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I watched a girl drop another girl from the fourth bolt in the gym today and have her deck. That was uncool. Everyone was OK though, the girl who did it felt awful and was crying and her friend gave her a hug. I didn't see how she was belaying just the fall and the slam.
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Mar 20, 2015 05:46
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Tarnien posted:We have this discussion every couple of months in here, and I want to put my perspective out there so that you (Frown Town) can have multiple opinions and decide for yourself. I haven't read McLeod's book so I don't know what he says, but I see no reason to trust him over medical professionals. High level athletes are more often than not the worst people to trust when it comes to how ordinary people deal with and recover from injury. This is a very thorough summary of the anatomy of the hand, types of injuries, and has plenty of links to summaries of therapy approaches: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3377907/ One of the cited articles summarizes treatment as such: quote:Holtzhausen and Noakes recommend one to two weeks of splint immobilization with the MPs in flexion and the IPs in extension or slight flexion, followed by a progressive range of motion and strengthening program with occupational therapy. Once the patient has completely pain free motion and 80% of their prior strength, usually at a minimum of 6 weeks, a gradual return to climbing is permitted. Patients are instructed to gradually increase the difficulty and duration of their climbs over an eight-week period. Patients are not permitted to use a crimp grip for a minimum of at least 6 weeks post -injury.8 Schoffl and coworkers,10 in a 2003 prospective study of 604 climbers with hand injuries, found excellent outcomes and a return to previous climbing level within one year for those without bowstringing who were treated conservatively No one is saying to immobilize for 6 months, but there are MUCH safer approaches to maintaining range of motion and rebuilding strength (finger stretching, rice bowl exercises, putty, etc) than climbing. If you absolutely must get back to climbing as quickly as possible, it can still take multiple months and you should not just jump right back into your previous project when pain is mostly gone.
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Mar 20, 2015 05:51
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petrol blue posted:Doing what? Doing a clinical rotation as a medical student. Papercut posted:I haven't read McLeod's book so I don't know what he says, but I see no reason to trust him over medical professionals. High level athletes are more often than not the worst people to trust when it comes to how ordinary people deal with and recover from injury. MacLeod has a master's in Medicine & Sports Science, so he's not exactly unqualified. In fact, given that he's highly educated in the subject AND climbing at an elite level, he may just be one of the best sources out there. I'm just speaking to what has worked for me personally, but I've been through dozens of injuries and independently came to the same conclusions as MacLeod, long before I read his book. The answer to injuries most assuredly is "rest, then return to form slowly." What I'm advocating for is that the recommendations of 6+ weeks of rest are excessive (again, in my own personal experience). I've found ~3 weeks for the most severe injuries to be best -- 95% of injuries will not necessitate this much rest. My finger tweaks ("Oh, it hurts to hyperextend my DIP on this finger.. Time to take a few days off") usually end up 3-4 days in total, with light rehab mixed in, followed by a quick return to full climbing form within 2-3 sessions. Regarding the article you posted: one year is (again, in my experience) very excessive unless you're talking extensive injuries requiring surgery and hardware placement. Yes, high level athletes are often different from the rest of us, but saying that they should not be trusted seems silly. They've been through these injuries dozens of times, why would you disregard their advice? In climbing, there is no vast wealth of knowledge with unlimited resources for diagnosis and management of injuries (such as in football, soccer, basketball, etc) to which you can look for reference. Climbing injuries are a relatively poorly understood entity. For every article you post saying to rest for 6 weeks, I can find one saying that immediately rehab is also effective. As a result of this conflict, each individual climber, climbing at any level, is usually left to fend for themselves in terms of what works and what does not. The top athletes are able to climb at the top for extended periods of time because they've learned to manage their injuries well and minimize downtime. People like Dave Graham, who ruptured a pulley in February of 2014, was back to "full" strength within 4 months. Jimmy Webb ruptured a pulley in late November at the Legends Only competition (https://instagram.com/p/wBrrVqqI8Y/?taken-by=jwebxl), then was back to putting up V12 FA's 3 months later (https://instagram.com/p/yrtSZ6KIxG/?taken-by=jwebxl). Yes, they may have good genetics, but if you're not going to trust the people who have personally been through the injuries and recovered, why should you trust a doctor who doesn't even climb? I got into this same argument with people last time I posted this. I'm not saying it's gospel, I'm simply saying what has worked for me. I've had great success with shorter-than-suggested rests followed by a gradual (but faster-than-suggested) return to climbing. It takes discipline and a lot of experience/trial-and-error, but I've had my share of wallowing-in-self-pity 6 month rests due to injuries, and I'll never go back to that. Not only was it miserable, it didn't even fix my injuries. Again, we're arguing over small degrees of difference -- I'm still advocating rest and slow rehab, just want to minimize the amount of time that people spend in the "injured" phase, and move them more quickly into the "recovering" phase. Tarnien fucked around with this message at 06:59 on Mar 20, 2015 |
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Mar 20, 2015 06:51
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spwrozek posted:I watched a girl drop another girl from the fourth bolt in the gym today and have her deck. That was uncool. Everyone was OK though, the girl who did it felt awful and was crying and her friend gave her a hug. I didn't see how she was belaying just the fall and the slam. Jesus. I've been leading in the gym for a few months (and outside twice) and this still scares the poo poo out of me. I totally trust my partner, but just knowing that I'm a few moves above the last draw freaks me out and I just get inside my own head. I know it's just something I have to get over though. Any tips for being more comfortable leading? It's gotten to the point where I don't want to push myself because I'm (somewhat irrationally?) freaked about a fall. That being said, when a whipper does happen, the worst I've gotten is some shaking from all the adrenaline.  edit: I can also tell that my hands get extra sweaty when leading which makes my grip not feel as good, creating a nice endless cycle.
CoasterMaster fucked around with this message at 07:43 on Mar 20, 2015 |
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Mar 20, 2015 07:41
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big scary monsters posted:Cool, maybe we'll see you. We'll be a group of two girls and two guys talking a big game and climbing really badly. If you're solid at HS get on Central Groove, definitely the route of the crag at around that grade. Otherwise Colonel's Arete and the imaginatively named Route B are two really nice V. Diffs there. Cool, I'll be a short guy with a tall girlfriend, mostly standing at the bottom of the routes looking confused at the British adj grading system, then climbing something wildly inappropriate!
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Mar 20, 2015 09:57
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CoasterMaster posted:Jesus. I've been leading in the gym for a few months (and outside twice) and this still scares the poo poo out of me. I totally trust my partner, but just knowing that I'm a few moves above the last draw freaks me out and I just get inside my own head. I know it's just something I have to get over though. Any tips for being more comfortable leading? It's gotten to the point where I don't want to push myself because I'm (somewhat irrationally?) freaked about a fall. That being said, when a whipper does happen, the worst I've gotten is some shaking from all the adrenaline. If the issue is falling, then you can train it like anything else. Go to the gym and take falls starting with small ones and progressing as you feel more comfortable until you're not freaked out about it anymore.
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Mar 20, 2015 10:20
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spwrozek posted:I watched a girl drop another girl from the fourth bolt in the gym today and have her deck. That was uncool. Everyone was OK though, the girl who did it felt awful and was crying and her friend gave her a hug. I didn't see how she was belaying just the fall and the slam. ATC or grigri? I haven't seen anyone deck outside, but I've seen people nearly deck at Movement. A lot of inattentive belaying because of "it's a gym" and suddenly someone is stopping just below the first bolt. ninjaedit:// You can be even lazier with this guy! 
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Mar 20, 2015 13:25
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ATC actually. Thinking about it she either had way way way too much slack out, was not holding onto the break well, was not paying attention, or a combination of the 3. There is no reason that the girl decked. I didn't really see it well enough. The belayer was holding her hand like it got bad rope burn or bit into the ATC possibly.
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Mar 20, 2015 14:04
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spwrozek posted:ATC actually. Thinking about it she either had way way way too much slack out, was not holding onto the break well, was not paying attention, or a combination of the 3. There is no reason that the girl decked. I didn't really see it well enough. The belayer was holding her hand like it got bad rope burn or bit into the ATC possibly. She might have fallen while trying to make a clip too. You can certainly take some big falls that way. CoasterMaster posted:Jesus. I've been leading in the gym for a few months (and outside twice) and this still scares the poo poo out of me. I totally trust my partner, but just knowing that I'm a few moves above the last draw freaks me out and I just get inside my own head. I know it's just something I have to get over though. Any tips for being more comfortable leading? It's gotten to the point where I don't want to push myself because I'm (somewhat irrationally?) freaked about a fall. That being said, when a whipper does happen, the worst I've gotten is some shaking from all the adrenaline. Just lead, lead, and lead more. Focus on where your body feels most stable, control your breathing, and find appropriate rest spots. From personal experience, it gets a lot easier to send harder routes when your legs aren't shaking. It took me about half a year to really start feeling more comfortable on lead and most of that is from pushing myself in the gym. It's something that I'm still working on myself. I found it a bit tougher to gain those skills outside because fall consequences are higher on less-than-vertical terrain that a 10/11 climber like me spends a lot of time on. Practicing falling is also a great idea. Try 'missing' a move into a fall as well as static bails so that you get a sense of what it feels like to fall while moving. Road trip to Bishop starts in approximately one hour . Hopefully I don't die.
crazycello fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Mar 20, 2015 |
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Mar 20, 2015 14:40
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crazycello posted:She might have fallen while trying to make a clip too. You can certainly take some big falls that way. Definitely true, but generally speaking after the third bolt something has to go very wrong for you to deck. She basically either had way too much slack in the rope to start with, or she fell while making an overhead fourth clip with a ton of rope pulled out, or her belayer failed to brake properly. Edit: In other news, I took a lead fall yesterday in the gym and it broke my belayer's BD Magetron GridLock. It didn't break the actual structural exterior loop (so I was fine, my fall was caught and everything), but it snapped the little retention tab off completely, leaving two sharp aluminum edges where they could have sliced the rope sheath or his belay loop. Close inspection of the soft gear showed no damage, and he put it in for a warranty claim on the biner. We'll see what they say. I have absolutely no idea how that thing managed to snap. I assume that it twisted up on his belay loop or something when he caught my fall, and there was enough force applied to it to break it. I have used a screwgate GridLock for years and had no problems with it at all. He has only had this thing for maybe 3 weeks. Double Edit (photo!): 
armorer fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Mar 20, 2015 |
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Mar 20, 2015 15:14
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armorer posted:Double Edit (photo!): Mildly terrifying. I've used a BD ball twist-lock for years without any issues there, although I know a guy who had the spring mechanism fail and made operation of the twist lock a royal pain in the rear end. Speaking of safety in autolock: has anyone looked at the Mammut SmartAlpine (the double) versus a grigri? I heard the SmartAlpine double was fully auto-locking so you could actually let go and it'd lock/brake similarly to the grigri. Confirm/deny?
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Mar 20, 2015 15:53
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Papercut posted:I haven't read McLeod's book so I don't know what he says, but I see no reason to trust him over medical professionals. High level athletes are more often than not the worst people to trust when it comes to how ordinary people deal with and recover from injury. Tarnien posted:We have this discussion every couple of months in here, and I want to put my perspective out there so that you (Frown Town) can have multiple opinions and decide for yourself. Thanks to you both for the replies. Will dig into the articles and be smarter with the climbs I attempt (as in, limit how many crimpy/slopey things I'm doing til things heal up). Have seen those metal finger rings being used by some fellow climbers in the office, will have to pick some up! My own injuries aren't mega-severe, as far as I can tell, and probably are just starting out as minor-ish nuisances. After taking several months off climbing (after an unrelated elbow dislocation), I think I ramped back up too quickly/was compensating for my lack of arm strength, and ended up stressing a joint early on that maybe never fully healed. Just want to get those tendons properly taken care of so they don't turn into something more major.
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Mar 20, 2015 16:40
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I will say that I hurt a finger and didn't climb for almost 8 months because it didn't get better and it wasn't until I said gently caress it and started regularly climbing real easy that it started to get better. Also if it hurts on slopers but not crimps it could be tendon sheath inflammation instead of a pulley injury? I've heard sheath inflammation is generally safe to climb on without risk of injury but I could be very very wrong?
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Mar 20, 2015 19:43
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spwrozek posted:ATC actually. Thinking about it she either had way way way too much slack out, was not holding onto the break well, was not paying attention, or a combination of the 3... The belayer was holding her hand like it got bad rope burn or bit into the ATC possibly. Aaand armorer posted:With most new climbing shoes, I've found that the rubber is more slippery the first few times I climb on them, but once it gets abraded a little it is a lot more sticky. I don't know if that's actually a thing that happens or if it's just some kind of placebo effect in my head, but I've noticed it with pretty much every new pair of shoes. Aaand SplitDestiny posted:Some photos from our attempted Royal Arches => North Dome, South Face linkup Aaand big scary monsters posted:Cool, maybe we'll see you. We'll be a group of two girls and two guys talking a big game and climbing really badly. If you're solid at HS get on Central Groove, definitely the route of the crag at around that grade. Otherwise Colonel's Arete and the imaginatively named Route B are two really nice V. Diffs there.
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Mar 20, 2015 20:59
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gamera009 posted:Speaking of safety in autolock: has anyone looked at the Mammut SmartAlpine (the double) versus a grigri? I heard the SmartAlpine double was fully auto-locking so you could actually let go and it'd lock/brake similarly to the grigri. Confirm/deny? Deny. It adds a lot of friction when catching a fall but doesn't lock up to the same degree as a grigri. I find that with no hands holding a climber it will slowly creep rope through, though touching the rope will cause it to stop creeping. It certainly is noticeable when catching a lead fall when compared to an ATC though. And just fyi grigris aren't autolocking, there are circumstances that will cause them to uncam and let rope through even when weighted.
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Mar 20, 2015 21:05
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Endjinneer posted:This is a lovely crag. Pictures please.  henne posted:And just fyi grigris aren't autolocking, there are circumstances that will cause them to uncam and let rope through even when weighted. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSVchbjVKLE When I worked at a climbing wall people improperly using Gri-gris caused more near misses than just about anything else, I honestly think most people would be safer using a standard ATC style device.
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Mar 20, 2015 22:01
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armorer posted:Definitely true, but generally speaking after the third bolt something has to go very wrong for you to deck. She basically either had way too much slack in the rope to start with, or she fell while making an overhead fourth clip with a ton of rope pulled out, or her belayer failed to brake properly. I use one of these - which end did he use next to the belay loop? I use the small end by the belay loop - With it the other way around i might see this happening in a fluke situation. Pretty scarey anyways.
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Mar 20, 2015 22:35
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Good video, imo lead belaying is harder with a grigri than with a plate device. I used to hang stuff from a grigri1 on a fixed line and stopped when it dropped a bucket of holds after a bounce on the rope from a small fall. Something to do with the bounce unweighting the cam just enough to let it slip and for whatever reason the cam didn't have enough friction to re-engage. Lots of people treat grigris like they catch falls but they aren't that reliable without a hand on the brake strand. I use them as I would an ATC when TR belaying.
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Mar 20, 2015 23:02
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henne posted:I will say that I hurt a finger and didn't climb for almost 8 months because it didn't get better and it wasn't until I said gently caress it and started regularly climbing real easy that it started to get better. Also if it hurts on slopers but not crimps it could be tendon sheath inflammation instead of a pulley injury? I've heard sheath inflammation is generally safe to climb on without risk of injury but I could be very very wrong? This is essentially how all of my early injuries played out. I'd take a week off, try to climb, it would still hurt, so I'd rest a week, try to climb, it'd still hurt, rinse and repeat 15 times until it's been 6 months and I hit the "gently caress it, I don't care if it hurts, I'm going to climb anyway," mentality, at which point it begins to resolve. It's a very, very delicate balance point though. One you can't really understand until you've been through it enough times, and even then it is still incredibly difficult. Pain is tricky.
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Mar 20, 2015 23:08
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Alternatively I sprained my thumb bouldering and didn't rest it properly and it has never been the same since and probably never will be
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Mar 20, 2015 23:43
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henne posted:Good video, imo lead belaying is harder with a grigri than with a plate device. You'd ideally use a shunt for that sort of thing but I've used a GriGri to hold stuff or as an ascendeur often enough when route setting, just make sure you tie a knot below it when you take your hands off so that if it slips you/the bucket won't go far.
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Mar 21, 2015 00:32
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Just buy a loving ascender or two Jesus Christ. They're like $60 even before deals.
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Mar 21, 2015 00:39
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Ascenders are a pain when you are going up and down repeatedly. I use a grigri tied off for me and a placket device for my bucket these days.
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Mar 21, 2015 04:46
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henne posted:Deny. It adds a lot of friction when catching a fall but doesn't lock up to the same degree as a grigri. I find that with no hands holding a climber it will slowly creep rope through, though touching the rope will cause it to stop creeping. It certainly is noticeable when catching a lead fall when compared to an ATC though.
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Mar 21, 2015 05:52
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Mmmmmm, I find it pretty easy to do a controlled a lower with a smart. I pull it down and away and it unlocks smoothly.
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Mar 21, 2015 07:05
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big scary monsters posted:Will do! Also hoping to go climb this ridiculous looking piece of rock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUUyI39FOf4
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Mar 21, 2015 17:30
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Endjinneer posted:That looks like it's near Once Upon A Time In The Southwest from the rock formation. Have fun! Good spot! The one I posted is at Blackchurch, just a couple of miles away from that crag. Once Upon A Time In The Southwest looks utterly terrifying.
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Mar 21, 2015 18:14
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numptyboy posted:I use one of these - which end did he use next to the belay loop? Definitely small end by the belay loop. I can't even imagine using it the other way around.
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Mar 23, 2015 15:35
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armorer posted:In other news, I took a lead fall yesterday in the gym and it broke my belayer's BD Magetron GridLock. It didn't break the actual structural exterior loop (so I was fine, my fall was caught and everything), but it snapped the little retention tab off completely, leaving two sharp aluminum edges where they could have sliced the rope sheath or his belay loop. Close inspection of the soft gear showed no damage, and he put it in for a warranty claim on the biner. We'll see what they say. I have absolutely no idea how that thing managed to snap. I assume that it twisted up on his belay loop or something when he caught my fall, and there was enough force applied to it to break it. I have used a screwgate GridLock for years and had no problems with it at all. He has only had this thing for maybe 3 weeks. Jesus Christ. I've got a similar carabiner (same thing, but doesn't have the small belay section). That being said, I love this drat thing because you can easily unlock with one hand and Goddamit are they fun to just play with. Seems like they're stopping manufacture of these since I can only find orange...so my blue one better last forever.
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Mar 23, 2015 19:47
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E/n I've noticed in the past few days my left elbow getting sore. More so than I would say is normal. It's not something I would say is painful at all but it's different than something where I would just be like oh it's just muscle fatigue from working out really hard. I am pretty sure i've read somewhere before that in imbalance in muscle strength from working one set of arm muscles a lot more than the other can cause the elbow to be sore. I forget what name was possibly mentioned where ever I read that. It's nothing I would worry about now, but it might be a sign I should work on other exercises or something. Figured I would see if there is any experience here to help ward off anything I really ought to be bothered with. I've been climbing till absolutely dead but still only 2 times a week now. I've done 3 time a week a couple times but just taken it easy on 1 of them trying not to beat myself up too bad.
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Mar 24, 2015 04:00
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www.amazon.com posted:E/n This could be the beginning of climber's elbow (or medial epicondylitis? I think that's its name). Dave MacLeod recommends eccentric wrist curls as pre/rehab for this condition, but I find incorporating a daily wrist sequence of wrist pushups and first knuckle pushups works well to keep it at bay. Start working them on the wall before you move to a kneeling position. I work up to 5x5 before I increase load by leaning further forward. Antagonist training is also a good idea, especially working band pull-aparts, band reverse flies and other external rotations of the shoulder, this helps for avoiding shoulder impingement. (Hey climbing thread!) So, as the outdoors season is coming up (at least here in Norway), it's time to set some goals for the season. What are you guys aiming for this year? I'm looking to start bouldering Font 7A and beyond, as I finished a weak season last year at Font 6C.
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Mar 24, 2015 09:58
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Falkaugaa posted:So, as the outdoors season is coming up (at least here in Norway), it's time to set some goals for the season. What are you guys aiming for this year? I'm looking to start bouldering Font 7A and beyond, as I finished a weak season last year at Font 6C. I'm finally going to send Try Again.
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Mar 24, 2015 14:41
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crazycello posted:Did you makeshift one or down climb? Haha, six days later I remember I posted. Ended up lowering a few feet down the back and scrambling up to the chains at Leaping Leaner then traversing over on rappel to clean the gear. There was also a cordalette slung around a big boulder, but giving it a tug snapped it and it looked like a pita to set up a new one. As a new trad leader it was fun, having to sort out what felt best for me.
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Mar 24, 2015 21:17
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CoasterMaster posted:Jesus Christ. I've got a similar carabiner (same thing, but doesn't have the small belay section). That being said, I love this drat thing because you can easily unlock with one hand and Goddamit are they fun to just play with. Seems like they're stopping manufacture of these since I can only find orange...so my blue one better last forever. It's not the same thing if it doesn't have the belay partition. It just has the same closure mechanism. They parts other than the actual magnet inserts are formed in different molds. They come in a few colors, just call and ask for a specific one when you're doing your online shopping.
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Mar 25, 2015 04:45
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Added a couple of hangers to the woody. Going to start training clipping positions and heavier clips - strap some chain to an old rope and start practicing clipping at odd angles/heights and try to prep for the summer season.
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Mar 25, 2015 05:42
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gamera009 posted:Added a couple of hangers to the woody. Going to start training clipping positions and heavier clips - strap some chain to an old rope and start practicing clipping at odd angles/heights and try to prep for the summer season. The woody is looking better every week. The problems on it now are intense though.
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Mar 25, 2015 05:53
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spwrozek posted:The woody is looking better every week. The problems on it now are intense though. Train harder. Get stronger. Once there s more real estate and the pinch blocks show up, it will be game time. I am all about the pinch blocks and fat pinches. For reals. 
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Mar 25, 2015 05:55
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I like pinches myself. I think I just needed to commit more and warm up some. Kind of just going straight on V4-5 is probably not my jam.
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Mar 25, 2015 05:57
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In case anyone is curious, they issued him an RMA on this minutes after he contacted them about it. No word beyond that though. In the grand scheme of things, I feel reasonably okay about this failure mode. I think it was a fluke (since I have one and have used it for years without incident) and the danger to me when I fell was pretty minimal. I would definitely not use the biner in it's broken state though, because of the sharp edges. Thinking about it since it happened, the only way I can imagine that this could occur is if he didn't have his belay loop seated in the small section, and the sudden loading from my fall was applied to the inside of the tab that broke, rather than to the carabiner itself. He swears that it was set up correctly though, and we always double check each other's setup before every climb, and I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary either.
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Mar 25, 2015 14:56
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armorer posted:In case anyone is curious, they issued him an RMA on this minutes after he contacted them about it. No word beyond that though. I forget what he was belaying with, Gri-Gri or tube style device? Not sure if this completely applies to you, but those Gridlocks can get twisted a bit funny, the hook snagging on the belay loop, etc. BD apparently recommends using it with the GriGri in the narrow end for this reason. http://www.mountainproject.com/v/psa-use-the-small-side-of-a-gridlock-biner-with-your-grigri/109091119 Again, not sure if it totally applies, but I could see if he was leaving a lot of slack while belaying (even with a tube), the Gridlock could get snagged and then load on the hook when you fell.
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Mar 25, 2015 16:26
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