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thrakkorzog
Nov 16, 2007

old dog child posted:

I want Netflix to make every show. They have got to have more hits than busts at this point.

So I haven't read the comics. Was this an origin story for Fisk or is his arc finished? Will Daredevil use new villains next season? I am just curious because I want to start mindlessly speculating about next season but the series wrapped up pretty neatly so I don't have much to use.


P.S.

I will miss you Ben Urlich. :sigh:

I speculated a few days ago that the Vanessa storyline was vaguely reminiscent of Typhoid Mary, mostly because that's the only character from the comics I can think of who was romantic with Fisk. So I could see Vanessa becoming a more realistic version of Typhoid Mary, where they keep the crazy, but ditch the superpowers.

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Vince MechMahon
Jan 1, 2008



thrakkorzog posted:

I speculated a few days ago that the Vanessa storyline was vaguely reminiscent of Typhoid Mary, mostly because that's the only character from the comics I can think of who was romantic with Fisk. So I could see Vanessa becoming a more realistic version of Typhoid Mary, where they keep the crazy, but ditch the superpowers.

There's another woman that Fisk is romantic with in the comics you're forgetting about. Her name might be familiar though: Vanessa. His wife. For like forty years of stories.

thrakkorzog
Nov 16, 2007

TheJoker138 posted:

There's another woman that Fisk is romantic with in the comics you're forgetting about. Her name might be familiar though: Vanessa. His wife. For like forty years of stories.

OK, my mistake, wasn't really ever a huge Daredevil fan, so I don't recall seeing his wife show up.

Vince MechMahon
Jan 1, 2008



thrakkorzog posted:

OK, my mistake, wasn't really ever a huge Daredevil fan, so I don't recall seeing his wife show up.

She became a pretty major player during parts of Bendis' run, but died at the end of it. She was always around before that in various capacities since '69. In the comics she was less "I find all this crime stuff SUPER HOT" and more of Fisk's concision that he never listened to who hated being the wife of a crime lord.

E: She was also in a few episodes of the 90's Spider-Man cartoon.

Also, she had weird hair.

FirstAidKite
Nov 8, 2009

That's just doctor stranger in drag

Vince MechMahon
Jan 1, 2008



FirstAidKite posted:

That's just doctor stranger in drag

I'm pretty sure the Spider-Man show just used a slightly modified version of the Rogue model from the X-Men animated series for her:

BrianWilly
Apr 24, 2007

There is no homosexual terrorist Johnny Silverhand
I can't state how much I enjoyed Vanessa and Fisk's relationship in this series. Of course nearly everything in this was a pleasant surprise to me but, like, having seen so many comic book things and being so aware of Daredevil things through the years, you still kind of "expect" the stuff that would happen in a Daredevil TV show, what inspiration they can draw from, what the major beats are with each character, so on and so forth. This interpretation of Vanessa Fisk was the one big thing that I didn't see coming and was really impressed by.

I really hope that next season...well, first of all I really hope that there is a next season and that it comes quickly, but I also really hope that Vanessa maybe steps up to take charge of the remnants of Fisk's empire -- with his instructions and confidence while he's in jail -- and continues her path down this slippery slope to become as corrupt as he is. A love story for the ages. :3:

Also: she's Superman's mom from Man of Steel.

NecroMonster posted:

No, it's really only Luke Cage that I worry about. I mean, what themes or ideas are they going to be able to find to really drive it home and make it special?
You don't think there's a veritable trove of themes to mine from, in this day and age, for a story about a bulletproof black man who is wrongfully sent to prison?

NecroMonster
Jan 4, 2009

BrianWilly posted:

You don't think there's a veritable trove of themes to mine from, in this day and age, for a story about a bulletproof black man who is wrongfully sent to prison?

More just worried it'll be drat boring really.

e X
Feb 23, 2013

cool but crude
I think Alias will probably be the weakest one out of the bunch, but that is mostly because I think the source material is pretty weak.

thrakkorzog
Nov 16, 2007

TheJoker138 posted:

She became a pretty major player during parts of Bendis' run, but died at the end of it. She was always around before that in various capacities since '69. In the comics she was less "I find all this crime stuff SUPER HOT" and more of Fisk's concision that he never listened to who hated being the wife of a crime lord.

E: She was also in a few episodes of the 90's Spider-Man cartoon.

Also, she had weird hair.



To be fair, I try to forget about Marvel animated shows. I think it's safe to say that they are not very good.

Edit: Could be worse hair, she could be have Osborne hair.

thrakkorzog fucked around with this message at 10:45 on Apr 13, 2015

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.

Wolpertinger posted:

Honestly, this. This was so much more satisfying than a 2-3 hour movie. I even love the lighthearted silly CGI-heavy marvel stuff too, it's a shame they can never get the TV treatment too - The marvel movies often end up feeling especially shallow even if they are fun, because they have to shove an entire comic book plot, plus oftentimes character origins and introductions, into just 2-3 hours.

Yeah, that really sucks. I can't think of a feature film I've seen in a long time that compares, artistically, to a good dramatic series that follows characters and themes for longer.

It's crazy to me that, because of however it is that differing revenue models for features and on-demand TV work, a single film that costs $200 Million will earn $1 Billion. But that same $200 Million used to create 5 separate series and 60 hours of content, released over 2 years, is somehow a riskier or less profitable model.

Maybe it's the lower revenues of services like Netflix? Or just the event nature of a blockbuster release? I understand when it comes to really CG-heavy features like Avengers; you couldn't make that into a TV series in a cost-effective way, I'm sure. But not every property is like that.

All I mean is, I hope this Netflix experiment is wildly successful and encourages them to trust this format for other properties. Because I can't describe how much better this was than some Daredevil rebooted feature, and it cost WAY less than that would have...in theory 1/5th of the $200 Million Defenders price tag.

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

Just capped off the finale after a 3 day binge. Loved it. Definitely a slow burn to get through, but drat was it good. Stoked for rest of Marvel's Netflix endeavors. Also, I was expecting Rosario Dawson to be in way more episodes... maybe she'll be more prominent in the Luke Cage series?

thrakkorzog
Nov 16, 2007

Xealot posted:

Yeah, that really sucks. I can't think of a feature film I've seen in a long time that compares, artistically, to a good dramatic series that follows characters and themes for longer.

It's crazy to me that, because of however it is that differing revenue models for features and on-demand TV work, a single film that costs $200 Million will earn $1 Billion. But that same $200 Million used to create 5 separate series and 60 hours of content, released over 2 years, is somehow a riskier or less profitable model.

Maybe it's the lower revenues of services like Netflix? Or just the event nature of a blockbuster release? I understand when it comes to really CG-heavy features like Avengers; you couldn't make that into a TV series in a cost-effective way, I'm sure. But not every property is like that.

All I mean is, I hope this Netflix experiment is wildly successful and encourages them to trust this format for other properties. Because I can't describe how much better this was than some Daredevil rebooted feature, and it cost WAY less than that would have...in theory 1/5th of the $200 Million Defenders price tag.

Well Netflix is a bit different then other networks because they actually have raw numbers to back up their decisions. They can actually see how many subscribers watch their shows, and see when people drop out. That's like the golden goose for most networks, usually networks have to pay Nielsen to get a statistical analysis of people's TV watching habits. Netflix has the raw numbers on what people watch, and don't watch.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Xealot posted:

All I mean is, I hope this Netflix experiment is wildly successful and encourages them to trust this format for other properties. Because I can't describe how much better this was than some Daredevil rebooted feature, and it cost WAY less than that would have...in theory 1/5th of the $200 Million Defenders price tag.

I saw someone suggest once that the best way to adapt Spider-Man isn't a movie, but a serialized TV series. And I found that I had to agree. Even though it was just a couple years ago, back then it seemed an impossibility. And it's surely not something happening any time soon.

But... slowly, all the right pieces are moving into place. I can now see a potential future where there's a high-quality serialized live-action Spider-Man TV series that's integrated into a larger Marvel TV & movie universe.

God drat would that be cool.

Zythrst
May 31, 2011

Time to join a revolution son, its going to be yooge!

XboxPants posted:

I saw someone suggest once that the best way to adapt Spider-Man isn't a movie, but a serialized TV series. And I found that I had to agree. Even though it was just a couple years ago, back then it seemed an impossibility. And it's surely not something happening any time soon.

But... slowly, all the right pieces are moving into place. I can now see a potential future where there's a high-quality serialized live-action Spider-Man TV series that's integrated into a larger Marvel TV & movie universe.

God drat would that be cool.

I'm 100% sure they'll just put him in movies instead.

Wolpertinger
Feb 16, 2011

XboxPants posted:

I saw someone suggest once that the best way to adapt Spider-Man isn't a movie, but a serialized TV series. And I found that I had to agree. Even though it was just a couple years ago, back then it seemed an impossibility. And it's surely not something happening any time soon.

But... slowly, all the right pieces are moving into place. I can now see a potential future where there's a high-quality serialized live-action Spider-Man TV series that's integrated into a larger Marvel TV & movie universe.

God drat would that be cool.

Having just a ton of Marvel shows on Netflix across the whole breadth of the franchise with long running series for years would pretty much be beyond my wildest dreams. After all, it fits the comic book format better than a movie.

3 DONG HORSE
May 22, 2008

I'd like to thank Satan for everything he's done for this organization

dj_clawson posted:

He's in jail. Not dead. That never slowed Kingpin down.

TheJoker138 posted:

Kingpin is a guy who's always there, like Lex Luthor for Superman. He'll buy his way out of jail and go right back to doing what he always does. The other things set up that could be for season 2 are the mention of a "greek girl" in college, which is Elektra. Matt saying it didn't work out is the understatement of all time. If she's in, then we'll be seeing more of Stick and The Hand (Nobu's ninja group) and probably also Bullseye.

Drifter posted:

Kingpin is basically crimegod of New York. He SHOULD be back at some point bigger and badder, more devious and stronger than ever.

Thanks! I am glad that this is the case. I loved the actor.

thrakkorzog posted:

I speculated a few days ago that the Vanessa storyline was vaguely reminiscent of Typhoid Mary, mostly because that's the only character from the comics I can think of who was romantic with Fisk. So I could see Vanessa becoming a more realistic version of Typhoid Mary, where they keep the crazy, but ditch the superpowers.
I don't know who Typhoid Mary is, but I like the idea if that hero is similar to the historical chick.


Wolpertinger posted:

Honestly, this. This was so much more satisfying than a 2-3 hour movie. I even love the lighthearted silly CGI-heavy marvel stuff too, it's a shame they can never get the TV treatment too - The marvel movies often end up feeling especially shallow even if they are fun, because they have to shove an entire comic book plot, plus oftentimes character origins and introductions, into just 2-3 hours.

Sadly, everything to do with the movie characters are so expensive that even having a cameo for any of them outside of Fury was out of the question, even for Agents of SHIELD which was tied closely to the plot of several of the movies, and tv characters can't be used in the movies because they don't want to make any of the TV shows required watching, so it seems like there will always be this sort of awkward barrier between tv stuff and movie stuff. Even though most of the Avengers stuff showing up in Daredevil would have been pretty silly at this point, considering how many movies they plan on making in the future, having all characters from all the movies being no-shows in the TV shows and vice versa seems like it could become unpleasantly restrictive. Coulson being alive and the director of SHIELD, but also having been confirmed as never speaking to any of the Avengers again for any of the many future MCU movies, many of which will no doubt involve the new SHIELD, is sort of an example of this.

Essentially I just think everything would be way more fun if it could get the TV series/miniseries treatment instead. But I guess there just isn't as much money there.

I agree completely. As much as I love the movies, Daredevil, Agent Carter, and increasingly SHIELD give me much more satisfaction. Sure, the spectacle isn't as grand but everything else is better. It's amazing how much I can care about a bunch of loving comic book characters.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Zythrst posted:

I'm 100% sure they'll just put him in movies instead.

Well yeah, they're already talking about the new Spider-Man joint-studio movie. That's the plan for now. But, 10 years from now? If they keep putting out hits as good as Daredevil, if these shows catch fire like Game of Thrones but with an added Marvel franchise boost? And now that Marvel actually has the legal ability to do it? It's a super longshot, but it's enough that I'm now willing to entertain the possibility.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

ChickenMedium posted:

I hope someday superhero show/movie writers will realize that finding out that your best friend has a secret life as a superpowered superhero is a completely awesome thing to happen and no one should get lovely about it.

Arrow did that. When Oliver's hand was forced and he finally told Thea he was the Arrow (after agonizing about it for three loving years because CW milks angst), her response was "wow, I can understand why you'd keep that a secret."

e X
Feb 23, 2013

cool but crude
Honestly, I thought Foggy's anger was competently understandable, because, unlike other shows, they actually explained why he had such a problem with Matt being a vigilant.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.

XboxPants posted:

I saw someone suggest once that the best way to adapt Spider-Man isn't a movie, but a serialized TV series.

And it'd be goddamn awesome, definitely. I mean, I agree that Marvel probably won't do that. But it'd be so much better than trying to fit 3 villains into a 2 hour movie, which somehow Sony has tried multiple times now.


Though, I could see Marvel trying something bigger than the Defenders characters eventually. I can't shake the sense that these Netflix series are a test, to see how viable the format is.

Which is exactly what I'm led to believe Blade was about in 1998...a test-case for Marvel (pre-Marvel Studios) to adapt its comic properties into live action features. They used a less high-profile character like Blade before moving on to big guys like X-Men and Spider-Man. Though this may be apocryphal; I don't know how much say Marvel had over what New Line or Columbia or whoever were going to do.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

old dog child posted:

So I haven't read the comics. Was this an origin story for Fisk or is his arc finished? Will Daredevil use new villains next season? I am just curious because I want to start mindlessly speculating about next season but the series wrapped up pretty neatly so I don't have much to use.

This wasn't quite an origin story for Fisk and Murdock (aside from the flashbacks showing their origin), but it was an evolution of both of them, the kind of thing that usually comes in a superhero sequel. Murdock starts out the series as an anonymous samaritan, and through small victories and self realizations climbs into the Daredevil name, standing as a symbol rather than just a shadow and rumor. Fisk is an anonymous evil similarly known only in whispers, his failures are equally small but definite (relatively speaking), and in the end he learns to embrace his role as the antagonist, the Kingpin. His story isn't finished any more than Murdock's is, but whether another season explores that or moves on to other matters, we'll have to wait and see.

BizarroAzrael
Apr 6, 2006

"That must weigh heavily on your soul. Let me purge it for you."
I just realised that I think the N&M team seem to act as a study in shame. It's most obvious in Matt with his Catholicism, feeling it and sharing it, and Karen with her past, Ben and Wesley. But thinking about it, Foggy is pretty much shameless much of the time.

thrakkorzog
Nov 16, 2007

old dog child posted:

I don't know who Typhoid Mary is, but I like the idea if that hero is similar to the historical chick.

She really doesn't have all that much to do with the historical chick.

The comic version of Typhoid Mary is an assassin that works for The Kingpin. She suffers from multiple personality disorder. (Yeah, I know it's a bullshit disorder, but it's a thing in comics.) She has three personalities. There's a Mary, who is actually a nice sweet girl, then there's Typhoid Mary who is kind of a crazy assassin who works for Fisk and can hold her own in a fight against Daredevil. Typhoid Mary is nominally the main personality.

And if someone pisses off Typhoid Mary too much, then she switches over to her third personality, Bloody Mary, who is a whole new level of batshit crazy.

thrakkorzog fucked around with this message at 12:58 on Apr 13, 2015

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK

e X posted:

Honestly, I thought Foggy's anger was competently understandable, because, unlike other shows, they actually explained why he had such a problem with Matt being a vigilant.

Also Matt was kind of lying to him about being blind for years. Yeah, Matt really can not see via the photo receptive cells in his eyes. He can still recognize the world around him in ways pretty close and in some ways better though.

PaganGoatPants
Jan 18, 2012

TODAY WAS THE SPECIAL SALE DAY!
Grimey Drawer

ChickenMedium posted:

I hope someday superhero show/movie writers will realize that finding out that your best friend has a secret life as a superpowered superhero is a completely awesome thing to happen and no one should get lovely about it.

If my best friend of 20 years told me that he has powers and actually could "see" way better than anyone I'd be a little pissed too. He knew every time he lied etc etc. Also the fact that when he's lawyering he's motives weren't 100% true. "We'll take Fisk down with the law!"

I'm just glad they get over it pretty quickly and that he didn't just forgive him completely.


Although when Joe found out Barry was the Flash he took it pretty well. Especially the voice stuff.

PaganGoatPants fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Apr 13, 2015

notthegoatseguy
Sep 6, 2005

Gyges posted:

Also Matt was kind of lying to him about being blind for years. Yeah, Matt really can not see via the photo receptive cells in his eyes. He can still recognize the world around him in ways pretty close and in some ways better though.

Also how Matt goes through multi hour, even several days, where he isn't able to be reached or contacted at all.

Hollismason
Jun 30, 2007

Witchfinder General

I actually really loved the Flashbacks to Foggy and Matt in college and the episode where it's just Matt and Foggy after Foggy finds out. I thought that was more believable. I mean no ones going to be " Okay great you have been lying to me all of our friendship ".

Also, I wanna rewatch the first dinner date again with Fisk and Vanessa, but I'm pretty sure she orders Zuppo? Not sure the same desert his mother gave him.

bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

You’re telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?
^^ Yes he says that is what he would eat with his mother
Finished this last night, and holy poo poo did the change the Urich relationship. That was a twist I did not see coming. I was also wrong about Owl unless he was just faking it, but I do not think Fisk would allow that to hang around.
I also forget did they say why they needed those specific buildings? I have a feeling that its going to be that area has some connection to the Iron Fist.

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

But how does it taste? Yummy!
Dinosaur Gum
I know nothing about the geography of the New York skyline...should Stark/Avengers Tower have been visible at any point? I didn't notice it at all, and I figured they would have jumped at the chance to have it show up in the background.

Hollismason
Jun 30, 2007

Witchfinder General

Well actually if they keep with the normal Iron Fist Danny Rand thing, Danny Rand owns a lot of property in New York city and I'm pretty sure real estate is his main income.

I was and still am upset about the Ben Urich stuff but can see why they did what they did to show that their doing their own thing .

Leland Owsley has a son named Lee ( pretty sure he said his son's name was lee) and he could be the Owl when he comes back to New York.

e X
Feb 23, 2013

cool but crude

jivjov posted:

I know nothing about the geography of the New York skyline...should Stark/Avengers Tower have been visible at any point? I didn't notice it at all, and I figured they would have jumped at the chance to have it show up in the background.

I don't know about the series itself, but you can see it here.

Apoplexy
Mar 9, 2003

by Shine

TheJoker138 posted:

Gau is obviously from K'un L'un, and connected to the Steel Serpent, what with it being the name of her heroin and all. She's probably the Crane Mother.

E: Like Kobu and The Hand, I think her intentions were left intentionally vague, and we'll probably get more on it in Iron Fist and Defenders. I'm pretty sure that The Hand needed those few specific blocks because they're going to build something like Shadowland there.

Just for reference, it was Nobu, not Kobu. And Gao, not that that's too different from Gau in pronunciation to us but I had the subtitles on so I know it. That's all.

zoux
Apr 28, 2006

I really really hope this becomes a multiple season run, I will be super disappointed if this is the last of Charlie Cox Daredevil (outside of Defenders). I'd love to see how these guys do Daredevil and Elektra.

I think this Netflix Marvel thing is going to work out pretty well, guys.

e X
Feb 23, 2013

cool but crude
I'd love to see this series take on Bullseye, since his abilities can be very interesting and I imagine he would be somewhere been his 616 and Max incarnations.

bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

You’re telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?

zoux posted:

I'd love to see how these guys do Daredevil and Elektra.

I think this Netflix Marvel thing is going to work out pretty well, guys.

They already mentioned that is what season 2 will be, and they already dropped a reference to her.

Hollismason
Jun 30, 2007

Witchfinder General

I wouldn't be surprised if in the next month and before AKA Jessica Jones they announce a season 2 . Every body is going nuts over the show and claiming it the best thing since sliced bread so it'd be crazy if they didn't.

They still haven't actually said "we're making Daredevil season 2"

zoux
Apr 28, 2006

e X posted:

I'd love to see this series take on Bullseye, since his abilities can be very interesting and I imagine he would be somewhere been his 616 and Max incarnations.

I just want to see the "But me...I'm magic" scene in live action.

One thing I liked about the series is that they took fresh looks at standard comic book themes. Many pages back someone remarked that the "we're not so different you and I" speech Kingpin gave Matt over the radio was super cliched, and he was right. But how the show elevated itself was by actually making that true. Both men were heavily shaped by their fathers, who they lost at an early age. They both grew up orphans, they both love Hell's Kitchen and NYC. You do get the sense that the main difference is that Fisk doesn't have lines he won't cross, while Matt does. It also goes into the "Why doesn't Batman just kill Joker" question of principles vs. expediency. Rather than just make it a "if we kill him then we're no different from them" thing, they explore why it's bad for a hero to do what is expedient over what is right. I was a big fan of the priest character and I really liked his polluted-fountain metaphor. I though the show did a better job of explaining why heroes have a no-kill rule than I've seen, certainly in live action.

Aphrodite
Jun 27, 2006

Apoplexy posted:

Just for reference, it was Nobu, not Kobu. And Gao, not that that's too different from Gau in pronunciation to us but I had the subtitles on so I know it. That's all.

And also Crane Mother is from Ku'n-Zi, not K'un-L'un.

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mikeraskol
May 3, 2006

Oh yeah. I was killing you.
This is probably going to sound stupid, but when I started watching this show I knew it was going to be good the first time I saw the opening credits. Goddamn I love those.

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