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I too was confused by Ygritte's death and I had to read it over like three times. It was just so anti climactic compared to what the show did. In the book it was like "Oh btw Ygritte died" and the reader struggle like "Finally she'll poo poo up with that annoying phrase" only to have it pop up like five more times in Jon'a chapters. The show dramatized it more and it was essentially no big change other than some creative symbolism. Jon still don't know anything. Same with Reek(Ramsey Reek) popping up in Winterfell and revealing himself. That part felt so discombobulated and written so incoherently that I had to essentially just accept that some dude was really another dude and that was that. For some reason I remember reading that part over and over again like ten times and still not getting it. Maybe I was just tired.
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Mar 31, 2015 19:43
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Ygritte's death in the show and the following nod from the archer kid are better than anything GRRM could have written. I hadn't laughed that hard in years. (ASOIAF is a comedy, right?)
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Mar 31, 2015 19:44
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Blind Sally posted:Ygritte's death in the show and the following nod from the archer kid are better than anything GRRM could have written. I hadn't laughed that hard in years. (ASOIAF is a comedy, right?) Didn't the 14 year-old bishonen archer kid GRRM literally introduced in the last 20 pages leading up to the battle with a really creepy description of how young and beautiful he was and then never referenced again kill Ygritte in the books? I thought it was heavily implied in the books that he killed her thinking she was just another Wildling and not knowing that she was Jon's GF. So it basically plays out the same on the show only ths kid's kinda homely and they gave him an Origin Story that linked him directly to Ygritte, and The Nod.
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Mar 31, 2015 20:00
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Yes but he was mentioned again. Jon appointed Satin his steward and generally used him as a stand-in for the friends he sent to other sections of the wall.
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Mar 31, 2015 20:10
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I liked Ygritte's death in the books, but yeah it wasn't just you Hunky Joe-- the whole Reek reveal was terribly loving done. I barely knew I was supposed to give a gently caress about the Boltons or Reek beyond the fact that he was creepy and Reek smelled, which combined with the very weird writing in those chapters made Theon's arc in ACoK a bit of an anticlimax.
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Mar 31, 2015 20:16
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nine-gear crow posted:Didn't the 14 year-old bishonen archer kid GRRM literally introduced in the last 20 pages leading up to the battle with a really creepy description of how young and beautiful he was and then never referenced again kill Ygritte in the books? I thought it was heavily implied in the books that he killed her thinking she was just another Wildling and not knowing that she was Jon's GF. I don't think the book ever tells us how she died does it? There's just the battle, then Jon goes out and finds her in the morning, notes that it wasn't his arrow that killed her, and then that's the last we hear about that.
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Mar 31, 2015 20:29
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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The book version is so much better.
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Mar 31, 2015 20:47
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Again, the show thinks that the Best Thing Ever is show, don't tell. But without anything approaching subtlety. It mirrors TWD as an adaptation at times when they say 'okay, let's do this scene, but have it be Totally Brutallll, slap them in the face, yeahhhh.' And then throw in an '80s *head nod* for good measure. So you know he's a good guy.
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Mar 31, 2015 20:48
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Unzip and Attack posted:The book version is so much better. Right? The whole point is that the battle is stupid and pointless and how better to emphasize that than to kill the POV's love interest in a completely unceremonious way? It really rubs in for Jon how dumb it is that the watch and wildlings are fighting each other and informs his later actions as lord commander.
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Mar 31, 2015 21:04
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The book and show both paint the Battle at the Wall as this huge, chaotic mess of fight with poo poo blowing up, breaking, going up in flames, etc. all in mostly pitch black darkness. The idea that Jon and Ygritte would magically find each other and have a heartfelt moment while people maim and murder each other all around them is beyond dumb. The nearest wildling would put a spear in Jon's back the moment he knelt over. Instead he gets a force field so they can have their romance novel farewell. gently caress that noise.
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Mar 31, 2015 21:27
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Show version Ygritte death was like a scene from Michael Bay's Pearl Harbor but less subtle.
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Mar 31, 2015 22:12
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Yeah I always thought the initial Reek sequence was odd. Not hard to follow or anything but just seemed weird. Reek is here and how he's Ramsey who is a Bolton but not a real Bolton and now Theon is Reek. I imagine he's going for the whole "readers hate-him-then-like-him" Jaime Lannister reversal with Theon. Jaime's reversal to me is one of the most impressive aspects of this story. For the first book or two I seriously hated his loving guts and wanted him to die the grisliest death possible. Now he's maybe my favorite POV. I hope he doesn't die.
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Mar 31, 2015 22:36
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Ross posted:Jaime's reversal to me is one of the most impressive aspects of this story. For the first book or two I seriously hated his loving guts and wanted him to die the grisliest death possible. Now he's maybe my favorite POV. I hope he doesn't die. For all the many many flaws the tricks GRRM pulled with Jamie, Sansa, and Arya (she started off the fan darling but by Book 5 it's painfully obvious she's lost nearly all of her humanity and will likely never ever get it back) have made the whole retarded enterprise worthwhile. A pity the ending is now locked-in to suck.
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Mar 31, 2015 22:45
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mind the walrus posted:A pity the ending is now locked-in to suck. I'm sure HBO will make it entertaining 
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Mar 31, 2015 22:53
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Don't forget almost feeling bad for Cersei. That's some really good storyboarding bogged down by Myrish swamp writing.
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Apr 1, 2015 00:49
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Glad I'm not the only one who had read that initial Reek section over a few times, I just kept thinking what the gently caress is this guy doing and bringing a bag with something shiney in it OOOOOOOOOOOHHH i guess it all fits now that it has been explicitly explained to me. In the next book.
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Apr 1, 2015 00:49
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A GLISTENING HODOR posted:Don't forget almost feeling bad for Cersei. That's some really good storyboarding bogged down by Myrish swamp writing. Yeah I have a tendency to make bad decisions under the influence too. Not like incest or arranging mass suicides or murdering my spouse, but ya know. Sobering up in church jail must have been brutal on her psyche.
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Apr 1, 2015 02:12
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Iron Lung posted:Glad I'm not the only one who had read that initial Reek section over a few times, I just kept thinking what the gently caress is this guy doing and bringing a bag with something shiney in it OOOOOOOOOOOHHH i guess it all fits now that it has been explicitly explained to me. In the next book. Same. I read the Reek stuff and my internal thought was "ehhh" but by the end of what we have of the Reek plotline, the Reek chapters own
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Apr 1, 2015 02:28
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I don't get the Howland Reed = High Sparrow theory. I mean we don't know much about Howland but we know he is a Crannogman and therefore very short, we know he worships the old gods, we know he is a Lord. The High Sparrow on the other hand is a zealous septon and seems to be around average height and unless I'm mistaken it's specifically mentioned that he is lowborn and no one seems to detect any sort of northern accent from him. Also the resurgence of the faith and increased fundamentalism is a lot more interesting if it's simply a byproduct of the war radicalizing the small folk instead of being some huge conspiracy.
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Apr 1, 2015 02:53
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nine-gear crow posted:Didn't the 14 year-old bishonen archer kid GRRM literally introduced in the last 20 pages leading up to the battle with a really creepy description of how young and beautiful he was and then never referenced again kill Ygritte in the books? I thought it was heavily implied in the books that he killed her thinking she was just another Wildling and not knowing that she was Jon's GF. Are you talking about Satin, the prostitute from Old Town? He's described as pretty far from 14, he's like 17 or 18 which (in GRRM-land) means he's probably fathered a few kids already. He's described as having a beard though (which he combs perfume into!) and is a very very very far cry from the 10-year-old boy-archer who we saw kill Ygritte. Grrm's guilty of writing all kinds of weird pervy crap into his books but I feel the need to at least defend accuracy. Also to the above post the crux of the horribly dumb Howland/High Septon theory is that he's pretending to be someone else so I always thought it was incredibly retarded when people would rebut it with "But Howland worships the old gods he CANT worship the new ones too!!" or similar stuff that anybody could just lie about. It's an even more retarded sentiment than the original theory so it keeps the comedy going at least.
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Apr 1, 2015 06:29
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In the books didn't Gilly also refuse to name her kid because doing so before they're 1(?) is seen as bad luck since the child might just die early on and such, whereas in the show she says something stupid like "his name is Sam!  "
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Apr 1, 2015 08:11
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Ague Proof posted:Marillion's tongue is cut out by Joffrey at the end of season 1. That was a different, similar-looking bard.
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Apr 1, 2015 17:07
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Gravity Cant Apple posted:That was a different, similar-looking bard. It wasn't. It was Marillion. I miss Wilko as Ser Ilyn. Hopefully he can come back now that his health is improving.
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Apr 1, 2015 17:21
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In It For The Tank posted:I miss Wilko as Ser Ilyn. Hopefully he can come back now that his health is improving. It is? I'd heard it was terminal. *checks* He is getting better! That's great news! 
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Apr 1, 2015 18:06
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kaworu posted:Also to the above post the crux of the horribly dumb Howland/High Septon theory is that he's pretending to be someone else so I always thought it was incredibly retarded when people would rebut it with "But Howland worships the old gods he CANT worship the new ones too!!" or similar stuff that anybody could just lie about. It's an even more retarded sentiment than the original theory so it keeps the comedy going at least. I get that but I just don't see why someone would go through all the trouble of disguising himself as a septon and spend presumably months gathering followers among the sparrows just in case the current High Septon happened to die around the time they reached the city. Seems to be a bit too much trouble just to gently caress with the Lannisters. Especially since I doubt the Faith Militant will stop at purging the church and nobility of decadence and corruption. Not when half the realm still keeps the old gods and several thousand of those tree pagans have sworn their swords to a man who worships a foreign fire demon. It would be a bit rash and stupid for a guy who seems to be into sorcery and spent several months or maybe even years on the Isle of Gods to work towards putting weapons and power into the hands of people who are likely to want to finish what the Andals started and chop all the spooky trees down. The Sparrows are basically the Reformation on steroids. Martin Luther as an alien spy is a lot less interesting than Martin Luther as a priest who has had enough of the church's corruption (and is also a fundamentalist who really hates the Jews).
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Apr 1, 2015 18:08
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Although I found the Howland Reed theory appealing at first, with time I can see that it's not very credible. I think the reason it came about is due to Howland Reed being so noticeably absent from the book-action, for a character who seems so important to the back-story and is presumably still alive. My suspicion is that Martin kind of forgot about him because he latched the main story on other characters that more appealed to him. I would love to know what he is up to, and House reed in general (the two kids accompanying Bran aside).
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Apr 1, 2015 18:29
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In It For The Tank posted:It wasn't. It was Marillion. You're right. My mistake. Forgot that people can move at the speed of plot in the show.
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Apr 1, 2015 18:34
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Howland Reed will come into play when it comes time to reveal jon's parentage - it's not a guarantee because they could have bran look into the past or some bullshit, but it's the easiest way.
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Apr 1, 2015 19:05
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Hunky Joe posted:I too was confused by Ygritte's death and I had to read it over like three times. It was just so anti climactic compared to what the show did. In the book it was like "Oh btw Ygritte died" and the reader struggle like "Finally she'll poo poo up with that annoying phrase" only to have it pop up like five more times in Jon'a chapters. The show dramatized it more and it was essentially no big change other than some creative symbolism. Jon still don't know anything. it's like gurm is a bad author or something
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Apr 1, 2015 19:56
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Iseeyouseemeseeyou posted:it's like gurm is a bad author or something I don't see it necessarily as a bad writer but poor editing. Yes, George seems to have the final say when it comes to much of his material but overall an editor should have picked up on that. Regardless, I'm probably a minority that actually enjoyed ACoK and that was really the only speed bump that I recall from the book. Compared to the veritable minefield of errors and annoyances in AFFC and ADWD the ones in the first three books seem so forgivable I guess. It's why I have my wife read anything I write for my work. If she can't understand it then a general audience my book is geared for won't either. Clarity is important. If you can't, as a reader, figure it out after two or three read throughs then there is a communication failure on one end. Usually it is the writer thinking one thing in his mind and the reader having a different interpretation. I really want to go back and look up that paragraph now...
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Apr 1, 2015 20:38
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FreudianSlippers posted:I get that but I just don't see why someone would go through all the trouble of disguising himself as a septon and spend presumably months gathering followers among the sparrows just in case the current High Septon happened to die around the time they reached the city. Seems to be a bit too much trouble just to gently caress with the Lannisters. Especially since I doubt the Faith Militant will stop at purging the church and nobility of decadence and corruption. Not when half the realm still keeps the old gods and several thousand of those tree pagans have sworn their swords to a man who worships a foreign fire demon. It would be a bit rash and stupid for a guy who seems to be into sorcery and spent several months or maybe even years on the Isle of Gods to work towards putting weapons and power into the hands of people who are likely to want to finish what the Andals started and chop all the spooky trees down. Yeah, basically what you just wrote is a totally great and fine rebuttal of the theory (which really is incredibly dumb) and there are other details that fall apart when you look at them more closely. As a silly idea it's fine but it's a total reach, makes no thematic sense, and undermines both what Howland Reed's (albeit mysterious) story has been so far and more importantly what the High Septon and the Sparrows' arc has been. Besides, the whole thing reeks of wishful thinking, like they want any given character with a remotely nebulous agenda to essentially rip off a mask and be like "I was actually working for Ned Stark's honor all along!" It would be really, really freaking stupid. I mean, I thought the stuff with the High Septon and the Sparrows and the general religious uprising was one of the only aspects of books 4/5 that I thought Martin actually pulled off well, and struck me as legitimately intriguing. And the High Septon is a great character on his own regardless -- I'm totally thrilled they found yet another badass character actor like Johnathan Pryce to play him who could really do the character justice and steal some scenes. Some of the stuff with him and Cersei is what I'm looking forward to this season as much as anything really. Certainly way more than any of the Dany crap we're going to have to suffer through (see what I did there) kaworu fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Apr 1, 2015 |
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Apr 1, 2015 22:45
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kaworu posted:reeks of wishful thinking Reek, Reek, it rhymes with weak, just like this theory. I just don't get the reaching that these folks do to try to come up with stuff. Do they really just think about this world constantly? Guess I haven't been that in to something in a really long time so maybe I'm getting old but I seriously don't get it. AFFC and ADWD were kind of a blur for me because I had just binged through all the books without any break, but yeah I really enjoyed the parts with the sparrow uprising because it seems to come out of nowhere, but it totally fits with the background story line and all the politics etc. Which is one of the things I like best about these books, ex: hearing snippets about the wolf pack just loving up the riverlands constantly. The little things that are actually important and not ITS HOWLAND THEY ARE BOTH DESCRIBED AS SHORT!!!
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Apr 2, 2015 00:07
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Just finished a re-listen of Swords, and man, that book moved! I think I'll miss Tywin Churchill most of all.
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Apr 2, 2015 11:31
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The Crannogmen are Hobbits. The High Septon doesn't wear shoes. Ergo he is Howland, QTE.CountFosco posted:Although I found the Howland Reed theory appealing at first, with time I can see that it's not very credible. I think the reason it came about is due to Howland Reed being so noticeably absent from the book-action, for a character who seems so important to the back-story and is presumably still alive. My suspicion is that Martin kind of forgot about him because he latched the main story on other characters that more appealed to him. *cough*Benjen*cough* Oh wait, the High Septon is Benjen!
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Apr 2, 2015 11:57
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Grendels Dad posted:The Crannogmen are Hobbits. The High Septon doesn't wear shoes. Ergo he is Howland, QTE. The High Septon is Shaggydog warged into a human. Reason: We haven't seen Shaggydog in several books. -Most Westeros.org explanations and theories.
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Apr 2, 2015 13:25
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If Howland appears at some point, I suspect he'll be bringing that letter Robb wrote declaring Jon his heir and it'll be part of the big revelation about Jon's parents.
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Apr 2, 2015 13:44
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New sample chapter out. Sansa'a tummy sighted.
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Apr 2, 2015 14:27
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quote:The feast proved to be everything her father promised. Sixty-four dishes were served, in honor of the sixty-four competitors who had come so far to contest for silver wings before their lord. From the rivers and the lakes came pike and trout and salmon, from the seas crabs and cod and herring. Ducks there were, and capons, peacocks in their plumage and swans in almond milk. Sucking pigs were served up crackling with apples in their mouths, and three huge aurochs were roasted whole above firepits in the castle yard, since they were too big to get through the kitchen doors. Loaves of hot bread filled the trestle tables in Lord Nestor’s hall, and massive wheels of cheese were brought up from the vaults. The butter was fresh-churned, and there were leeks and carrots, roasted onions, beets, turnips, parsnips.
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Apr 2, 2015 14:35
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Nuncle spotted! Edit: wow that last line about being all the spice was painful to read. Iron Lung fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Apr 2, 2015 |
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Apr 2, 2015 15:30
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frankenfreak posted:Seems legit. Not gonna lie. As soon as I saw food mentioned I skipped to the next paragraph...
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Apr 2, 2015 15:44
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