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Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND

Yorkshire Tea posted:

Also, if there's a Mega form for MagnaAngemon, wouldn't he just trivialise everything and job out all the villains? As I recall MagnaAngemon just straight up chumps a Mega in the first series.

Seraphimon already appeared in Hurricane Touchdown! The Golden Digimentals, alongside Tailmon's Mega form Holydramon, with no explanation whatsoever over how they could suddenly go Mega (in fact, it was a surprise for Takeru and Hikari themselves). They proceeded to create the titular Golden Digimentals then...get curbstomped by Cherubimon. They didn't even get one attack in.

In fact, Seraphimon in general might be only second to Leomon in how horribly he gets treated. Apart from the Golden Digimentals there, he's also appeared in Frontier and in V-Tamer, in both cases he got beaten up badly. In the former, he fights Mercuremon, gets his attack reflected and dies accomplishing nothing despite fighting an opponent that should be much weaker. In fact, he ends up doing more as an Egg than he did alive, giving Double Spirit Evolution to Takuya and Koji. In V-Tamer, Lord HolyAngemon evolves into Seraphimon to face Arkadimon...and gets defeated with extreme ease, reverting to HolyAngemon in a series where that just doesn't happen.

On another topic, the last Nade-Nade just came up in the tri website. Maybe it'll say when the series starts!

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Some Numbers
Sep 28, 2006

"LET'S GET DOWN TO WORK!!"
Yeah, in retrospect, Frontier's treatment of Seraphimon is a bit of an early indication of how badly that show treats any character who's not Takuya or Kouji.

ConanThe3rd
Mar 27, 2009

Blaze Dragon posted:

On another topic, the last Nade-Nade just came up in the tri website. Maybe it'll say when the series starts!

I'm open to surprises.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE
Hey, a Digimon thread and a new Digimon season, which hopefully starts sometime this year!

I like both Digimon Adventure and Digimon Adventure 2, and I really love Tamers as being one of the best anime series ever made.

Sadly, it went downhill with Frontier and I didn't even bother to watch Savers. From what I gather reading this thread, that was a mistake?

I think the Digimon franchise has the best music of any anime franchise. Digimon Adventure had Butterfly and Brave Heart, Digimon Adventure 2 had Target, Break Up and Beat Hit, Tamers had the best music of course, with The Biggest Dreamer, EVO, Card Slash, My Tomorrow and One Vision, and even Frontier had With the Will.

Listen to the Digimon Tamers cast singing The Biggest Dreamer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZEBwLs8bSk

I'm really excited about Tri, I hope it works out.

MorningMoon
Dec 29, 2013

He's been tapping into Aunt May's bank account!
Didn't I kill him with a HELICOPTER?
Speaking of Tri, new egg is up at last
http://digimon-adventure.net/

It opened with 200K clicks about 14 hours ago, now it's down to 154K so it shouldn't take too long if stuff isn't added.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND

Torrannor posted:

Hey, a Digimon thread and a new Digimon season, which hopefully starts sometime this year!

I like both Digimon Adventure and Digimon Adventure 2, and I really love Tamers as being one of the best anime series ever made.

Sadly, it went downhill with Frontier and I didn't even bother to watch Savers. From what I gather reading this thread, that was a mistake?

You did. Frontier was awful, but Savers was much, much better. Not Tamers-good, but nothing is that good. It's still second place to me in Digimon anime, and it's very much worth the watch. Xros Wars is...more base-breaking, and I can't call it great but I don't think it was bad. It was okay. Except for Hunters, that was just as bad as Frontier. The Xros Wars manga is much better though, and I fully recommend it.

Some Numbers
Sep 28, 2006

"LET'S GET DOWN TO WORK!!"
I maintain that while Frontier is pretty bad, it's still better than 02.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

Some Numbers posted:

I maintain that while Frontier is pretty bad, it's still better than 02.

They're oddly similar shows. The biggest difference between them is that 02 shoved the HEROES FAIL EVERY GODDAMN EPISODE AND NOTHING CHANGES arc to the middle of the season- Frontier just made it the entire last act.

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.

Burkion posted:

They're oddly similar shows. The biggest difference between them is that 02 shoved the HEROES FAIL EVERY GODDAMN EPISODE AND NOTHING CHANGES arc to the middle of the season- Frontier just made it the entire last act.

Frontier was entirely B-Grade Toku action until the end of Cherubimon, that is when the show should have ended. Or failing that, 2-3 episodes for the Royal Knights and then Lucemon. It's got much better fights than 02. Also, to me, Frontiers cast were pretty likable, while 02's could all die in a fire, except Ken and Iori I guess.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

Onmi posted:

Frontier was entirely B-Grade Toku action until the end of Cherubimon, that is when the show should have ended. Or failing that, 2-3 episodes for the Royal Knights and then Lucemon. It's got much better fights than 02. Also, to me, Frontiers cast were pretty likable, while 02's could all die in a fire, except Ken and Iori I guess.

I fully admit I barely remember ANYTHING about Frontier. I had a very...weird introduction to it. I had thought Digimon got cancelled at the time and then I found it on some weird channel early in the morn', turned it on and holy poo poo Serphimon! And then he got killed WTF and then I lost the show and then I came back to it a little while later and they were fighting two knight people and they just KEPT LOSING and then the Devil shows up after they finally start winning and then he pile drives them through moons and

It was a very weird way to find the show

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.

Burkion posted:

I fully admit I barely remember ANYTHING about Frontier. I had a very...weird introduction to it. I had thought Digimon got cancelled at the time and then I found it on some weird channel early in the morn', turned it on and holy poo poo Serphimon! And then he got killed WTF and then I lost the show and then I came back to it a little while later and they were fighting two knight people and they just KEPT LOSING and then the Devil shows up after they finally start winning and then he pile drives them through moons and

It was a very weird way to find the show

you have no god damned idea how I can relate to this in regards to.... so many show.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND

Some Numbers posted:

I maintain that while Frontier is pretty bad, it's still better than 02.

I disagree. 02 is a trainwreck, but it's an entertaining one, it rarely gets dull. It's badly written, most plots go nowhere, and characters are horribly underused...which are all flaws Frontier also has! But Frontier is horribly dull nearly all the time, making it even worse.

Both have really entertaining villains though, so there's that. The Dark Warriors and LordKnightmon were the greatest points of Frontier for me, and Arukenimon and Mummymon were a wonderful Team Rocket, plus Ken is awesome all the time.

Hitlersaurus Christ
Oct 14, 2005

I thought Xros Hunters was alright for a slice of life digimon show, and was pretty decent for a season that they found out they were making only a few weeks before Xros ended. Discuss how wrong I am

Some Numbers
Sep 28, 2006

"LET'S GET DOWN TO WORK!!"

Blaze Dragon posted:

I disagree. 02 is a trainwreck, but it's an entertaining one, it rarely gets dull. It's badly written, most plots go nowhere, and characters are horribly underused...which are all flaws Frontier also has! But Frontier is horribly dull nearly all the time, making it even worse.

I disagree. I found 02 almost painfully dull from the fall of Chimeramon on. Frontier was at least moderately entertaining up until the fall of Cherubimon.

mikeycp
Nov 24, 2010

I've changed a lot since I started hanging with Sonic, but I can't depend on him forever. I know I can do this by myself! Okay, Eggman! Bring it on!
Also, 02 actively shits on Adventure; Frontier only makes itself look bad.

readingatwork
Jan 8, 2009

Hello Fatty!


Fun Shoe

Hitlersaurus Christ posted:

I thought Xros Hunters was alright for a slice of life digimon show, and was pretty decent for a season that they found out they were making only a few weeks before Xros ended. Discuss how wrong I am

No it was still pretty bad. Xross Wars S1 was a train wreck too but at least it was entertaining about it. Hunters was just... dull and kind of annoying.

MorningMoon
Dec 29, 2013

He's been tapping into Aunt May's bank account!
Didn't I kill him with a HELICOPTER?

Onmi posted:

Frontier was entirely B-Grade Toku action until the end of Cherubimon, that is when the show should have ended. Or failing that, 2-3 episodes for the Royal Knights and then Lucemon. It's got much better fights than 02. Also, to me, Frontiers cast were pretty likable, while 02's could all die in a fire, except Ken and Iori I guess.

This is pretty much my stance. Frontier had some very good character moments and villains all the way through Cherubimon, then a poo poo and overly long arc of the heroes losing and then a decent ending, meanwhile 02 had a mess all over the place with poo poo scattered across and an ending that boiled down to "Oh, poo poo, the main character has no nuances or nothing that makes him interesting... THAT'S WHY HE'S THE BEST PROTAGONIST AND HE BEATS RECYCLED MYOTISMON" 02 had its moments of goodness, but it's still the weakest series for me, bar Hunters which was boring and filler-y until the 6 minutes of badly animated crossover, while Frontier is a series where you can easily point at the big flaws and simply cut them.

ghost sex
May 19, 2013

readingatwork posted:

No it was still pretty bad. Xross Wars S1 was a train wreck too but at least it was entertaining about it. Hunters was just... dull and kind of annoying.

i had high hopes for hunters when the first episode made it look like taiki was taking a back seat and gumdramon acted like manipulative little poo poo

and then i spent 20 episodes waiting for anything to happen

Astro Nut
Feb 22, 2013

Nonsensical Space Powers, Activate! Form of Friendship!

ghost sex posted:

i had high hopes for hunters when the first episode made it look like taiki was taking a back seat and gumdramon acted like manipulative little poo poo

and then i spent 20 episodes waiting for anything to happen

Honestly its even more grating in that regard since it pretty much completely contrasts with the style Xros Wars had. That in itself isn't necessarily bad of course, but the setup Xros Wars had was incredibly easy to work with for story ideas, whilst going opposite to that would require more skill in writing - and Toei can be somewhat rare to deliver. Xros Wars provides several inherent story notes with each location: Arrival, exploration of the locale, recruitment, fighting the bad guys, resolution of who has the code crown. That is easy to spin into 'new' and different material with each story arc - just gotta decide the location's theme, and then fill it with the appropriate digimon, and things follow from there. With Hunters, its got the same scarcely inhabited void from week to week, most of the digimon there have gone nutso, and the digimon themselves are the prize - so there's rarely even the slightest mystery as to how they're found.

But again, that's not necessarily bad if handled properly, and now that I think about it, it was handled properly before.

In Tamers.

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

ドーナツダメ!
So...is it pronounced "Zeros War" or "Cross War"?

Random note: The theatre version of Butterfly is still the best one.

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.

AlternateNu posted:

So...is it pronounced "Zeros War" or "Cross War"?

Random note: The theatre version of Butterfly is still the best one.

Cross War also that was also the version used in the final episode of Adventure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgLjnTgDrBE

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014

obvious pretool

Yorkshire Tea posted:

Yeah, I mean I can understand why they chose those Mega forms, they're just so visually bland. Like if you want Metal Greymon to go melee, fine, just give him a pair of cyborg arms and tail spikes or something.

Also, if there's a Mega form for MagnaAngemon, wouldn't he just trivialise everything and job out all the villains? As I recall MagnaAngemon just straight up chumps a Mega in the first series.

People keep saying that but it's far, far from true.

HolyAngemon doesn't "chump" Piemon at all. Here's how the scene breaks down:















HolyAngemon opens the gate, but all it does is suck up Piemon's minions. It's not until MetalGarurumon and WarGreymon blast him into Heaven's Gate that he's defeated. Angemon's line has what is effectively a status buff against evil digimon like Piemon, so it deleted him. But it didn't even come CLOSE to him being able to do it himself.

Yeah. he knocked Piemon off of something earlier on to get the keychains everyone had been turned into back, but earlier in this same battle, Garudamon blasts him off his feet with Shadow Wing. Are you going to say she "chumped a Mega" too?

Patamon's evolutions are exceptionally strong for what they are, don't get me wrong, but they are far, FAR from as OP as everyone says they are.

mateo360
Mar 20, 2012

TOO MANY PEOPLE MERLOCK!
ONLY ONE DIJON!
I will give you that MagnaAngemon didn't completely win on his own like everyone wants to claim but...

TFRazorsaw posted:

Patamon's evolutions are exceptionally strong for what they are, don't get me wrong, but they are far, FAR from as OP as everyone says they are.

Except you know, Angemon punched a loving HOLE in Devimon. The villain that the other 6 Champions combined were losing against.

mateo360 fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Apr 14, 2015

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014

obvious pretool
1) Angemon has, as I said, a +1 status effect against evil digimon. He's like WarGreymon with dragon digimon.

2) Takeru and his partner were PROPHESIED to defeat Devimon

3) Angemon cast his own hitpoints into that attack, in addition to getting power from the digivices of the six OTHER kids, resulting in his own death

4) I admitted that the line is an exceptional, but NOT overpowered one

so even THAT is an extraordinarily special circumstance. Look at when he fought Okuwamon in 02; he has nowhere NEAR as much success against a giant bug as he did against guys like Vamdemon and Phantomon, which suffer extra from his special effect (and all he could do was temporarily injure the former).

Angemon is special without saying he's the strongest, best digimon ever. He's an example of how to portray a character with unique qualities without making them a broken mess who outshines everyone else completely.

MorningMoon
Dec 29, 2013

He's been tapping into Aunt May's bank account!
Didn't I kill him with a HELICOPTER?
This is now my favorite picture of all time.

readingatwork
Jan 8, 2009

Hello Fatty!


Fun Shoe
Can we talk for a minute about how wonderfully stupid Xross Wars season 1 was?

Me: "No what are you doing!? You don't need to participate in the cooking contest YOU HAVE A loving MONSTER ARMY!!!"

*10 minutes later their cover is blown and they just kill the bad guys to death like they should have in the first place.*

Me: "FFFFFFFUUUUUU"

It's particularly interesting to contrast to season 2, which fixed pretty much everything I hated but then nearly ruined the whole thing by adding tons of casual sexism.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy
Angemon was always held as strong as an Ultimate, though, in the show. He was the ONLY one who could hurt Myotismon one on one, and his attack even vaporized another Ultimate level Digimon that barely grazed him in the process.

Then combine that with the amount of abuse Angemon could take compared to other Champions, he was clearly a stand out.


MagnaAngemon was also clearly more powerful than Piedmon because of the sword clash. Earlier we saw Piedmon very easily overpower just about all of the other Digimon, including Angewomon, but MagnaAngemon easily destroyed his attacks and physically threw him to the side. It's not a stretch to imagine MangaAngemon could have kicked Piedmon into the hole if season 1 wasn't more about teamwork than any other season.

Even Season 2 acknowledged that MagnaAngemon was really goddamn strong- the only time he shows up and does anything, he is fighting Black War Greymon, and is WINNING against him until BWG cheats and destroys his power source. Later on we see Black War Greymon fight regular War Greymon and Imperialdramon Fighter Mode, and that just turns out to be a draw.Otherwise he does nothing if he shows up- even against Malo Mytoismon, the dude did NOTHING while everyone else threw an attack out, because he would have defeated MaloMyotismon on his own.

ConanThe3rd
Mar 27, 2009

readingatwork posted:

Can we talk for a minute about how wonderfully stupid Xross Wars season 1 was?

The Love Love Dance will forever be up there in the pantheon of "poo poo aired on National TV for a child audience that is both japanese and animated that will ruin your parents' perspective on your chosen preference in media."

It was also loving bizarre.
Like, even by Japanese Standards.

Covok
May 27, 2013

Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

ConanThe3rd posted:

The Love Love Dance will forever be up there in the pantheon of "poo poo aired on National TV for a child audience that is both japanese and animated that will ruin your parents' perspective on your chosen preference in media."

It was also loving bizarre.
Like, even by Japanese Standards.

I didn't watch anything past season 5 and, thanks to this post, I just saw this.

What...what is the context?

Some Numbers
Sep 28, 2006

"LET'S GET DOWN TO WORK!!"

Covok posted:

I didn't watch anything past season 5 and, thanks to this post, I just saw this.

What...what is the context?

I'm not sure I want to know the context.

ConanThe3rd
Mar 27, 2009

Covok posted:

I didn't watch anything past season 5 and, thanks to this post, I just saw this.

What...what is the context?
In not too many words, the scoobies (two on stage) get press ganged into doing some stupid stuff to advance the plot (the dancing to awaken some guardian digimon or some such nonsense) whilst Taiki does important talking to Not-Kaiba stuff in response to Not-Kaiba being force-fed a lot of crow in episodes previous.

Astro Nut
Feb 22, 2013

Nonsensical Space Powers, Activate! Form of Friendship!

Covok posted:

I didn't watch anything past season 5 and, thanks to this post, I just saw this.

What...what is the context?

Some Numbers posted:

I'm not sure I want to know the context.

Those rituals to appease local digimon deities are just kooky, y'know?

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014

obvious pretool

quote:

Angemon was always held as strong as an Ultimate, though, in the show. He was the ONLY one who could hurt Myotismon one on one, and his attack even vaporized another Ultimate level Digimon that barely grazed him in the process.

Then combine that with the amount of abuse Angemon could take compared to other Champions, he was clearly a stand out.


MagnaAngemon was also clearly more powerful than Piedmon because of the sword clash. Earlier we saw Piedmon very easily overpower just about all of the other Digimon, including Angewomon, but MagnaAngemon easily destroyed his attacks and physically threw him to the side. It's not a stretch to imagine MangaAngemon could have kicked Piedmon into the hole if season 1 wasn't more about teamwork than any other season.

Even Season 2 acknowledged that MagnaAngemon was really goddamn strong- the only time he shows up and does anything, he is fighting Black War Greymon, and is WINNING against him until BWG cheats and destroys his power source. Later on we see Black War Greymon fight regular War Greymon and Imperialdramon Fighter Mode, and that just turns out to be a draw.Otherwise he does nothing if he shows up- even against Malo Mytoismon, the dude did NOTHING while everyone else threw an attack out, because he would have defeated MaloMyotismon on his own.

Except... Vamdemon and Phantomon are both evil and dark attributed digimon. It's STATED that his attacks are especially effective against them. If he was as strong as an Ultimate/Perfect, he would have been able to stand up to Oukuwamon, and what happened there?

He got his face shoved in after ONE attack.

As for BlackWarGreymon, that is true, and that's where the evolution line being "above average" comes in. But BWG was only as strong as WarGreymon, and we can never know how that fight would have ended because we never saw the final result of it. And WarGreymon was consistently shown to be individually weaker than Piemon. In any case, all HolyAngemon did was hit Piemon ONCE - a feat we saw Garudamon do in the same episode - and open the gate. While the Vilemon were being sucked in, Piemon was not being affected at all.

Kurui Reiten
Apr 24, 2010

Basically, Magna Angemon's light-type is super effective against dark-types. Villains, especially in Adventure and 02, were almost exclusively dark-types. That entire line is going to fair very well against them, because it's effectively the equivalent, in Pokemon terms, of Pikachu using Thunderbolt against a Gyarados, which is Water/Flying, and doing 8x damage to it. Meanwhile if Pikachu uses Thunderbolt against an Onyx, nothing loving happens.

Unless some idiot turned on the sprinkler system/plot device.

(You wanna talk OP, Pokemon is so many times worse it's not even funny)

The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

TFRazorsaw posted:

Except... Vamdemon and Phantomon are both evil and dark attributed digimon. It's STATED that his attacks are especially effective against them. If he was as strong as an Ultimate/Perfect, he would have been able to stand up to Oukuwamon, and what happened there?

He got his face shoved in after ONE attack.

As for BlackWarGreymon, that is true, and that's where the evolution line being "above average" comes in. But BWG was only as strong as WarGreymon, and we can never know how that fight would have ended because we never saw the final result of it. And WarGreymon was consistently shown to be individually weaker than Piemon. In any case, all HolyAngemon did was hit Piemon ONCE - a feat we saw Garudamon do in the same episode - and open the gate. While the Vilemon were being sucked in, Piemon was not being affected at all.

I dunno man, Okuwamon's a Kuwagamon derivative. And we all know Kuwagamon's 3 for 3 against the protags.

Covok
May 27, 2013

Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

The Bee posted:

I dunno man, Okuwamon's a Kuwagamon derivative. And we all know Kuwagamon's 3 for 3 against the protags.

Kuwagamon is secretly the strongest digimon in the whole digital world as it has built an immunity against attacks by protagonists. Pixiemons, on the other hand, are its one bane.

Nahxela
Oct 11, 2008

Execution
Does that mean Savers' protagonists are the strongest? Because Gotsumon brought a bunch of Okuwamon into the real world and they got beat up (I think all by Masaru and Agumon/RizeGreymon?)

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

Nahxela posted:

Does that mean Savers' protagonists are the strongest? Because Gotsumon brought a bunch of Okuwamon into the real world and they got beat up (I think all by Masaru and Agumon/RizeGreymon?)
yes, but not because of whatever the gently caress you just said, but because the main dude punches things that are on fire

Nahxela
Oct 11, 2008

Execution
He can't punch Petitmeramon.

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The REAL Goobusters
Apr 25, 2008

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