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It feels weird that I can look at that death map and go "Oh yeah, that was X and Y, I saw that happen on docco Z".
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Apr 9, 2015 04:09
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polpotpotpotpotpot posted:Yeah, seriously. I think they actually own the mountain though, not that I agree with turning the mountain into an amusement park, but uh.. that side is nepal... it's not some magical boundary free land once you get above 23,000 ft like the 'elite climbers' think it is. it's probably completely ridiculous to a sherpa for some professional climber to be trying to 'achieve' anything on Everest in the year 2013. So you have these douchy dudes who have made tons of money off climbing kicking ice at you while you're trying to work for nothing.... Judging by that interview, when confronted the climbers probably said all the wrong things like 'it's not your mountain guys it's nobody's moutain, we are free here'.  Then they try to get back in their most expensive tents and watch youtube videos on their extremely expensive ruggedized film equipment.... I can see why tensions would rise
ethanol fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Apr 9, 2015 |
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Apr 9, 2015 04:23
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Leperflesh posted:On the other hand, I doubt that if you just happen to find someone's unpublished manuscript lying around where they dropped it in the wilderness when they died, you get to just publish it yourself and claim copyrights on it. Or even claim that because it was "lost" in some way, it became public domain. I honestly don't know what laws apply there, but I'm sure it's not that straightforward. It might even be the case that Nepal's own local laws on ownership of found, abandoned property have a say. Up to and including, potentially, salvage rules, rules about things found on people's corpses when they die, inheritance rights, and so on. Something like this happens: quote:The Earliest Diary of John Adams, a supplement: 1753–1759,... the original of which is in the Vermont Historical Society, was unknown until it was discovered in the early 1960s; its publication in 1966 was its first appearance in print. Since it was published in 1966, no renewal of copyright was needed; the 1753 diary is protected until 2062 (1966 + 95), for a total of 309 years of protection. http://blog.librarylaw.com/libraryl...protection.html
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Apr 9, 2015 04:32
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ah yes the Sherpas, whose native home is everest, who spend their entire lives climbing everest, who were busy fixing lines so fewer morons die on everest, who hold everest as a sacred part of their culture, they're the ones in the wrong here. obviously.
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Apr 9, 2015 04:35
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theflyingexecutive posted:ah yes the Sherpas, whose native home is everest, who spend their entire lives climbing everest, who were busy fixing lines so fewer morons die on everest, who hold everest as a sacred part of their culture, they're the ones in the wrong here. obviously. lol. Sherpas live on everest and climb it their entire lives.
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Apr 9, 2015 04:56
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A bunch of savages who threaten murder after getting upset because some guys are climbing a mountain surely have the moral high ground lol
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Apr 9, 2015 05:12
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Paramemetic posted:Well, I mean, he's right. The commercial expeditions don't own the mountain and if he's being entirely self-sufficient and avoiding even using their fixed lines, they shouldn't be allowed to say "hey mountain's closed we're fixing lines." It's entirely possible they kept him looped out because he also wasn't paying them their fees and so on. They don't get to say "hey we're climbing today, if you're not part of a tourist group gently caress off." OK, sure, the alpinists were technically right, but it seems like they made zero loving effort to get the lay of the land or work with anyone else on the mountain. they probably could have worked something out with the sherpas and had no conflict at all, but by his own account they just blew through, pissed off a bunch of people they really shouldn't ("you get hit with ice all the time climbing!" isn't an excuse), and almost got sent down the mountain on stretchers for it. padijun fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Apr 9, 2015 |
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Apr 9, 2015 05:12
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Alison Hargreaves climbed the Eiger while six months' pregnant, and later died on K2 when her kid was six years old. Said kid decided dying on mountains sounded good and just finished climbing all six north faces of the Alps in one winter, alone without a support crew: http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web15s/newswire-tom-ballard-6-alps-peaks-solo-winter
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Apr 9, 2015 05:45
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Trillian posted:Alison Hargreaves climbed the Eiger while six months' pregnant, and later died on K2 when her kid was six years old. quote:A few months later on August 13, Hargreaves reached the summit of K2, but she was blown off the mountain with five other climbers on the descent by winds exceeding 260 miles per hour. Oh my god, when I heard K2 had strong winds I never imagined that. Even if that's supposed to be in kilometers an hour(?), she pretty much faced a sustained F4 tornado while on K2's cliffs.
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Apr 9, 2015 06:37
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tentative8e8op posted:Oh my god, when I heard K2 had strong winds I never imagined that. Even if that's supposed to be in kilometers an hour(?), she pretty much faced a sustained F4 tornado while on K2's cliffs. Well she didn't reaallllllllly sustain it if she got blown off, did she?
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Apr 9, 2015 06:40
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tentative8e8op posted:Oh my god, when I heard K2 had strong winds I never imagined that. Even if that's supposed to be in kilometers an hour(?), she pretty much faced a sustained F4 tornado while on K2's cliffs. It's miles. Edmund Hillary's son was on the same K2 expedition and turned back. He wrote this: quote:What would it have been like up there? Imagine yourself in a large commercial freezer; its minus 40 degrees, there’s a 747 engine at one end of the freezer, blasting freezing air at you at 300, perhaps 400 kilometres per hour. Tilt the entire freezer on to a 50 degree angle, so that you are clawing with your ice-axes and the crampons on your boots to secure purchase. Bear in mind that at over 8,000 metres there is less than one third the amount of oxygen in the air as at sea level and your lungs are heaving with a wild rate of hyperventilation that is only sufficient to enable you to move at a snail’s pace; your circulation is impaired by the acclimatisation process and the cold is eating into your toes and fingertips. Now turn off the light.
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Apr 9, 2015 07:34
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theflyingexecutive posted:ah yes the Sherpas, whose native home is everest, who spend their entire lives climbing everest, who were busy fixing lines so fewer morons die on everest, who hold everest as a sacred part of their culture, they're the ones in the wrong here. obviously. I live near Blue Mountain and can look up at it every day. I could probably even work on it if I so choose and the forest service needed more janitors or whatever. That doesn't mean I own it, that doesn't mean I get to tell other people what to do on it.
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Apr 9, 2015 09:44
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theflyingexecutive posted:ah yes the Sherpas, whose native home is everest, who spend their entire lives climbing everest, who were busy fixing lines so fewer morons die on everest, who hold everest as a sacred part of their culture, they're the ones in the wrong here. obviously. Lol at this. Sherpas, who are ethnically from Kham, Tibet, and were displaced probably about 800 years ago into the Everest valleys, and who, prior to British expeditions in the 20s, never attempted to climb Everest, and of whom the vast majority are not climbing Sherpas (it is a niche profession, most Sherpas are not climbing Sherpas, it's an important distinction, just like all Gurkhas are not Gurkha Riflemen), who were doing the job they were paid to do, do not get to claim exclusive ownership on climbing the mountain. They are an ethnic minority in Nepal, dude. It's been their tribal land since long before white dudes wanted to climb it, but these white dudes wanting to climb it weren't British imperialists claiming a right to explore for history or whatever, they were a group of extremely dedicated and talented climbers trying to climb a thing that they had a permit to climb. ethanol posted:I think they actually own the mountain though, not that I agree with turning the mountain into an amusement park, but uh.. that side is nepal... it's not some magical boundary free land once you get above 23,000 ft like the 'elite climbers' think it is. Yes, the mountain is in Nepal. This does not mean Sherpas own it. Sherpas are an ethnic minority in Nepal, and while the area around the mountain is their homeland, and they are uniquely suited to climb, they don't own the mountain. Everest is sacred to a lot of Tibetans, second only to Kailash, really, but welp. To a Sherpa, it's not necessarily ridiculous that anyone is trying to climb it, it's a living. Nobody had ever climbed Everest before Hillary, and to the Tibetans the whole concept is kinda like "why would you want to do that?" But again these aren't some vacationers. Steck had a very real chance of breaking a current record, the dude is a monster of climbing. There almost certainly was miscommunication, I think that's the entire issue here, I don't think it's necessary to cast anyone as "the bad guy" or "in the wrong." The climbing Sherpas were doing their job that they were getting paid to do. They don't really get paid enough, and globalization has exposed them to the realization that while yes, they do get paid very, very well by Nepali standards, they probably are not making what they should be relative to the Western guides. When they were climbed over by some soloists, this of course could lead to a lot of problems. Firstly, dudes climbing without rope support and so on aren't paying the Sherpas anything, the Sherpas don't benefit at all from their being there, and secondly they're potentially interfering with what the Sherpas are being paid to do. Meanwhile, they do have every right to be there, they were climbing with a permit issued by the government that has the authority to issue the permit. Sherpas don't own the mountain, but they might feel like they do because they make climbing it possible. I don't buy this dude's narrative at all that the Sherpas were mad because they were being "showed up" or something. That's total nonsense, climbing Sherpas aren't children, they can tell differences. I can totally buy that ice fell down on a dude, and while nobody was injured, the climbing Sherpas are under a tremendous amount of pressure to perform and also have a political agenda and emotions can come into play. I suspect a Sherpa got mad, they felt their livelihood was threatened, and the early reports have it that when the Sherpas got mad and went back down, Steck and co. continued to fix their lines, which I could definitely see as a huge loving problem, because it's not only effectively scabbing their labor, but it also isn't something I'd trust. When lives matter you don't tend to go "well someone else finished fixing that rope, I'm sure it's fine." It takes a lot of time and work together to build the kind of trust that you need to rely on others like that. Steck and co. probably didn't communicate very well, it's hard to communicate very well when a literal angry mob is calling for justice and you aren't even sure why. I really don't think they "tried to go back in their insulated tents with their ruggedized equipment to watch youtube" because Steck's partner, Moro, was a huge activist for medical flights to benefit the Sherpa people, he's not exactly some "eh gently caress it" guy. Furthermore, it's not like Sherpas are climbing these mountains in robes or yak skins, climbing Sherpas use the same equipment Westerners do when climbing. According to Steck's account, they had crossed under a belay from a climbing Sherpa and he lowered down to them, Steck put a hand on him to stop him because he didn't want to get knocked off the mountain, and the guy got angry and started yelling. Steck reports they'd hit a snag and the Sherpa leader thought they'd have to relay all the rope, and Steck offered to help, which was probably not a good idea, either. At some point, Simone swore at one in Nepali, which is probably not great or helpful. Steck's account of course was written only 5 days after the event so it is a bit heated of course. So it strikes me as a very unfortunate series of miscommunications, with nobody being The Bad Guy. It's easy to go to a quick "savages think they own the mountain" or "imperialist aggressors don't care about the native people" narrative, and even convenient if you have an agenda, but neither of those really seem to fit. Not really.
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Apr 9, 2015 13:46
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No but you see the world has no nuance and I must be correctest!
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Apr 9, 2015 13:53
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im gonna lay this out real simple getting upset at douchy climbers beating up douchy climbers -----savages from this line on----- trying to murder douchy climbers for being douchy
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Apr 9, 2015 14:02
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I just saw this on a newspaper vending machine yesterday and thought of this thread: apparently 64 year old German climber Gerd Schütz has just left for Lhasa to climb Everest for the age record. Could be interesting. Has anybody ever survived a heart attack/stroke in base camp?
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Apr 9, 2015 14:16
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Hopper posted:I just saw this on a newspaper vending machine yesterday and thought of this thread: apparently 64 year old German climber Gerd Schütz has just left for Lhasa to climb Everest for the age record. From Lhasa he'd be doing the North face? He's not making the age record for another 16 years at least, current "oldest to climb Everest" is a Japanese dude who did it at age 80.
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Apr 9, 2015 14:23
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Paramemetic posted:He's not making the age record for another 16 years at least, current "oldest to climb Everest" is a Japanese dude who did it at age 80. Oldest German Aryan to climb(?) Everest. The book and photoshops are already done.
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Apr 9, 2015 14:34
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Hopper posted:Could be interesting. Has anybody ever survived a heart attack/stroke in base camp? There are doctor and emergency tents at base camp and rescue helicopters close by. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/17/doctors-rescue-equipment-everest-base-camp-busiest-season
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Apr 9, 2015 14:40
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Paramemetic posted:From Lhasa he'd be doing the North face? He's not making the age record for another 16 years at least, current "oldest to climb Everest" is a Japanese dude who did it at age 80. No Idea I only read the headline (BILD is the worst tabloid ever) , maybe I misunderstood and it is not for the age record. Let me check. Edit: The article is locked behind a paywall. I guess either "oldest tax counselor on everest" or "oldest German to die on Everest" or some other stupid poo poo. Hopper fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Apr 9, 2015 |
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Apr 9, 2015 15:05
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Maybe slowest ascent, taking 16 years to ascend then hit the age record? Maybe he's gonna walk the 280 miles from Lhasa then ascend? Lol
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Apr 9, 2015 15:08
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Maybe he's mentally handicapped. I know it sounds cynical, but it's 2015.
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Apr 9, 2015 15:11
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Has anyone mentioned The Man Who Skied Down Everest? In the mid 70s, an insane world-class skier from Japan decided it'd be fun to ski down Lhotse face. He did, and lived to tell about it; it's an interesting film. There was an avalanche that killed a bunch of members of his crew during the ascent to the face, and there's this point where the guy basically says "you know, what the gently caress am I doing, all these people have died just so I can ski down a part of Everest, what a dumb thing to die for" and then he keeps climbing.
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Apr 9, 2015 15:24
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ethanol posted:I think they actually own the mountain though, not that I agree with turning the mountain into an amusement park, but uh.. that side is nepal... it's not some magical boundary free land once you get above 23,000 ft like the 'elite climbers' think it is. Well I agree and don't. On the one hand they are the people who have lived in that area of Nepal forever, it's their home. If anyone owns the mountain it is the Sherpas; having said that, I believe something like Everest belongs to the collective heritage of humanity and really ought to belong to everyone on the loving planet
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Apr 9, 2015 15:30
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Zo posted:A bunch of savages who threaten murder after getting upset because some guys are climbing a mountain surely have the moral high ground lol The Sherpas have the highest ground there is.
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Apr 9, 2015 15:33
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Broken Machine posted:Has anyone mentioned The Man Who Skied Down Everest? In the mid 70s, an insane world-class skier from Japan decided it'd be fun to ski down Lhotse face. He did, and lived to tell about it; it's an interesting film. There was an avalanche that killed a bunch of members of his crew during the ascent to the face, and there's this point where the guy basically says "you know, what the gently caress am I doing, all these people have died just so I can ski down a part of Everest, what a dumb thing to die for" and then he keeps climbing. Then he was also the oldest guy to climb Everest to show how rad he was in '03. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuichiro_Miura
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Apr 9, 2015 15:38
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padijun posted:OK, sure, the alpinists were technically right, but it seems like they made zero loving effort to get the lay of the land or work with anyone else on the mountain. they probably could have worked something out with the sherpas and had no conflict at all, but by his own account they just blew through, pissed off a bunch of people they really shouldn't ("you get hit with ice all the time climbing!" isn't an excuse), and almost got sent down the mountain on stretchers for it. this wouldn't have happened if they'd had a gun
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Apr 9, 2015 17:41
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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For what it's worth, there's plenty of western climbers who saw the whole thing that side with the Sherpas. I think "no-one actually owns the mountain" isn't the point here. The Sherpas were doing a job for pretty much everyone else who wanted to climb and it's incredibly selfish for a couple of people to decide in their arrogance that they're more important than everyone else. The reaction was wrong but it turns out when you disrespect protocol, swear at them in their own language and grab one of them by the throat, those "savages" get pissed off!
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Apr 9, 2015 20:30
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Let's not forget that literally everyone involved was suffering from the mental deficiencies caused by oxygen deprivation. This makes every eyewitness account suspect, and also can partially or entirely explain every misunderstanding, inappropriate reaction, and escalation of the situation. Nobody high up Everest is in their right minds. Not just because they made the dumb decision to be up there in the first place, either.
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Apr 9, 2015 20:40
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8raz posted:For what it's worth, there's plenty of western climbers who saw the whole thing that side with the Sherpas. I think "no-one actually owns the mountain" isn't the point here. The Sherpas were doing a job for pretty much everyone else who wanted to climb and it's incredibly selfish for a couple of people to decide in their arrogance that they're more important than everyone else. The problem might be, as "Alpine" style climbers, the Westerners may have had no idea what the commercial expeditions and their Sherpas had planned. I'm not forgiving ignorant Western behavior, but frankly as much as these Western Climbers might be a special type of douchebag, I really don't feel it's their responsibility to check in with the rich Westerner Everest tour guide show, and the Sherpas they paid. Let's not forget these Sherpas were not some benevolent locals putting up guide ropes out of the kindness of their hearts. They're the paid employees of giant gently caress you Everest rich people expeditions.
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Apr 9, 2015 21:45
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Would like to watch a hand to hand melee at 7500 meters.
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Apr 9, 2015 22:23
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India and Pakistan have gone at it on the Siachen Glacier at up to 22,000 feet. 
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Apr 10, 2015 01:51
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Hermsgervørden posted:India and Pakistan have gone at it on the Siachen Glacier at up to 22,000 feet. quote:According to some estimates, 97% of the casualties in Siachen have been due to weather and altitude, rather than actual fighting. There's something supremely ironic about more soldiers being killed by the land they are fighting over than the actual opposing force.
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Apr 10, 2015 02:18
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Internet Kraken posted:There's something supremely ironic about more soldiers being killed by the land they are fighting over than the actual opposing force. To be fair that was most wars iirc up till the turn of the last century, what with all the disease war tended to nurture
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Apr 10, 2015 03:18
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Internet Kraken posted:There's something supremely ironic about more soldiers being killed by the land they are fighting over than the actual opposing force. The irony deepens when you consider that land is less likely to ever be used for anything than literally both the north and south poles. Neither country actually wants the land for any civilian purpose.
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Apr 10, 2015 03:46
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ImPureAwesome posted:To be fair that was most wars iirc up till the turn of the last century, what with all the disease war tended to nurture Last I checked, the Napoleonic wars were fought over pastoral European heartlands, not windswept hellscapes of asphixia and freezing death. A dude getting disease after you feed him a diet of hardtack is still the causality of war, not an environment which is anathema to life itself.
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Apr 10, 2015 04:57
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Eikre posted:Last I checked, the Napoleonic wars were fought over pastoral European heartlands, not windswept hellscapes of asphixia and freezing death. A dude getting disease after you feed him a diet of hardtack is still the causality of war, not an environment which is anathema to life itself.  
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Apr 10, 2015 05:09
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Yeah, read this. The Russian winter was literally the turning-point of the Napoleonic wars. It was his most spectacular and thorough defeat, and directly led to France's attack and defeat, and Napoleon's fall from Emperor to exile. In a very real sense, Russia - the country, the land - defeated Napoleon.
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Apr 10, 2015 05:56
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Okay, fair call.
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Apr 10, 2015 13:40
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Hermsgervørden posted:India and Pakistan have gone at it on the Siachen Glacier at up to 22,000 I've seen, read or heard something about this. I just can't remember if it was an article, documentary or radio story. The short of it was that India and Pakistan are still in this low grade war up on that glacier, and it's obviously hell for the soldiers rotated in there. Edit Here is an article about it. I think what I am recalling is this NY Times article from 1999. Yeah I am old. Apparently there was a ceasefire in 2003 and India basically "won" the Siachen conflict. The whole thing is grotesque because these guys were/are literally fighting over a completely useless and unoccupied strip of glacier at 20k feet above sea level. ZombieLenin fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Apr 10, 2015 |
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Apr 10, 2015 14:52
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