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MightyPretenders posted:Yep, tragic irony. Though Zephiel being good isn't really a twist. Guinevere told us he used to be like this, it just seemed unbelievable then. this theory also helps explain how stupid zephiel's motives in 6 are
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Mar 20, 2015 19:09
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Cake Attack posted:this theory also helps explain how stupid zephiel's motives in 6 are Personally, the way I took it, Queen Hellene had her change of heart...but it either didn't last, or she died before she could reverse the psychological harm already done to Zephiel. Either that, or she lied to Zephiel and gave him an idealized image of his dad, in a well-meaning but terribly destructive move. And plus, if you're the kind of guy who would try to destroy all of mankind rather than just, say, be content with living as a corrupt, jaded politician (like seemingly half the guys on Vikings or Game of Thrones)...then IMO, there's already something off-kilter about you to begin with. And it doesn't have to be something Zephiel's born with, it could easily be some sort of mental disorder that comes only on the onset of puberty or adulthood. Then you add in how isolated Zephiel could have been by his duties as a King, the insane amount of work that comes with being the sole governor of an entire country, and the stress of constantly being surrounded by a bunch of psychopanthic politicians (who may or may not try to kill him for his throne) as his peers rather than, you know, actually normal people from the countryside, and...yeah. Also, some guys are just not as psychologically hardy as others. And if Zephiel had, say, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (like what I have, albeit only a minor version of it), then I could easily see him obsessing over getting Desmond's attention and also being a little freaked out by his own vicious desires, to the point where he starts to warp his own mind rather than just saying "pfft, there's no way I'd ever do that", like what most normal people can do (in fact, there have even been guys with OCD who cut their own arms because they think they have disturbing compulsions when in fact, they're minds are just stuck on some particular disturbing thing they saw, and there's no way they'd ever actually do that...and if that's what Zephiel's problem is, then that would be a good reason for him "losing faith in himself", as Roy said he did)... So basically what I'm saying is, there's still plenty of room for Zephiel to become what he was, even with all that we see here. Melth posted:Not really so different from Nino, Jaffar is a very young man (18 or so at the most if I recall) raised all his life by Nergal and Nergal’s henchmen because Nergal saw their great potential as fighters. Nergal apparently found him sleeping atop a pile of corpses as a child, though I’m not sure whether we’re supposed to think he killed the others or just survived something they didn’t. In any case, since then he was raised to be nothing but a mindless killer, doing only as Nergal directed with no regard for himself. If I had to guess, I think the game is trying to imply that he killed all of those children. In fact, just judging from Naruto, which features a guy called "Zabuza" who did exactly that as a young boy, this might even be a common trope in Anime, though I don't know that for certain. Fionordequester fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Mar 20, 2015 |
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Mar 20, 2015 22:27
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Artix posted:The answer is that FE7 really has nothing to do with FE6 at all. Aside from a few "Hey, it's person X! You remember them from FE6 right?" moments (see Hector, Eliwood, Eric), the games are totally standalone, and it's pretty clear that they intended it to be that way from the start. Zephiel is one of the most egregious offenders in this regard, but he's far from the only one. Exactly yeah, we were talking about this much earlier in the thread. I prefer to think of FE6 as a poorly written alternate universe fanfic in which Athos remembered the weapon triangle and killed Nergal with Aureola instead of failing to defeat him with Forblaze 500 years ago so the events of FE7 never happened. Silver Falcon posted:
Completely agree. I mean, although it kind of throws away the satisfying nature of the ending of this chapter you could maaaaybe sell me on Desmond never getting over his hatred of Zephiel even when Hellene stops aggravating it with her jerkish behavior. But Zephiel turning out the way he did just doesn't make sense regardless. I mean, his whole deal in FE6 is that he thinks all humans are horrible all the time. But the trouble is that in this game he sees several things that prove that really isn't the case. I mean that night a pair of assassins spared his life and then a group of people- whose identities Queen Hellene and Murdock know- risked their own lives to save him again. And Eliwood and Hector can have these pretty great talks with him too like Eliwood's "On my knightly honor, you can trust me" which is 100% true and completely contradicts Zephiel's later "No one can be trusted, everyone is treacherous" spiel. And then his mother has that fantastic speech where she decides to finally stop being a jerk. Not to mention Eliwood and Hector pretty much find out Zephiel's whole background in this game -and, you know, know they saved his neck and that Hellene knew that- and it's hard to imagine that not affecting diplomacy between their nations positively in the future. Anyway, FE6 has to crumple up and discard all character development of anyone in FE7 to make its plot work, and I hate that as I've said before. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ So I'm nearing the end of this LP and starting to think about what I should do next. I'd be interested in maybe doing a less known game next time. I'd been thinking about Shining Force, which is completely inferior to FE as a strategy game but still fairly interesting and also was what introduced me to both strategy games and RPGs. I'd also been thinking about the GBA version of The Lord of the Rings: The Third Age, which I consider to be one of the greatest and most underrated strategy games on the GBA. I think I could do an interesting LP about either of those. Other interesting options might include an all 300 point S rank run of Advance Wars 2 (by far the most interesting tactical experience of the AW series) or maybe Days of Ruin (which has a good campaign and by far the best story and characters in AW) Oh or I could perhaps shift to real time strategy and talk about the wonderful and strategically deep game Majesty.
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Mar 21, 2015 00:00
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The Lord of the Rings: Third Age seems like it could be interesting, though Majesty is something I've never heard of either, so eh.
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Mar 21, 2015 00:17
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Advance Wars 2 300-point S-rank seems interesting to me if it's advance campaign, since it seems comparable to this.
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Mar 21, 2015 00:20
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Go with Third Age. Getting into the Zephiel and FE6 thing except that it works perfectly well for the guy who'd had multiple attempts on his life finally shown a bit of kindness by his father, only to fall to the brink of death and only survive due to his servent, only to discover that his father was going to murder him to. Then look at the people he interacts with in FE6. Arcard, Roartz, Narshen, Erik, Leygance, The Djute clan. all of these people stabbed their own people in the back for more power, more presitge, more money. It reaffirmed everything he believed at that point. Because his examples of non-scummy humans are... -Those three lords he met when he was but a teenager -Murdock, who's almost robotically loyal Zephiel was entirely interesting as a boss because he had so far to fall, and that he serves as the perfect mirror to a fire emblem protagonist, in this regard specifically Roy, who see's all of these same people and betrayals and humans being dicks to humans but accepts that there's a spark of decency and good no matter how bad the corruption is. But the main divide is none of the FE protagonists ever had their father try to murder them out of petty jealousy. To Zephiel, all humans are his father, and those he interacts with feed that hypothesis. That being said, he's very clearly bullshitting himself still because the case of Guinevere, and how he honestly couldn't bring himself to harm her. That's the difference between Zephiel and the Dark Sphere possesed Hardin. When you look at it, Zephiel does still have human qualities and people around him who clearly break his narrative. He's just THAT broken as a human being that he can't go off the path he's set for himself. He takes the opposing view point to the protagonist "There are evil people in this world, and they are the majority." Zephiel's actions also show a lot of self-hate, he's purposfully pushed away the people who love and care for him, like Brunya and Guinevere. And his ambition isn't "Kill all humans and then rule the world with dragons" his ambition is to kill all humans and then turn over the world to dragons, he intends to die. He doesn't think of himself as righteous. In the beginnings of the thread you said it made no sense for guinevere to turn on her brother, but she sums it up well, she didn't want to stop him with bloodshed, she wanted to find a peaceful solution. It's why she personally held onto the Fire Emblem until C16, She hoped keeping it away from him would be enough to stop him, she doesn't want to kill the brother she loves.... But he's gone insane. There isn't a stopping him without force, without bloodshed, and Roy can't just sit there and go "Well, he was good at one point, lets just let him keep on with the Dragons thing." and frankly, the loving brother she had when she was 5 years old? he's not there anymore. And she knows that. She knows she'll be branded a traitor and her name marred in the history books. But the thing is she knows she has to, she's not a teenaged girl crying for her big brother, she has to do what's right. And she's seen the world in the eyes of the court and seen the world with Roy. It'll always be a disappointment they wound up not including her as the Second lord as planned. FE6 works fine with FE7, hell this very game your playing concludes with a cutscene leading into FE6. What Artix means when he and I say "FE7 and 6 aren't connected." is that FE7 is a poor prequel, nothing it does 'Sets up' for FE6's tale, it's why we laugh when people suggest combining them into a single game with generations like FE4 or Awakening. It doesn't work. It's why when people ask me "Onmi are you going to do 7 when you're done with 6?" And I'll say "Honestly no, but I have the design document written up and the main philosophy is 'Enhance FE7's qualities to make it the best it can be'" which was the same as my philosophy with 6. I didn't focus on connecting either, outside some things that I personally enjoyed putting in and writing. But as much as FE7 is a poor prequel, FE7 is a good game, and I like it, and I like that it's doing its own thing, and if you tried to connect these games, you'd have a large narrative shift that doesn't work. FE4's generations worked because Gen 1 is spent setting up the story for Gen 2. But the overall themes and plot and characters connect to form a complete arc. FE7 ends and its arc has concluded, FE6 begins with an entirely new arc. Welding those arcs together compromises BOTH games. But they don't make "No sense" when going from one to another. That's silly.
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Mar 21, 2015 00:32
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Great job on Battle Before Dawn. It's my favorite chapter to play in this game for all the reasons you mentioned, and is my second favorite chapter in the series behind Elincia's Gambit in 10.
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Mar 21, 2015 00:34
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As said before, the hopeful tone of the end of this arc is completely intentional irony. The half of the audience that got FE6 already know how Queen Hellene's change of heart turns out - she fails to get through to the king and is probably killed at some point, the king's abusive relationship with his son continues for years, and after a nearly successful assassination attempt right when he thought his father had finally accepted him, Zephiel snaps and decides to kill him first. With Jaffar, all Zephiel knows is that some "villain" knocked him unconscious, and he woke up, confused, to the sounds of fighting and was forced to defend himself. The only iffy part is why Hellene and Murdock never told him the identities of his saviors, and honestly that doesn't spoil the plot anyway. They may have saved him from the Black Fang but they didn't save him from his father. Calling it an "alternate universe fanfic" really misses the point of the arc. Also, I'd go for Advance Wars.
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Mar 21, 2015 00:41
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Melth posted:_____________________ (...) _____________________ One good thing would be "not post unbroken lines of 150+ underscores" because it breaks tables  I've never heard of that LotR game, so that could be fun? There are two finished runs of Shining Force archived - not that it should stop anyone who really wants to do another run, but at least personally I'd rather see something new.
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Mar 21, 2015 00:49
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Here's a question that just occurred to me. If, for whatever reason, you choose not to do a sidequest, does that affect your rating at all?
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Mar 21, 2015 01:42
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Rabbi Raccoon posted:Here's a question that just occurred to me. If, for whatever reason, you choose not to do a sidequest, does that affect your rating at all? I've been wondering the same thing. I imagine it hurts the XP score?
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Mar 21, 2015 01:50
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Lotish posted:I've been wondering the same thing. I imagine it hurts the XP score? Not that simple. http://serenesforest.net/blazing-sword/miscellaneous/rankings/tables/ Those tables tell you everything you need to know in detail. Essentially there isn't just one total XP amount you have to get to by the end of the game. Rather, each chapter (and each version of each chapter) has a 5 star XP threshold of its own. Those are totalled up for every chapter you actually did and THAT"S the total you have to get to. So, say, skipping hard mode Night of Farewells means you need to get 2250 less XP to get 5 stars for XP at the end. That could help your XP score if you're not capable of getting at least 2250 XP on that level. Same for tactics and funds. If you can't beat the chapter in less than 28 turns, skipping it will help your turn count, and so on. This is what I was talking about when I said that Jerme's chapter has a nicer turn count restriction than Kenneth's for example.
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Mar 21, 2015 01:58
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I was thinking you'd miss out on potential funds and experience, but what about things like turn count?
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Mar 21, 2015 01:59
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Its the same deal. If you can do it in less turns than that levels turn limit, you gain time. If you can do it in less, you lose time
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Mar 21, 2015 02:51
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Cake Attack posted:Its the same deal. If you can do it in less turns than that levels turn limit, you gain time. If you can do it in less, you lose time And that's why a lot of people wimp out and skip 19xx and 32x- they're 0 requirement chapters so you WILL lose time.
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Mar 21, 2015 03:10
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You should do Third Age next. I thought I was the only person who heard of that game.
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Mar 21, 2015 03:28
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What if you did an FE6 remake project? Maybe that might be interesting to see, so as you can explain your thoughts both on the flaws of FE6, and how the remake does and doesn't address them?
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Mar 21, 2015 03:32
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Zephiel growing up into the ultimate pessimist makes sense to me. Even after all these Power of Love and Friendship speeches from various noble figures, his life stays terrible because his father never gets over hating him. Lesson: No matter what anyone says, the world is a massive turd and so is everyone in it. --- As for a next LP, I'd love to see you take on Advance Wars. My favourite parts of this LP have been the War Room breakdowns and the occasional  turns where this massive set-up all pays off at once. I reckon AW has the potential for tons of both.
Sorites fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Mar 21, 2015 |
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Mar 21, 2015 04:11
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Sorites posted:Zephiel growing up into the ultimate pessimist makes sense to me. Even after all these Power of Love and Friendship speeches from various noble figures, his life stays terrible because his father never gets over hating him. Lesson: No matter what anyone says, the world is a massive turd and so is everyone in it. Advance wars would be pretty boring because the best way to rank maps is to use the cheap infantry, APCs small tanks and artillery and sandbag troops while using the co that improves tread vehicles, infantry, or Colin for money cheats. You'd be completely done with war room after like 4 maps.
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Mar 21, 2015 04:21
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zolthorg posted:Advance wars would be pretty boring because the best way to rank maps is to use the cheap infantry, APCs small tanks and artillery and sandbag troops while using the co that improves tread vehicles, infantry, or Colin for money cheats. The best way to trounce the computer in my experience (with a few exceptions) is air supremacy and neotanks in games that have them. Vs humans what you said (or artillery + infantry with Grit) is the way to go.
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Mar 21, 2015 04:32
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Infantry spam is great for winning but terrible for ranking because infantry are slow (bad for speed), weak (bad for power), and die in droves (bad for technique). They're unparalleled bang for your buck, which is 90% of what matters in a multiplayer match, but you won't 300-rank a campaign with infantry tactics.
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Mar 21, 2015 05:36
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Mzbundifund posted:Infantry spam is great for winning but terrible for ranking because infantry are slow (bad for speed), weak (bad for power), and die in droves (bad for technique). They're unparalleled bang for your buck, which is 90% of what matters in a multiplayer match, but you won't 300-rank a campaign with infantry tactics. Precisely, although pumping out vast hordes of infantry back home safe in your base in the final turns is great for technique in the pre-DoR titles. Making Technique include not just not losing many troops but also not relying on swarms was a good change imo. Edit: the other thing is that, unlike in a multiplayer map, the enemy in most AW campaigns has vast swarms of stuff predeployed that will completely wreck your infantry by the dozen. In multiplayer the enemy would have to waste money to get things like bombers and anti-airs. In the campaign, they can have like 10 apiece for free at the start- or produce them for free from factories in AW:2. Melth fucked around with this message at 05:54 on Mar 21, 2015 |
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Mar 21, 2015 05:52
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Gonna chunk in a vote for the gba third age, since I don't remember much about it other than that it was nifty.
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Mar 21, 2015 07:13
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Fionordequester posted:What if you did an FE6 remake project? Maybe that might be interesting to see, so as you can explain your thoughts both on the flaws of FE6, and how the remake does and doesn't address them? No FE7 remake project. I'm already DOING FE6, and I have been for.... oh... the past 5 years? But the flaws with FE6 is that while it's a very simple, and I enjoy the fact that it's simple, story. It's very archaic. It's... to use an example, Megaman Battle Network 1 vs 2. 1 isn't really a bad game, but it is a very obvious 'beta' And 2 refined that beta into a finished project. Not all the gaidens are clear, a lot of the supports are fairly standard, as they seem to not know exactly how to go about them until later. All seize conditions, fairly unbalanced weapons and units. It's on the whole a lot of "We weren't sure how to all go about it" Oh and the last two chapters are terrible. On the other hand, there's very few filler chapters, there's Chapter 5 and.... that's about it, it's the only chapter in the game where "This exists to fill time and plot", while the last two chapters are terrible, FE6 on the whole has really good and fun map design, that are nice and large which I like. I like the variety in the cast, and I've gone through the game with quite a few different changes of cast. It's got a lot of good music, on the whole it's a very good base. It's not going to wow the world but it all flows together. Compare contrast FE7, which has a lot more character but then it blew the climax back at the Dragons Gate and we're just pissing around to blow the exact same climax at the end of the game. There are a lot more chapters that exist "To have a chapter" like Pale flower, or that are really weird logically, like Battle before Dawn. This isn't to say the games bad, it's not, it's very good. If I were working in FE7 it would be more 'remix' than 'remake' while FE6 is... well it's a remake. New classes, new characters, new items, new maps, new arcs, rewritten dialogue and supports while keeping the exact same flow of the original story, Its'a retelling, remake and remix all in one, things that don't exist in any GBAFE like Escape chapters. I don't think I'd have the energy to do FE7, and it honestly doesn't need much. Though I did write up a guide line when I was asked about it for someone elses project. If anyone cares to read my poorly edited PM document http://pastebin.com/WTcmWeSQ (Hint: It's really not that interesting)
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Mar 21, 2015 07:27
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Onmi posted:I don't think I'd have the energy to do FE7, and it honestly doesn't need much. Though I did write up a guide line when I was asked about it for someone elses project. If anyone cares to read my poorly edited PM document http://pastebin.com/WTcmWeSQ (Hint: It's really not that interesting) Personally, for FE7, I'd treat it more as an "expansion pack", as that's what I'd do if I ever did a mod of it (and who knows? I might, if I suddenly get an interest in programming). However you alter the plot, do it through added scenes, characters, and facial expressions, rather than straight up rewriting stuff. For example, one could do a thing where, instead of Eliwood Mode being a stripped down version of Hector Mode, add some more Eliwood chapters with all new scenes. For example, instead of not having a "Crazed Beast" Chapter, we could have an Eliwood version of it, but with a female noble who's basically an analogue for Elizabeth Bathory. And then if you really wanted to, you could write up some dialogue about how Brendan would cheat on his former wife with her if we want to have the same "Brendan was corrupt even before Nergal and Sonia" angle. Or perhaps we could have an Eliwood version of "Chapter 19xx", where instead of getting a flashback to Nergal's children, we'd get a flashback to Nergal's wife, who has blue hair, but still happens to bear a very striking resemblance to Limstella (see where I'm going with this? Nergal DOES say that Limstella has "perfect power and perfect beauty" after all). And then instead of meeting Teodor, Eliwood and friends would meet some low grade Fire Manakete who seems peaceful at first, but then decides that he wants some revenge for the Scouring. And hey, maybe on Hector's side of the tale, instead of having Eliwood and Ninian's budding relationship at center stage, we could still have that, but also have Nils and Hector developing something of a relationship (with Hector accidentally killing Nils instead of Eliwood accidentally killing Ninian). Or heck, maybe we could even take my "big climactic, but ultimately unwinnable battle at Dragon's Gate" idea several pages back, give Ephidel like 64 HP, 18 Magic, 18 Skill, 13 Speed, 17 Defense, 21 Resistance, 8 Con, and an Elfire tome (dropping his AS to 11). And then give Jaffar a droppable Fell Contract for an early Thief promotion, and Ephidel a droppable Body Ring in case the player somehow manages to defeat him as well. And of course, the other enemies would drop other valuable items and tons of Exp. (just so you can actually be rewarded for lasting a while)... Anyways, point is, that's how I'd do any sort of "FE7 improvement hack". Don't rewrite anything, but add in extra scenes and content instead, just like Kingdom Hearts Final Mix. Fionordequester fucked around with this message at 10:21 on Mar 21, 2015 |
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Mar 21, 2015 10:19
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Another vote for Third Age. That is another extremely good strategy game for the GBA.
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Mar 21, 2015 11:00
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Fionordequester posted:Personally, for FE7, I'd treat it more as an "expansion pack", as that's what I'd do if I ever did a mod of it (and who knows? I might, if I suddenly get an interest in programming). However you alter the plot, do it through added scenes, characters, and facial expressions, rather than straight up rewriting stuff. Okay that doesn't address what I feel is FE7's main problem, I.E. the schizophrenic geographical nature of the game, the schizophrenic plot pacing that flows all well up until Dragons Gate and then goes into filler territory until you go back to do the same bloody climax. But a lot of what you're suggesting is... while good in theory, Not what I would do. Obviously I wrote a lengthy thing about what I would do. But I wouldn't say it's a bad take on it. Honestly I will say this, I do what I do with FE6 out of genuine affection for that game while acknowledging it needs to be made better. The idea of making Eliwood mode less of a stripped down Hector mode is interesting, though not necessarily your suggestions for it. Mostly because I don't like going into speculation territory with stuff which is a LAUGH to be quite frank when you look at what I've actually done. But yeah, similar to LPing, an ernest emotion is needed as fuel. Otherwise you don't go on 5 years spending 3 of them without working tools.
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Mar 21, 2015 13:36
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In my opinion, the true brilliance of FE7's story is in how the first Dragon's Gate episode completely explodes in your face and everything after that is up in the air for a while. Other than 10, most FE plots are way too linear to be interesting. And 10 had its own issues. Post Dragon's Gate and up till Cog of Destiny, FE7 is about an emotional and a spiritual journey rather than a physical one for the characters. It's not about getting to the Shrine of Seals, Athos says quite explicitly that he could have just teleported them there. No, it's about them learning more about the world and themselves and each other and about the price of victory. That's what he wants them to understand before he hands them the most powerful weapons the world has ever seen. And that's why he takes them all back again until the final battle when it becomes clear they still aren't entirely ready.
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Mar 21, 2015 13:48
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What are you talking about, Athos never gives you a Luna tome.
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Mar 21, 2015 13:52
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Onmi posted:Go with Third Age. Getting into the Zephiel and FE6 thing except that it works perfectly well for the guy who'd had multiple attempts on his life finally shown a bit of kindness by his father, only to fall to the brink of death and only survive due to his servent, only to discover that his father was going to murder him to. I'm going to have to comment on how real that is sometimes, that Zephiel would take all the people who were good to him, who showed goodness, and just chuck them aside in favor of "All people are evil (All people are my dad)." Like, it sounds like a plot hole that Zephiel sort of flat-out deletes people from his personal narrative of how the world works, but that's a thing people do. A thing people with psychological issues do, specifically. I know someone who will go on and talk about how no one likes her drawings, and no one's ever praised her art while talking to someone who has a long history doing exactly that. And the person can call her on it, they can go, "Wait a second, I can point to specific times I've done this thing you say no one's ever done. Also, you've placed in contests and junk." And she will just say that that person don't count, for whatever trumped up reasons. "Murdock, you don't count because you've always been with me, and anyway, we paid you." "Guinevere, you don't count because you're my sister." Or whatever. And then it just goes back to loop. When a person develops a Grand Theory of How the World Is Absolutely Bad For You, it doesn't matter how right or wrong the theory is in practice. You could throw good-hearted young nobles at them to save their lives until you're blue in the face, and they're not going to change their minds unless they first become willing to doubt that theory. Evidence against it simply does not count. It's like the bad end of religion, or the fairly normal end of conspiracy. So, kinda not a plot hole, that Zephiel does have good people he's met, and then decides "Eh, no, humanity's evil," or that he and his sister get along. All he has to do is keep repeating how bad humanity is in his head, and little concerns like that will stop mattering, and how he's been treated and used and deceived will all make sense to him at last. E: About FE7's plot, then... Eh, I think everyone's got some points. The pacing and arc of action is pretty wonky, and I feel like the whole Bern arc is both really cool and a massive waste of time. It very clearly stalls for time, in terms of interest in the game's main plot goes, by distracting us with a shiny new set of characters and ideas that we'll pretty much leave behind us, with a pretty lukewarm connection, literally or emotionally, with anything we're actually trying to do. The most that comes out of it is we know more about the Black Fang... But the actual thread of tension connecting it to the main plot is pretty low. On the other hand, boy, is what it distracts us with pretty interesting. I'm not sure how I'd think to change that. Maybe break up the arc a bit with something more specific to the current goals and themes of the main group? That way there's a little bump of main-thread tension somewhere in the middle of it. Cut out some filler to make the lull shorter? Make there be some sort of conflict between needing to get to the Shrine of Seals right now because Nergal's doing something important, but we can't just abandon the situation we've found ourselves in to find another way? I don't think too much needs to actually change, in terms of the plot structure's big notes; I think that the problem is not that the plot "blows a big load, then waits for a while, trying to get to the same spot." I think the problem is that between the "Oh, poo poo, son, this is serious" peak and the "Now it's time for the final battle!" peak, the bottom kinda drops out of the plot arc. D3m3 fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Mar 21, 2015 |
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Mar 21, 2015 14:14
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Melth posted:In my opinion, the true brilliance of FE7's story is in how the first Dragon's Gate episode completely explodes in your face and everything after that is up in the air for a while. Other than 10, most FE plots are way too linear to be interesting. And 10 had its own issues. I'm sorry I just can't agree with that, everything is not 'Up in the air' it's utterly banal, "Fight a bunch of units because Nergal magic'd a barrier and we couldn't think of a better bloody reason for you to have a chapter here." "Sonia didn't trust Jaffar enough to get the job done because of how he acted so sent an army out to finish the job, ignoring that sending an army is the exact opposite of a subtle assassination plot and would likely gently caress Desmond over." And the fact is the enemies you fight don't always make sense, see: Church of the Black Fang. That's not to say the journey to Bern is bad, it just should have happened before the First Dragon's Gate trip, like I suggested, you have the conclusion that happened on Valor happen in Ostia instead, and then Laus flees to Bern. by using Laus troops in a False Flag op to kill Zephiel, Desmond is given reign to invade and take Lycia as his territory and gets rid of the son he despises. FE7 has a lot of "Just happens" chapters, its very loose and frankly it suffers for it. Because the game isn't being explorative or deep it's just faffing about until its time to repeat the exact same bloody climax. Right up to someone running up to magic away the dragons except "Oh no, we missed one" Let's not get started on FE10, It's poo poo. It's complete loving trash. FE2 did an army swapping gimmick better and it was on the NES. You say the others are too linear to be interesting, but Linear doesn't mean boring, it means straight forward. I prefer my plots and journeys to be straight forward with very little jerking off and fighting just because the game would be much shorter if we cut out all the pointless fluff to having bad story flow. And FE7 has bad story flow. It's not non-linear, because the journey follows its narrative arc from start to finish hitting all the traditional notes, it just flows poorly. It flows completely fine up until Dragons Gate and then uses its finale for the end of its 'Act 1' and the thing is Act 1 is traditionally where the heroes fail and Act 2 is where they rally I.E. past Dragons Gate until CoD. So it follows a very traditional narrative structure, it's just silly because when the final act rolls around the game doesn't have anything up its sleeve. The Villain succeeds in doing what he's already done once before and you bop the dragon on the head and its goodnight, see you in 15 years to get told Desmond got shanked. The big climax at the Dragons Gate is not an achievment in storytelling it's Aerith getting stabbed, it's the last crystal breaking, it's the fellowship splitting up, it's Greil dying, it's Roy not being able to defend Ostia against Narcien, it's Emm leaping to her death to prove a point, It's Altea being taken by Hardin, it is one of the most common recurring practices in story telling. I'm really hating how negative I'm sounding because again, I think FE7 is a great game, and it's great that you have such passion for it Melth, but I think you're honestly looking a little deep into something that's a very traditional story. I mean you're not wrong when you say the journey from Dragons Gate to Cog of Destiny is a spiritual one, and one of redemption for Eliwood and Hector as both of them have failed where they needed to succeed the most, Eliwood to his father, Hector to his friends. But that doesn't stop some of the maps being bad stops. Pale Flower of Darkness needs a heavy rework, Battle Before Dawn is trying really hard to give you an army to fight in what should be a personal affair. And that's sort of the feeling in FE7 for a lot of it, a very personal affair that just so happens to have these big battles going on around it. And the story isn't a bad story, FE7 handles the three lords rather well and their growth and development until the end is handled well, even back when I was discussing the remake and that was in.... 2013? I was hesitant to suggest moving Elberts death, because it's very effective where it is in the story. Not to say you don't get a separate benefit by having it happen say... at the end of the game (Because it turns the entire journey into a hugely bittersweet one, of Eliwood being able to do so much and even save the world but at the very end of it all he couldn't save his father which was all he wanted to do.) Also that's just now made me realize the death of Athos is mirror to the death of Elbert and I'm getting annoyed and them blowing their climax in the middle of the game again... Anyway, I'm sorry for this massive derail, I like talking Fire Emblem plots, all of them. I'll keep it under the hood from now on. D3m3 posted:I'm going to have to comment on how real that is sometimes, that Zephiel would take all the people who were good to him, who showed goodness, and just chuck them aside in favor of "All people are evil (All people are my dad)." Like, it sounds like a plot hole that Zephiel sort of flat-out deletes people from his personal narrative of how the world works, but that's a thing people do. A thing people with psychological issues do, specifically. I know someone who will go on and talk about how no one likes her drawings, and no one's ever praised her art while talking to someone who has a long history doing exactly that. And the person can call her on it, they can go, "Wait a second, I can point to specific times I've done this thing you say no one's ever done. Also, you've placed in contests and junk." And she will just say that that person don't count, for whatever trumped up reasons. "Murdock, you don't count because you've always been with me, and anyway, we paid you." "Guinevere, you don't count because you're my sister." Or whatever. And then it just goes back to loop. Going back to this Zephiel's turning point between being an FE Lord and being the villain really was his parental figure. I mean think about it... Marth's father died, Alm's father died, Sigurd was Seliphs father and died, Cuan died for Leaf, Eliwood is still alive for Roy but sick, Elbert died for Eliwood, Hector died for Lilina, Uther died for Hector, Madelyn died for Lyn, Renais dies for Ephraim and Eirika, in fact King Grado dies for Lyon, Greil dies for Ike, and finally Emm dies for Chrom, and in the future Chrom for Lucina. Fire Emblem Protagonists don't just have 'Dead Parents' they have good people in their lives who passed on, in the majority cases, protecting them, Marth's to save him from war, Sigurd to save his wife and make a good life for Seliph, Cuan to protect his sister, Elbert to save his son, it goes on. Desmond shits on that, he takes the traditional Fire Emblem lord and he beats his optimisim and joy and ideals out of him until he's nothing but a shell, he, for power and selfish gain, attempts to murder his son, by showing him fatherly affection. And when you think about it Helen was a horrible mother for many years, she may have fixed it up, but she could easily have died very soon after. Zephiel is defined by his fathers death, and in mirror to Eliwood, who took his despair and forged it into a new resolve, Zephiel took that rage and forged it into a cast iron ideology. That humans were scum, that if a father could attempt to kill his own son out of jealousy, that the entire race was hopeless. Onmi fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Mar 21, 2015 |
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Mar 21, 2015 14:25
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I think that every Fire Emblem plot is exactly what it says on the tin and there is no hidden depth to be found, which is why I usually gloss over the plot stuff. On the other hand, the writer's intent doesn't mean you can't find something there for yourself and if people want to go looking for a deeper meaning then that's cool.
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Mar 21, 2015 14:30
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I think FE7 has a pretty good overall plot, except that the emotional high point is about halfway in (in terms of gameplay hours, not chapters). But it does fall down in the details. Why does it snow for a few seconds, then stop for a few seconds, then snow for a few seconds, then stop for a few seconds? Can Nergal do that? Why doesn't he ever do it again? Or is that how weather works on Elibe? You get a lot of one-note characters too, though none quite as bad as (say) Ilyana. And you get a lot of the same wall-punching contrivances that only happen because they happen. The teleporting assassin army that never use this ability to actually assassinate people is dumber than the Disciples of Order. --- Reinforcing my idea about a good big picture with weak details: Have you noticed that this LP, with probably the most positive attitude we've seen about a Fire Emblem game's plot, is also the first not to transcribe everything? Almost every other FE LP has spent considerable time poking fun at dumb cutscene moments and goofy contrivances. Sorites fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Mar 21, 2015 |
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Mar 21, 2015 16:21
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Sorites posted:There's one thing that could have improved Jaffar's demonstration. If there were some high-defence enemies he couldn't instant kill even with crits, just to show a first-time player how Lethality works. Maxime actually fits this role in Eliwood mode, as he starts out to the south of Jaffar instead of randomly in a hallway (which he's in so he can ambush a player who rushes to Jaffar expecting him to be in a relatively similar place as in the Eliwood map, Ursula's move is another example of messing with player expectations this way). Lethality is easy enough for a new player to understand anyways since it looks vastly different from the regular assassin critical, and it is guaranteed to be seen by the player when Leila is killed. The fact that it even works on enemies who take no damage (or almost no damage) regularly from the assassin and is a OHK might be lost to a new player, but I remember picking it up the first time I played the game and using it to have Matthew kill the boss of the penultimate chapter (the animation does a pretty good job of conveying "instant death" to the player).
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Mar 21, 2015 23:32
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Manatee Cannon posted:I think that every Fire Emblem plot is exactly what it says on the tin and there is no hidden depth to be found, which is why I usually gloss over the plot stuff. On the other hand, the writer's intent doesn't mean you can't find something there for yourself and if people want to go looking for a deeper meaning then that's cool. I agree with this.
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Mar 22, 2015 03:12
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Hello Melth. Hey, on Serenes Forest, in a thread called "This puts things into perspective...", I posted your "Night of Farewells" update to prove your point that Night of Farewells does NOT have to require luck in order to beat. So, now one of the users called Sirmola, anxiously wishes to see the rest of this LP, but isn't allowed to view the thread on Something Awful. Would it be alright if I converted all your updates to SSLP Testposter posts, and uploaded them for people who wish to view them without getting a Something Awful account? In any case, thanks for your time!
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Mar 23, 2015 23:20
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It'll be put on the LP Archive once he's done with it anyway, assuming he submits it to Baldurk.
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Mar 23, 2015 23:22
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Let's Play! is on the paywall rotation, I'm pretty sure. This thread might be visible come April.
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Mar 23, 2015 23:29
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Manatee Cannon posted:It'll be put on the LP Archive once he's done with it anyway, assuming he submits it to Baldurk. Which quite frankly, at the runaway train pace Melth is updating that won't take long at all.
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Mar 23, 2015 23:32
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Kajeesus posted:Let's Play! is on the paywall rotation, I'm pretty sure. This thread might be visible come April. It's a separate site; I'm not talking about archived threads on the forum. http://lparchive.org/
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Mar 23, 2015 23:34
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