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Petr
Oct 3, 2000
Finished the season. I'm still not happy with Fisk. It's like (probably 1x08 or thereabouts) he went from scared 11-year-old to criminal mastermind somehow without the show telling us how. That's fine, except he also somehow did that while staying a scared 11-year-old inside. THAT needs some explanation. It doesn't really make sense happening offscreen.

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BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless
Lipstick Apathy

Gilok posted:

Those panels make me want to punch Joe Quesada in the head.

e X
Feb 23, 2013

cool but crude
Just finished episode 13 and honestly, I think the series peaked in the middle. The third arc just isn't as strong as the second one, mostly because I think the weird double final was unnecessary. There was no need for Matt and Fisk to face off after his empire was more or less dismantled.

It was also weirdly anticlimactic. To elaborate, I feel that scene in the truck was a mistake. 'We have people everywhere' is generally overused and while I can accept a local crimelord, and that is what Fisk is at this point, buying of local law enforcement and officials, but literally having enough power to have a small army break him out in the middle of New York and holding off any reenforcement was just too much. It also doesn't really make sense given the plot of the series. It was repeatedly shown that while he had influence, but also limits. For example, I really liked that it was the secretary, not the EiC in the end who was the mole. He wasn't all powerful, he couldn't do it all on his own, he needed allies and could be thwarted. But that last scene basically made him the Joker in Dark Knight, a guy who literally ones everyone everywhere. Having him then go down in a fistfight in an alley, only too be re-arrested was kind of a letdown.I also think it would have mashed better with the rest of the series if it actually was conventional method that brought him down in the end, that Daredevil was only one gear in the process, if a necessary and important one, but that the real victors were Matt, Foggy, Karen and ultimately Ben. It would have given the series a theme different from the Big Man narrative that basically every other Superhero story has.

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness
Soiled Meat

e X posted:

Just finished episode 13 and honestly, I think the series peaked in the middle. The third arc just isn't as strong as the second one, mostly because I think the weird double final was unnecessary. There was no need for Matt and Fisk to face off after his empire was more or less dismantled.

It was also weirdly anticlimactic. To elaborate, I feel that scene in the truck was a mistake. 'We have people everywhere' is generally overused and while I can accept a local crimelord, and that is what Fisk is at this point, buying of local law enforcement and officials, but literally having enough power to have a small army break him out in the middle of New York and holding off any reenforcement was just too much. It also doesn't really make sense given the plot of the series. It was repeatedly shown that while he had influence, but also limits. For example, I really liked that it was the secretary, not the EiC in the end who was the mole. He wasn't all powerful, he couldn't do it all on his own, he needed allies and could be thwarted. But that last scene basically made him the Joker in Dark Knight, a guy who literally ones everyone everywhere. Having him then go down in a fistfight in an alley, only too be re-arrested was kind of a letdown.I also think it would have mashed better with the rest of the series if it actually was conventional method that brought him down in the end, that Daredevil was only one gear in the process, if a necessary and important one, but that the real victors were Matt, Foggy, Karen and ultimately Ben. It would have given the series a theme different from the Big Man narrative that basically every other Superhero story has.


Haha, you try getting a politician and or big business man sent to jail through legal means in a timely manner and see how well that works out for you.

Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

hey look,
a post

Petr posted:

Finished the season. I'm still not happy with Fisk. It's like (probably 1x08 or thereabouts) he went from scared 11-year-old to criminal mastermind somehow without the show telling us how. That's fine, except he also somehow did that while staying a scared 11-year-old inside. THAT needs some explanation. It doesn't really make sense happening offscreen.

He was always a criminal mastermind and a scared little boy. The arc is him getting confidence from Vennsea to come out of the shadows and realizing he was deluding himself.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

NmareBfly posted:

Series could use some more ladies around in general. Basically all the villain NPC's are dudes, and I guess it makes sense for street toughs but were there any female cops? I think one got snipered but I dunno if any had a single line. Elektra will help with this. At least the ones they did have were all pretty drat competent -- well, the lawyer-lady whose name I forget is mainly good at stealing files without getting noticed and they don't have much of her on-the-job doing lawyer stuff, but if she's made partner you can assume she knows what she's doing. Madame Gao was great too but they had to keep her totally enigmatic so she's less a character and more a force of nature.

Full Series: I didn't wanna complain about this too much, but while this show does a better job with its women than many, maybe most media, it still has a few steps to go.

As someone mentioned, they still do the Female Lead Can't Find Out the Secret! tension. That was annoying, but Karen wasn't just there to function as the love interest of the main character, and instead got her own plot, so I'll say they're still out on top with Karen. Claire, despite Rosario Dawson knocking it out of the loving park, was mostly Matt's love interest, though. She didn't have anything of her own going on, really. Karen, Claire, and Vanessa are all put in damsel in distress roles repeatedly, unlike Foggy, Ben, or Wesley.

And I know it's a lame test that you can't use as an absolute, but I think the only scene where multiple women are in the same scene together talking about their own poo poo is when Claire talks to Shirley, the hospital administrator, for like two lines. Other than that I can count the number of times women talk to each other about anything on one hand.

Again, the show does pretty well by women. Karen, Gao, and to some extent Cardenas are all strong characters with their own plots, and Claire, Vanessa, and Marci are strong supporting characters. I thought Fisk's wife-beating dad story was handled quite deftly. The bruises you see on Marlene's arms in her first flashback were super loving disturbing.

But, there's still some room to grow.

Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

hey look,
a post

Gyges posted:

Speculation on the other series but with a bit of Daredevil episode 12 spoilers

They could bring him back and use him in the other series. It depends on when they're set. For instance what if all four series happen around the same time so over the few months that Daredevil played out Jessica Jones and Luke Cage are doing their thing and run into Ven along the way. Iron Fist seems like it's going to happen after Daredevil though since all the references to his stuff, at least to me, made it seem like the selection hadn't happened yet.

I was really hoping Ben would survive because I was curious to see this version of him possibly interact with Spider-man with that whole Sony deal thing. :(

e X
Feb 23, 2013

cool but crude

mr.capps posted:

He was always a criminal mastermind and a scared little boy. The arc is him getting confidence from Vennsea to come out of the shadows and realizing he was deluding himself.

Yeah. To counteract my criticism above, the Vanessa story was really great, especially that she the fact that she is as unmoral as he is, if not more so.

Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

hey look,
a post

mr.capps posted:

He was always a criminal mastermind and a scared little boy. The arc is him getting confidence from Vennsea to come out of the shadows and realizing he was deluding himself.

More about Fisk: To clarify, he already has confidence in the beginning of the show, in his plans and will. Just not confidence in his own image.

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness
Soiled Meat
God I wanted him so badly to put on a white suit coat and gray pants. The grey jacket was close...and his ending attire was also close...but still.

Petr
Oct 3, 2000

mr.capps posted:

He was always a criminal mastermind and a scared little boy. The arc is him getting confidence from Vennsea to come out of the shadows and realizing he was deluding himself.

That's fine, but I think they needed to show us some of how that happened. A hint about how that guy became who he is. As it is, his levels of social power and self-esteem both seem to vary depending on what is most convenient.

The Libearian
Nov 24, 2007
Return your books or face mauling
So psyched about the stiltman costume in potter's workshop. you can make him unsilly netflix, I believe in you!

Zaggitz
Jun 18, 2009

My urges are becoming...

UNCONTROLLABLE

Petr posted:

That's fine, but I think they needed to show us some of how that happened. A hint about how that guy became who he is. As it is, his levels of social power and self-esteem both seem to vary depending on what is most convenient.

My read on this is that before Daredevil showed up, his whole operation was a well oiled machine that he could run with no problems from the shadows but as soon as he starts getting dragged out and having to expose himself he reverts into this weird autistic manchild shell. Vanessa helps break him out of this but he goes back into a mad spiral after her assassination attempt and by the time she's back in his life Daredevil has hosed everything up again by exposing him fully via Hoffman.

howe_sam
Mar 7, 2013

Creepy little garbage eaters

e X posted:

Yeah. To counteract my criticism above, the Vanessa story was really great, especially that she the fact that she is as unmoral as he is, if not more so.

That was one of my favorite parts of the whole season.

Kurtofan
Feb 16, 2011

hon hon hon
Holy poo poo at the Russian barging in during Fisk's date, the guy is so dead

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness
Soiled Meat

Kurtofan posted:

Holy poo poo at the Russian barging in during Fisk's date, the guy is so dead

And how!

Kurtofan
Feb 16, 2011

hon hon hon
holy poo poo :gonk:

seaborgium
Aug 1, 2002

"Nothing a shitload of bleach won't fix"




Spoilers for most of the series I think, though surprisingly related to the subtitles: I thought the subtitles were related to what the characters believed people knew. Anytime people thought they needed a translator, no subtitles. You had to rely on a translator. As soon as the characters knew that they didn't need a translator, they got subtitles. Gao and Kubo initially didn't get subtitles as Fisk said he needed a translator, same with the scenes with Elena and Foggy in them. He needed a translator so no subtitles. Later, we got subtitles when it was just Karen and Elena, they both knew spanish. As soon as Fisk and Gao revealed they knew each others native tongue we got subtitles, there was no perceived need for a translator. Could be wrong, but that's how my subtitles seemed to be working.

Apoplexy
Mar 9, 2003

by Shine
You're right, it's what I thought was the case the whole time. It didn't confuse me at all, although [Masked Man] made me lol each time it happened.

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness
Soiled Meat

seaborgium posted:

Spoilers for most of the series I think, though surprisingly related to the subtitles: I thought the subtitles were related to what the characters believed people knew. Anytime people thought they needed a translator, no subtitles. You had to rely on a translator. As soon as the characters knew that they didn't need a translator, they got subtitles. Gao and Kubo initially didn't get subtitles as Fisk said he needed a translator, same with the scenes with Elena and Foggy in them. He needed a translator so no subtitles. Later, we got subtitles when it was just Karen and Elena, they both knew spanish. As soon as Fisk and Gao revealed they knew each others native tongue we got subtitles, there was no perceived need for a translator. Could be wrong, but that's how my subtitles seemed to be working.

That's very true, but it seems some people weren't getting subtitles at all.

Xtanstic
Nov 23, 2007

Apoplexy posted:

You're right, it's what I thought was the case the whole time. It didn't confuse me at all, although [Masked Man] made me lol each time it happened.

That and Murdock tossing his walking stick every time made me laugh. I could have sworn he has a retractable one too so it makes him ditching it doubly hilarious.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

seaborgium posted:

Spoilers for most of the series I think, though surprisingly related to the subtitles: I thought the subtitles were related to what the characters believed people knew. Anytime people thought they needed a translator, no subtitles. You had to rely on a translator. As soon as the characters knew that they didn't need a translator, they got subtitles. Gao and Kubo initially didn't get subtitles as Fisk said he needed a translator, same with the scenes with Elena and Foggy in them. He needed a translator so no subtitles. Later, we got subtitles when it was just Karen and Elena, they both knew spanish. As soon as Fisk and Gao revealed they knew each others native tongue we got subtitles, there was no perceived need for a translator. Could be wrong, but that's how my subtitles seemed to be working.

You're right, and to go further, that's because they only subtitle it if the audience is supposed to know. They don't subtitle stuff when the main characters don't understand it, because we're supposed to be identifying with them, so it doesn't make sense to give us extra information they don't have. It would undermine our ability to sympathize with the characters and understand the situation. Like if there's a "fish out of water" scene in some movie where an American is in China and everyone's talking about him and he has no idea what's being said, and he's confused and nervous, you wouldn't subtitle that, either. It's a deliberate effect.

So if two foreigners are alone talking non-English together, that gets subtitled, but if a main character is captured by those same people and they're talking about him/her, maybe that doesn't get subtitled. It could seem inconsistent, but it's purposeful.

Though yeah there's also a separate issue where Netflix subtitles are only like 95% reliable and sometimes just skip whole lines because of lag or whatever.

XboxPants fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Apr 12, 2015

BrianWilly
Apr 24, 2007

There is no homosexual terrorist Johnny Silverhand
Goonish musing on language: D'Onofrio was actually tolerable at Chinese inflections even if he spoke it like someone was repeatedly punching him in the balls between every word and, look, "tolerable" is honestly pretty high praise considering the way folks usually do it.

Hilariously, the way that Madame Gao spoke -- like, the vernacular and word choice -- was super loving prosey and overwrought like she just stepped out from a warring states period poetry slam...which, considering the character's suspected origins, is probably rather fitting. If any of Fisk's motley crew were actually fluent in modern conversational Chinese they'd probably think she was even weirder than they already do. :xd:

Zaggitz
Jun 18, 2009

My urges are becoming...

UNCONTROLLABLE

BrianWilly posted:

Goonish musing on language: D'Onofrio was actually tolerable at Chinese inflections even if he spoke it like someone was repeatedly punching him in the balls

To be fair that's how he talks in english too.

Chickenwalker
Apr 21, 2011

by FactsAreUseless

Optimus Subprime posted:

Also his mandarin is terrible, but not too many people would get that.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who caught this because ha ha ha holy poo poo is it awful. Like bad even by the normal standards of white people pretending they speak Chinese on TV. How did the actress playing Madame Gao not tell him how bad it was?

Rurutia
Jun 11, 2009
My cousin and I actually thought the opposite. He was actually understandable, whereas most of the time when non speakers try to speak Chinese it is impossible for me to understand.

I don't think Madame Gao's actress is a native mandarin speaker. She came off as of Hong Kong origin from her speech patterns.

Episode 11
Wesley's death is utter bullshit and I can't handle Karen Page. It made no sense whatsoever for a person of his stature in that situation to be that careless.

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011
It's about time for my once per decade ban for being a consistently terrible poster.
She's not Chinese at all in the story, and he's basically a giant toddler that could rip people in half. Who the gently caress is going to give them poo poo about how they talk?

Wolpertinger
Feb 16, 2011

Rurutia posted:

My cousin and I actually thought the opposite. He was actually understandable, whereas most of the time when non speakers try to speak Chinese it is impossible for me to understand.

I don't think Madame Gao's actress is a native mandarin speaker. She came off as of Hong Kong origin from her speech patterns.

Episode 11
Wesley's death is utter bullshit and I can't handle Karen Page. It made no sense whatsoever for a person of his stature in that situation to be that careless.

I think he just underestimated her balls - not only to grab the gun, but shoot it.

PaganGoatPants
Jan 18, 2012

TODAY WAS THE SPECIAL SALE DAY!
Grimey Drawer

Wolpertinger posted:

I think he just underestimated her balls - not only to grab the gun, but shoot it.

Yeah, after the first bullet he looked like :stare: Then she shot him 5 more times. I actually didn't see that coming. I thought she would just slowly back out after shooting him in the arm.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

Don't you tell me my business again.

Srice posted:

So I am tired of Marvel movies what with how incredibly safe they play everything, how the third act is always the same and they manage to all blend into a generic style and etc etc. And I'm also tired of origin stories. I mean, hearing that this serves as an origin story for both Daredevil and the Kingpin already makes me wary about it!.

So instead of just jumping into Daredevil, I'm just wondering if anyone is in the same boat as me and if so, did you enjoy it or not?

The origin story is mostly told via flashbacks that explain why Matt is doing whatever it is he's doing at that moment in the story. Truthfully, they needed the origin and it's not at all heavy handed or boring and doesn't get in the way at all. DD isn't a household name like Batman, Spiderman or Superman where everyone already knows what's up and you could arguably skip it, and the way they handle it to sprinkle it in throughout the episodes which works really well.

Rurutia
Jun 11, 2009

Boogaleeboo posted:

She's not Chinese at all in the story, and he's basically a giant toddler that could rip people in half. Who the gently caress is going to give them poo poo about how they talk?

?? Pretty sure she is Chinese in the show.

mikeraskol
May 3, 2006

Oh yeah. I was killing you.

Rurutia posted:

?? Pretty sure she is Chinese in the show.

She specifically isn't. 1x13 spoiler - She tells Owlsley that she's going home. He says, "to China?" She says "somewhere much further away than that."

Desperado Bones
Aug 29, 2009

Cute, adorable, and creepy at the same time!


BrianWilly posted:

Goonish musing on language: D'Onofrio

Oh drat, I wish you were in my shoes and cringe every time they try to speak Spanish, I always give a pass on the characters that are American, but when you have characters that are supposed to be naturally fluent I go extremely :spergin: but then I just pretend they are like second or third, or whatever generation and they can't speak the language at all. And by the way, Cárdenas was being wrong pronounced the whole time.
*spoilers tags just in case.

I wonder if the Russian was well spoken, or had the same flaws.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

Don't you tell me my business again.

IShallRiseAgain posted:

Watch this scene, its one of the best fight scenes in the history of cinema.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmWo7m3zhZs

That was pretty bad rear end but I actually liked the DD episode 2 fight better. Is my Taxi Driver comparison out of bounds? I havn't seen anyone else compare it to that.

VDay
Jul 2, 2003

I'm Pacman Jones!

mikeraskol posted:

She specifically isn't. 1x13 spoiler - She tells Owlsley that she's going home. He says, "to China?" She says "somewhere much further away than that."

I took that to mean that she's just being cryptic and is actually talking about some secret shady ninja place, not that she's just from Australia or something.

Desperado Bones posted:

I wonder if the Russian was well spoken, or had the same flaws.

It was good for the most part, because they got actual Russian speakers. The big exception was Vladimir's brother who was obviously not a native speaker, but still did a decent job, ie: you could understand what he was saying.

Cool Dad
Jun 15, 2007

It is always Friday night, motherfuckers

1x03 (I think)

I'm surprised with all of the "kingpin's suit" talk, nobody has mentioned Vanessa's description of her previous suitor who showed up in a white suit and an ascot.

"That seems a bit much."

PaganGoatPants
Jan 18, 2012

TODAY WAS THE SPECIAL SALE DAY!
Grimey Drawer

Gilok posted:

1x03 (I think)

I'm surprised with all of the "kingpin's suit" talk, nobody has mentioned Vanessa's description of her previous suitor who showed up in a white suit and an ascot.

"That seems a bit much."


1x05 I think. I laughed.

Dogeatdog
Jun 17, 2005

dj_clawson posted:

Daredevil clearly takes place in an alternate reality Hells' Kitchen.

I know this was a couple pages back, but this made me laugh so hard.

WickedHate
Aug 1, 2013

by Lowtax

VDay posted:

I took that to mean that she's just being cryptic and is actually talking about some secret shady ninja place, not that she's just from Australia or something.

She's from K'un L'un, or...Feng-Tu? I'm not really big on Iron Fist lore, but she's otherworldly and her heroin is called Silver Dragon(and has the Silver Dragon symbol), who's an Iron Fist villian. She might not even be human.

Also, ninjas are Japanese, Leland.

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Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007

BiggerBoat posted:

That was pretty bad rear end but I actually liked the DD episode 2 fight better. Is my Taxi Driver comparison out of bounds? I havn't seen anyone else compare it to that.

Steven DeKnight, the head showrunner, said Taxi Driver was a specific influence on that scene, along with Old Boy and the Raid movies.

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