't remark on, it's actually a fantastic representation of what we're all talking about with the hand leading the action. 1:08 has Red launch a beat-attack fleche. Just before he launches he's hunting for his opponent's blade. Once he's got it, he extends his arm to make the beat and then follows through with the fleche. Prior to the extension he hasn't committed to the attack yet, but as soon as his arm goes out to make the beat his body begins moving forward. The timing on this is almost simultaneous, but the beginning of the beat starts before his body commits and his beat lands as his feet are into their movement. 1:45 is cool simply because it's mind games with Green catching Red being jumpy and willing to parry any old attack that comes his way. It's actually a neat usage of the OPPOSITE of what you're supposed to do, telegraphing his intention so that his opponent parries the obvious attack then launching in right after he parries air. However, it's not very illustrative. 2:11 is another great example of leading with the hand. Actually, this one is the best illustration since you can plainly see how if he hadn't initiated his attack with his weapon then he would have been too slow in bringing it up to strike and vulnerable to his opponent's counterattack. The action begin's with Red's feint low which causes his opponent to drop his tip and spoil a counter. Green attempts to parry-riposte but is too late. Red's tip is already there before he can react. If Red had begun the action by moving his feet first while his weapon was not up and engaged then two things would have happened. First he would have been feinting too late. Instead of dropping his tip in response to what he THOUGHT would have been a low-line attack and an easy parry-riposte Green would have seen his opponent step into attack range and all he would have had to do was extend his arm. Feint or not, now Red is attempting to fleche not into a too-late parry but an extended weapon. Point for Green. Second, he would be out of proper distance. He could start his foot action further away so he's not crowded in when he begins his arm extension, but now Red must deal with Green's weapon. Green has ample time and proper position now to respond to whatever action Red will take, Red no longer has control of the situation. Note that Green responds to Red's reaction. Just like in the previous exchange at 1:45, if you predict your opponents reaction then you can score a point. Green got Red to parry garbage and won a point. Here, Red gets Green to drop his tip to a low feint before changing lines during his extension and launching his attack. That tiny little twitch cost Green a successful counter. Thing is you keep talking about power and speed, when you don't really need power. You need a little, but not so much that you must start from the hips etc. to make a successful attack. After all, you're fencing with a sword not punching with a fist. Often as not you'll touch your opponent on the retreat when power is going in the opposite direction but if you have your weapon in the proper position then you've achieved a successful (counter)attack. What moving the hand first gets you is control. You threaten your opponent, forcing them to respond to the point directed at them and the impending attack and therefore controlling somewhat what they will do next. They'll either parry, counterattack, or evade. What they won't do is ignore the threat, they WILL react. If they don't react, hit them. Finally, and what these two fencers ably demonstrate is that the actions aren't independent of each other. Even though the hand leads, it's not a situation where the one completes its motion before the next one starts. The hand starts a fraction of a second in order to achieve superior position and control, while the feet provide motive power and ALL ELEMENTS finish at the same time. Look at that first lunge, his arm is fully extended when his feet land. The two fleches similarly are coordinated in their timing of hand-foot motion. The weapon starts moving to initiate the attack and the motion of the feet, weapon, and body are complete simultaneously as the point is scored. Attack with the hand, defend with the feet. And yeah, whoever said that people who attack with their feet are free points is totally right on. I feel a little bad for them since they're still trying to coordinate their actions, but the bouts are over quick as every advance they make is met with an extended weapon to counter their attack. Parry? Bind? Just disengage and lunge in time. edit: 4:33 is when Green got wise to Red's feint low fleche! Red does the same thing, but this time clearly expecting the counter. Red's weapon goes low, drawing the counter. He's holding back just long enough to bring his weapon up to oppose his opponent's blade and then commits and scores a point. Beautiful. Excellent planning.
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Mar 17, 2015 23:06
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ImplicitAssembler posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRJED1eCXww This is how we do it in our school, and we're considered the best cutting school on the east coast (for HEMA).
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Mar 17, 2015 23:16
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Verisimilidude posted:This is how we do it in our school, and we're considered the best cutting school on the east coast (for HEMA). True enough for cuts, but at the same time we emphasize extending the arms before advancing the body on a thrust.
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Mar 17, 2015 23:27
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ImplicitAssembler posted:I got 15 years+ of kendo experience, I have competed internationally (not very succesfully, mind you). I've done some iai and are now also doing Katori Shinto Ryu. If you want to have a pissing match on experience, my regular teachers have 30-40 years experience teaching specifically european historical swordfighting between them, and they tend to agree with these videos. There's going to be some disagreement when you're discussing stuff that is 400 years or more removed from modern experience and that's why scholarship, research, and practice all are important. If you have a specific academic argument about why HEMA practitioners are doing it wrong, go pull out some research and explain it to them. These are people who study this, some professionally, and I'm sure many of them have experience with Kendo and other arts, and modern fencing. I'd wager that even most of them do. The point is, if you disagree, provide some support and relevant research, there's way, way too much of this "you're doing it wrong, I do a vaguely related thing somebody listen to meeeeee" poo poo already online, especially on martial arts boards. Maybe you're right, but a whole lot of people who are considered knowledgeable in this field tend to disagree with you. The immediate dismissal kinda offputting though.
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Mar 17, 2015 23:28
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P-Mack posted:True enough for cuts, but at the same time we emphasize extending the arms before advancing the body on a thrust. Oh, absolutely. When I practiced rapier at the Martinez Academy we were taught to close off the line of attack with the arm before lunging. Cutting is definitely a different ballgame though.
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Mar 18, 2015 00:43
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That epee video is clearly faked because a fencing match with two lean, quick epee fencers has never happened. One epee fencer must always be a human whale or possibly a normal person but unable to bounce due to a lifetime of injury, or possibly just old age. I bet it's just foil and they colored over the silver lame. More proof of not-epee: no one had to sit down after the point for a breather, or other air-gasping behavior.
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Mar 18, 2015 05:25
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I can't speak for anything other than sport fencing, but we don't really care about power behind the touch. So long as you can make contact with the blade or apply the 500g to depress the tip switch, anything above that is a waste of effort. Leverage ensures that unless you are literally fencing a baby, you cannot physically overpower someone who parries you correctly (their forte parrying your foible). In fact, punching a thrust or putting your arm/back/hips full force into a sabre cut could get your rear end carded for brutality. Epee is probably the best example for why you extend first, in fact, given its lack of priority rules. It boils down to: if two people walk towards each other, one extended and the other with a bent arm, the guy who extended first will land the touch first. Crazy Achmed fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Mar 18, 2015 |
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Mar 18, 2015 05:30
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Zachack posted:That epee video is clearly faked because a fencing match with two lean, quick epee fencers has never happened. One epee fencer must always be a human whale or possibly a normal person but unable to bounce due to a lifetime of injury, or possibly just old age. I bet it's just foil and they colored over the silver lame. judging by this thread it clearly can't be foil because they have more than 10 grams of muscle mass in their arms.
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Mar 18, 2015 05:54
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:judging by this thread it clearly can't be foil because they have more than 10 grams of muscle mass in their arms. Maybe it's sabre, neither fencer demonstrates the ability to read, write or speak words of more than one syllable Crazy Achmed fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Mar 18, 2015 |
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Mar 18, 2015 05:55
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I bet this dude was fine at fencing General Alessandro dal Borro, 1600-1656 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandro_dal_Borro
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Mar 18, 2015 06:03
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Since we're still tangentially on the discussion of cuts, how fatal/dangerous would a rapier's draw cut to the side of the head be? They always seemed like bullshit to me, especially when someone was landing them right before a wheel cut to the face, or a point to the chest.
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Mar 18, 2015 07:22
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I'm not a doctor, but ( ) you most likely could fracture the temporal bone with a solid blow from even a rapier. Even if you don't manage to damage the skull, you might still cause a dangerous concussion. However, if you just cut them on the head, it would probably just bleed a bunch since there's not a whole lot outside the skull to damage. You might lop off an ear, I guess?
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Mar 18, 2015 08:13
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Verisimilidude posted:Do any of you have experience judging matches? I'm loving awful at it apparently, and I'm curious what it is that people are looking at because I apparently can't make good calls. Ignore a lot of what Shamo said. Watch bouts/matches. A lot of them. And try judging them. A lot of them. Sport fencing doesn't have any special pedagogy beyond that. Seriously, the only thing we have going for us is a loving century of doing it, so there are old people that can and do mentor the younger/junior refs. There's no textbook. No curriculum. Just a lot of trying. Oh and failing. Failing a whole bunch. There's a reason why the officials' hotel at national events is required to have a bar, and it sucks when it closes at 11 because it's a Monday. 
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Mar 18, 2015 08:49
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http://www.badgermille.com/ is a great resource for learning to referee
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Mar 18, 2015 18:37
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BirdOfPlay has good advice and you should listen to him. Well, maybe not the ignore me part.  Also, (like BoP says) find an experienced ref who will be willing to mentor and guide you. You can shadow them while they ref and they can explain why they made the call they did, you can co-ref, and they can shadow you and guide. There's a textbook inasmuch as it's the USFA rulebook, and you need to know the current rules. It has rules for refs too. I would disagree that there's no curriculum. No formal classes I don't think. There are plenty of workshops, retreats, seminars, and there's a certification test separate for each weapon so there's definitely a methodology behind it. It is, though, something where there's more than a couple good ways to go about learning the skill and plenty of information and opinions out there to guide you along.
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Mar 18, 2015 21:32
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Also worth checking out some of the material posted on the FOC website.
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Mar 18, 2015 23:53
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Making a call with confidence is also a big part of it, as chances are neither fencer is 100℅ sure what happened during a messy exchange, either. Have any of you ever had parents/coaches threatening you because you didn't call in favour of their little Timmy? Just asking out of morbid curiosity.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:46
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First off, should mention that I was originally responding to Veri with assumption that they were looking to crib notes from Olympic fencing to get a handle on HEMA stuff. Second, all my experiences come from being an active ref for the past few years with US Fencing, or USFA, and with working national tournaments, i.e. the North American Cups or NAC's. By no curriculum, I just mean that there's nothing that sets up a schedule of learning a la what you'd see in a college class. Honestly, the system is really ad hoc, and the FOC (Fencing Officials Commission) doesn't really care about you unless you're competent enough to work at NAC's. Before you reach that level of being seen at NAC's (and, of course, being found lacking), mentors come in the form of senior refs (likely Ref Examiners with 3's or better in multiple weapons), experienced local refs, and your buds at the club who have a feeling about RoW and the rules in general. Typically, you're work your way through that in reverse order. I wouldn't hold this as being a model to exemplify, because it's just too much of a passive system. If you need more and more trained and skilled refs an you're burning out the ones you have, you can't sit and wait for some dumbass (see: me) to come and make the slog. Gadamer posted:Also worth checking out some of the material posted on the FOC website. There is some stuff there, but the most important is the current USFA Rulebook that is keeps up to date in a very profession .pdf (it has page links from the table of contents!). Even the ref handbook is dated to 2012, and poo poo's changed since then. Non-combativity, passing, wiring in epee, corps-a-corps. Hell, the two big articles about foil RoW are written by Bill Oliver, and, nothing against Oliver, but why don't we get Doug "Best Foil Ref in the World*" Finlay to rewrite those? *circa 2012 Oh, and Spamo, I was kinda sloshed and was bothered by the "epee = easy" remark. I'm not going to say it's not the easiest, but easy? Not hardly. I see that mentality coming from this stupid notion that epee is purely objective while foil and sabre are completely subjective and arbitrary. Both of those opinions are bullshit, there's a fair amount of interpretation in epee and the conventions are, like, 95% locked down. Crazy Achmed posted:Have any of you ever had parents/coaches threatening you because you didn't call in favour of their little Timmy? Just asking out of morbid curiosity. No, I've never been a part of any of those serious meltdowns that occasionally happen. I've had coaches of accuse me of lying during an appeal twice now but that's the worst, thus fair. Hell, haven't even used my black card yet.
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Mar 19, 2015 09:14
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BirdOfPlay posted:wiring in epee, That's one of my favourite "US only" rules. Your armoury team can get really wound up about very little things. Just found out I'm on the reserve list to referee the world championships, haven't had an FIE gig higher than a world cup/GP since 2012, so that's nice.
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Mar 20, 2015 18:16
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powertoiletduck posted:That's one of my favourite "US only" rules. Your armoury team can get really wound up about very little things. What's the epee wiring rule?
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Mar 20, 2015 23:08
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curious lump posted:Since we're still tangentially on the discussion of cuts, how fatal/dangerous would a rapier's draw cut to the side of the head be? They always seemed like bullshit to me, especially when someone was landing them right before a wheel cut to the face, or a point to the chest. Period rapiers weigh in about the same as a single-handed sword of their day, 2-3 lbs. They don't really have stiff enough spines for a percussive blow to shatter bone like a broadsword's will, but they'd be plenty nasty. Not to mention how badly headwounds like that bleed.
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Mar 21, 2015 09:14
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powertoiletduck posted:That's one of my favourite "US only" rules. Your armoury team can get really wound up about very little things. Haha. Fun fact: the wiring silliness didn't come from our armorers. In fact, I'm willing to bet our (AKA, the US's) head armorer had to twist himself into a corkscrew to write up the defense of it. But hey, could be worse, it could be about what constitutes crossing the lateral at the end of the strip.  And cool dude, where is it this year? I really don't keep up with the FIE calendar and World Champs always sneaks up on me. Crazy Achmed posted:Congrats! Not that I wish anything bad upon the other refs, but here's hoping you get to ref some awesome matches. It's a strange interpretation of the protection against cheating via a button, ala Boris Onishchenko during the Pentathon at the 1976 Olympics. To ensure that there is not hidden button or device, the two wires of an epee must be separate and visible from the guard to the socket. This is the main thing a ref is checking for when they lift up your pad. It's also why opaque tape is not allowed; a ref needs proof that there is no switch or button. Now several (i.e. drat near all) equipment manufacturers have a groove or channel cut into the socket to allow the wire to run through and be held in place. Now, this "mouse hole" (as it is popularly dubbed) means that a ref cannot see the wires for about an inch, because they are between the socket and the bracket it is screwed into.  ref says: "Obviously, a button could or device could be hidden there! This is no not allowed at any US Fencing competition."
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Mar 23, 2015 07:07
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BirdOfPlay posted:Haha. Fun fact: the wiring silliness didn't come from our armorers. In fact, I'm willing to bet our (AKA, the US's) head armorer had to twist himself into a corkscrew to write up the defense of it. But hey, could be worse, it could be about what constitutes crossing the lateral at the end of the strip. THankfully we're now fairly clear on leaving the side of the strip at the end - I remember 20 minute conversations/arguments about that one at FIE seminars in 2010/2011. Ridiculous. BirdOfPlay posted:And cool dude, where is it this year? I really don't keep up with the FIE calendar and World Champs always sneaks up on me. Moscow, and it's a qualification competition for the Olympics. Not many referees drop out of the world championships so don't realistically expect to go, but it's nice to be noticed!
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Mar 23, 2015 09:29
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Liquid Communism posted:Period rapiers weigh in about the same as a single-handed sword of their day, 2-3 lbs. They don't really have stiff enough spines for a percussive blow to shatter bone like a broadsword's will, but they'd be plenty nasty. Not to mention how badly headwounds like that bleed. Yeah for the most part the serious injuries from rapiers are from stabs, not that it's impossible to kill with a cut provided your sword is sharp enough. I believe(don't quote me) that historically rapiers would have only been sharpened near the tip to 6" from. Also there's possibly made-up stories of folks hammering their point slightly so that it was jacked and caused a cut that wouldn't close easily, though I dunno that folks would do that to their expensive weapons. Heavier swords, no doubt.
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Mar 23, 2015 21:35
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Zeitgueist posted:Yeah for the most part the serious injuries from rapiers are from stabs, not that it's impossible to kill with a cut provided your sword is sharp enough. I believe(don't quote me) that historically rapiers would have only been sharpened near the tip to 6" from. Also there's possibly made-up stories of folks hammering their point slightly so that it was jacked and caused a cut that wouldn't close easily, though I dunno that folks would do that to their expensive weapons. I've heard of the former but never the latter, but little historical details were never my forte. And yeah, kills from cuts were definitely possible although mostly things like the neck/inner thigh/stomach were the best targets for a kill, and even those required a decent draw/push.
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Mar 24, 2015 01:45
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Wow. I'd heard about this but never read up about it, that's some pretty brazen stuff. I did hear there was a rumour that Onishchenko was pressured into using the doctored weapon by officials, even though he obviously didn't need it - nothing substantiated, of course.  I'll have to go have a closer look at my epee tonight... I replaced the blade a while back but didn't think about this kind of thing, only about how to lay the wire out so that it wouldn't fatigue. I'd always thought that epee pretty much refs itself; can you give a bit of detail on the main things that get argued about? Crazy Achmed fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Mar 24, 2015 |
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Mar 24, 2015 02:41
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Hey fencing nerds, what do y'all do for conditioning? America got stomped by the Euros at the Purpleheart Open, partially because they're far more conditioned than we are (generally). I'm a bit of a chub right now, and I want to be a not chub. Also I want to not get winded after 3 minutes of intense sparring.
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Mar 24, 2015 03:50
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Verisimilidude posted:Hey fencing nerds, what do y'all do for conditioning? America got stomped by the Euros at the Purpleheart Open, partially because they're far more conditioned than we are (generally). Fencing specific things, lunge-redouble-redouble and keep redoubling until you get to the end of the room is good sometimes. Chuck some squats in there for good measure if you like.
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Mar 24, 2015 06:04
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Verisimilidude posted:Hey fencing nerds, what do y'all do for conditioning? America got stomped by the Euros at the Purpleheart Open, partially because they're far more conditioned than we are (generally). You can do push ups, sit ups, squats and running or swimming. These are basic, easy body weight exercises that will help with endurance, core, arm and leg strength. For pure swinging you might want to do something with Indian clubs maybe? I swing 4-6lb hammers in one hand on the reg as a blacksmith so I'm pretty sorted in that dept. Remember to stretch!!! I do supermans and hanging leg lifts for my core because my tail bone rubs in the ground when I do sit ups.
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Mar 24, 2015 07:23
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I'm a big proponent of general strength training with free weights. It can get hard balancing that with training, though, since fencing the day after leg day is a painful experience. Cardio is great too, but I feel like interval training tends to translate into fencing better than long slow runs. Some people swear by plyometrics, but I haven't seen enough success with it to comment on if it really helps. Pretty much any exercise is good, as long as you can still stand when it's time to practice. Be careful pushing yourself to the limit when you are practicing technique, though. The occasional 100 point match can be fun, but when you notice your form getting really sloppy you are doing yourself more harm than good.
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Mar 24, 2015 11:25
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Don't forget deadlifts and back/core exercises too! I destroyed my muscles in a tournament once because I wasn't quite fit enough and I was doing lots and lots of low line actions. My back HURT. BoP, what's your way of doing foil/sabre refereeing? I'm trying to get better at them and so far the best I can do is try to visually catch when someone starts the action and hope hope that I spot their opponents parry. I always feel like I throw out a lot of points calling it a simultaneous action. I'm also only an epee fencer really so I don't have the feel of the action from the inside.
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Mar 24, 2015 14:13
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Zeitgueist posted:Yeah for the most part the serious injuries from rapiers are from stabs, not that it's impossible to kill with a cut provided your sword is sharp enough. I believe(don't quote me) that historically rapiers would have only been sharpened near the tip to 6" from. Also there's possibly made-up stories of folks hammering their point slightly so that it was jacked and caused a cut that wouldn't close easily, though I dunno that folks would do that to their expensive weapons. I think the 6 inch thing is from later swords like smallswords that are 100% only for thrusting. Again, not an expert, but I'm fairly certain rapiers would have been sharpened all the way down since I think the rapier treatises talk about cutting to a degree. Noted fan of yelling while holding a sword John Clements wrote a huge thing on them here which says they were sharp, could give a superficial to nasty cut, but not much more. http://www.thearma.org/Youth/rapieroutline.htm
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Mar 24, 2015 14:57
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Ridolfo Capoferro posted:39) I divide only the debole into the true and false edges, and not the forte, because the consideration does not occur that is made in the forte, which serves no other purpose than to parry, and were it without edge, and dulled, it would not be at all amiss, in place of point in the forte and the hilt, not only for gripping the sword, but also for covering oneself and chiefly the head in striking.
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Mar 24, 2015 16:11
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Yeah, it won't kill you but a nasty cut on the face or head ain't doing anyone any favors. It's definitely not in the 'advantageous situation' column.
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Mar 24, 2015 18:13
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Verisimilidude posted:Hey fencing nerds, what do y'all do for conditioning? America got stomped by the Euros at the Purpleheart Open, partially because they're far more conditioned than we are (generally). Lift weights, do cardio. Even a couple months of hitting the gym will make a huge difference in your fencing stamina. Go to YLLS to get an idea of a good program to start with (hint: don't do crossfit). Where can I buy a good set of fencing equipment? I'm learning sabre right now and while the place I go to lets me sue some spare equipment they have lying around, nothing really fits me properly so sometimes I'll get a helmet that wobbles around like crazy and other assorted fun stuff.
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Mar 24, 2015 23:01
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Crossfit did wonders for my overall strength and stamina, so YMMV.
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Mar 24, 2015 23:11
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El Spamo posted:Don't forget deadlifts and back/core exercises too! I destroyed my muscles in a tournament once because I wasn't quite fit enough and I was doing lots and lots of low line actions. My back HURT. I wouldn't put yourself down as not having a feel for where priority is, as an epeeist, either. You probably use it, but just as a guideline rather than a strict rule. Surely you have a feeling for whether you're attacking or counterattacking, and if you go for a parry/bind, whether it worked or not... I always try to look for where the attack starts, then look and listen for blade contact. From there, I try to work out what the contact was (parry, malparry, beat, etc), and continue until the touch. There's always the timing thing too on whether a remise lands before an out-of-time riposte begins.
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Mar 25, 2015 00:17
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