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gigawhite posted:I want a supercut of all the times someone is just standing in an alley doing nothing and daredevil runs into frame and starts beating him Yeah, the acting in this show is pretty great, and the dialogue is great, and the thematic elements of the stories are great, but the weakest part is definitely that Matt's plan is literally just beat the poo poo out of people until the crime is gone. I was hoping there would be some decent legal drama element to the show, and there really wasn't.
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Apr 16, 2015 02:47
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Snak posted:Yeah, the acting in this show is pretty great, and the dialogue is great, and the thematic elements of the stories are great, but the weakest part is definitely that Matt's plan is literally just beat the poo poo out of people until the crime is gone. I was hoping there would be some decent legal drama element to the show, and there really wasn't. A vigilante wouldn't need to be a vigilante if there were better ways to put the bad guy away. The whole point of the show was that Kingpin was/is untouchable legally, and Matt as Daredevil was slowly poking through his defenses one hosed up, overheard rumor at a time.
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Apr 16, 2015 02:49
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Steve Yun posted:Where is this? I tried digging through goldmines and couldn't find a blind ask/tell I went looking for it myself earlier, and while I'm only a few pages in there's some cool stuff there.
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Apr 16, 2015 02:50
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Drifter posted:A vigilante wouldn't need to be a vigilante if there were better ways to put the bad guy away. Yeah, but it's the same kinda thing as Batman: most of the people he's shown beating up are just street level guys or people who Kingpin has threatened to torture and kill their entire families if they don't work for him. And I'm tired of shows where torture is shown as justified and effective. And here it's not just occasionally. Like "this guy's really bad, and we really need to know what he knows" it's like "welp i need to know some stuff, lets just start beating people until I learn it all." And it works. every. time. edit: and obviously most of the people he was really bad to were pretty bad guys, into human smuggling and sex slavery and stuff. I don't really have a problem with someone hurting and killing them as punishment, I just don't like when it's portrayed as effective at getting information, because EVERY SHOW DOES IT. Snak fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Apr 16, 2015 |
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Apr 16, 2015 02:57
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To be fair, he got most of the good stuff either because the person knew Fisk was gonna kill them anyway (The dirty cop, Vladimir) or by tailing and listening, which is a legit investigative technique. The only things torturing people really got him were Fisk's name, and the location of that kid the Russian's kidnapped. Well, and the warehouse where they took the junkie that killed Elena, but that was a trap, so beating that out of him was dumb.
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Apr 16, 2015 03:05
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Snak posted:Yeah, but it's the same kinda thing as Batman: most of the people he's shown beating up are just street level guys or people who Kingpin has threatened to torture and kill their entire families if they don't work for him. And I'm tired of shows where torture is shown as justified and effective. And here it's not just occasionally. Like "this guy's really bad, and we really need to know what he knows" it's like "welp i need to know some stuff, lets just start beating people until I learn it all." And it works. every. time. So, in this interpretation, how did Matt end up in the dumpster in the beginning of the second episode? Is this some kind of oppositional reading thing, where you ignore the parts that don't support your interpretation?
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Apr 16, 2015 03:11
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I thought Wesley was the one who had poisoned people, but he wasn't. I was surprised when they killed him, though. Didn't expect that, and really didn't expect them to kill Ben. Established major minor character, damnit!  Also, on a personal level, I would have preferred it if Netflix did one episode a week. I like having everyone seeing an episode at the same time, and being able to talk about it, and speculate. But, that's not the Netflix way. I'll just have to adapt.
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Apr 16, 2015 03:16
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I really enjoyed this series a lot more than I expected to, but I really wish they had kept Wesley around and killed off Fisk instead. I know that's not how this works but I found him a lot more charming and intimidating than VANESSA!!!! 
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Apr 16, 2015 03:16
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XboxPants posted:So, in this interpretation, how did Matt end up in the dumpster in the beginning of the second episode? Is this some kind of oppositional reading thing, where you ignore the parts that don't support your interpretation? I'm sorry, I don't know what you're talking about. He ended up there because he was lead into a trap. But every time he needs information, beating still works. Maybe only offscreen beatings provide false information? Who knows! But can you think of a torture scene where he doesn't get correct information by beating someone senseless, stabbing them in the eye socket, and threatening to throw them off buildings? Even if you're right, and I'm wrong about it working every time, my point still stands that this show can clearly be put in the "pro-torture" category.
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Apr 16, 2015 03:21
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Snak posted:I'm sorry, I don't know what you're talking about. He ended up there because he was lead into a trap. But every time he needs information, beating still works. Maybe only offscreen beatings provide false information? Who knows! But can you think of a torture scene where he doesn't get correct information by beating someone senseless, stabbing them in the eye socket, and threatening to throw them off buildings? Even if you're right, and I'm wrong about it working every time, my point still stands that this show can clearly be put in the "pro-torture" category. Sure that's fair. But it's not as cut and dry as you made it look if he almost dies because some of his tortured information was bad and led him into a trap. Even if they don't show him getting bad info, which you're right, that's a meaningful distinction, they still spend a lot of effort showing how hosed up he got because he got bad intel from torture. Actually, how did he get led into fighting the Ninja? That was a trap too. What was he even looking for, I don't remember. Fisk, maybe? Also, I don't believe Vladimir gave up any intel because of torture. That's a case where he needed info, and beatings didn't work. XboxPants fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Apr 16, 2015 |
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Apr 16, 2015 03:24
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Kheldarn posted:Also, on a personal level, I would have preferred it if Netflix did one episode a week. I like having everyone seeing an episode at the same time, and being able to talk about it, and speculate. But, that's not the Netflix way. I'll just have to adapt. Just think of it like we all watched an extra long movie, not a TV show.
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Apr 16, 2015 03:35
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gigawhite posted:I really enjoyed this series a lot more than I expected to, but I really wish they had kept Wesley around and killed off Fisk instead. I know that's not how this works but I found him a lot more charming and intimidating than VANESSA!!!! The post about him being Fisk's smithers was pretty much true.
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Apr 16, 2015 03:37
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I'm with Snak on this one. It was pretty cool in episode 2 when Claire tells him where to stick the knife, just because it defies your expectation for the character and what is typical of these shows, but by episode 8 so many scenes have ended with Matt saying something like "guess I'm going to have to pay him a visit" and then the rejoinder scene involving him catching someone in an alley and kick punching them and threatening to break all of their bones and follow them around and stuff
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Apr 16, 2015 03:38
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Kheldarn posted:Also, on a personal level, I would have preferred it if Netflix did one episode a week. I like having everyone seeing an episode at the same time, and being able to talk about it, and speculate. But, that's not the Netflix way. I'll just have to adapt. For me, I feel that the Netflix method of just dumping the whole season at once really ruins any kind of suspense. Can't really have an effective cliffhanger when you can just start up the next episode right away.
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Apr 16, 2015 03:41
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Kheldarn posted:I thought Wesley was the one who had poisoned people, but he wasn't. I was surprised when they killed him, though. Didn't expect that, and really didn't expect them to kill Ben. Established major minor character, damnit! It'd be nice if they experimented with it on one show.
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Apr 16, 2015 03:50
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PaganGoatPants posted:It'd be nice if they experimented with it on one show. Just not one I want to watch.
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Apr 16, 2015 03:57
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I know they were only releasing one episode of The Mike Tyson Mysteries per week on Netflix for a while.
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Apr 16, 2015 04:00
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PaganGoatPants posted:It'd be nice if they experimented with it on one show. They did, with Better Call Saul! And Agent Carter? Not sure about that one
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Apr 16, 2015 04:13
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gigawhite posted:I'm with Snak on this one. It was pretty cool in episode 2 when Claire tells him where to stick the knife, just because it defies your expectation for the character and what is typical of these shows, but by episode 8 so many scenes have ended with Matt saying something like "guess I'm going to have to pay him a visit" and then the rejoinder scene involving him catching someone in an alley and kick punching them and threatening to break all of their bones and follow them around and stuff Some good courtroom justice in the show would help counteract it. Part of the concept of Daredevil is, that as Lawyer he literally tries to use legal means, and if he can't he uses violence. We see him save Karen, but not really through being a great lawyer. Mostly it seemed like the law was ultimately useless and violence was always the answer.
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Apr 16, 2015 04:14
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Snak posted:Some good courtroom justice in the show would help counteract it. Part of the concept of Daredevil is, that as Lawyer he literally tries to use legal means, and if he can't he uses violence. We see him save Karen, but not really through being a great lawyer. Mostly it seemed like the law was ultimately useless and violence was always the answer.  ) we can see Matt have more workable legal efforts.I mean, the end of S1 was basically the city purging itself of all the bought off people and government employees and politicians..
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Apr 16, 2015 04:22
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Drifter posted:I think another issue with going the legal route during season 1 is that theoretically Kingpin was paying off lots of people. Hopefully in S2 (right RIGHT?!?! Yeah, really liked all the things they did, so I'm glad they didn't bog it down with courtroom scenes just to have them. I also think that Foggy knowing is a good catalyst for him making Matt exhaust their legal options first. I'm also assuming that Karen may go on trial for murder at some point, and they will have to defend her (again). Regardless, this season was really good. Puts Arrow to shame. This is how you do gritty comic book. With good characters who act like human beings.
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Apr 16, 2015 04:36
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Snak posted:yeah, but Wilson's "tastes" are that he likes expensive and fine things because he considers them proof of his success. He doesn't actually know how to dress for success. But Vanessa does. 
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Apr 16, 2015 04:52
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Vanessa's nudging him toward his iconic white Kingpin suit.
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Apr 16, 2015 04:53
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only realistic thing about the show was the scene in which the black guy hits on the plus size white girl.
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Apr 16, 2015 04:53
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Steve Yun posted:I'm not sure what you mean by this. Wilson was "dressed for success" before he met Vanessa and it didn't change after they met. The point of their scene picking out suits was that the virtuous Vanessa, dressed in white, was getting the villain Fisk to ditch his usual Darth Vader blacks for a gray suit that represented his softening temperament. It's really basic color theory. I mean, it can be both, right? Like, was he still going to do the public appearance if he wasn't with Vanessa? Because if he was, he would have worn his darth vader black and dad's cufflinks. It's not like he's a bad dresser, but he dresses like the man he wants to be, not in the best way. At the beginning of the episode, we see him dress himself. He wears the same thing he always does, and he looks in the mirror and sees himself as the bloody little boy. When Vanessa dresses him, he looks in the mirror and sees himself, ready to go own that public appearance.
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Apr 16, 2015 05:00
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Steve Yun posted:The point of their scene picking out suits was that the virtuous Vanessa, dressed in white, was getting the villain Fisk to ditch his usual Darth Vader blacks for a gray suit that represented his softening temperament. It's really basic color theory. I don't think it's about virtue or softness, I think it's about being seen and about personal confidence. Vanessa doesn't seem to give a poo poo about how "virtuous" Wilson is; she merely wants him to "step out into the light." He doesn't stop doing criminal poo poo when he steps out, either...if anything, he becomes more ambitious. In that sense, Wilson wearing lighter colors actually communicates how removed he is from virtue, because it speaks to his greater acceptance of who he is: the Kingpin. The black suits earlier on are him at his most reserved, his most uncomfortable and most shy, but also his most conflicted about his purpose. He's not Darth Vader, he's a sad, quiet introvert who wants to blend into shadow. By the end of the season, he's given up on his fantasy of altruism and accepts his role as a violent criminal. And it's not coincidental he's also wearing a huge, billowy white shirt in his cell. The brighter color is him being louder, embracing his size and his power, which also happens to suggest he's embraced villainy.
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Apr 16, 2015 05:20
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Xealot posted:
It's a good point about embracing his size. His childhood insecurities seem to have stuck around and we know his dad called him fat. It's possible that he wears black in no small part because it is slimming. A lot of modern shows and movies tend to have characters with superhuman planning/plotting/scheming abilities. I'm really glad they didn't do Kingpin as a mastermind who's always one step ahead. Him being a human with his own fears and hopes and dreams who is just manages to succeed because he's a loving badass is some much more interesting, especially as an adversary to Matt Murdock. Where Matt struggles with the "devil" inside him, Wilson struggles with the traumatized little boy he still is. I couldn't believe the one-two punch of finding out that after he murdered his dad, he immediately watched his mom saw apart his dad's body so they could put it in a bunch of different trash bags he could help dispose of. I think I will always have sympathy for this version of the character, because even though he's a horrible murderer, just look at what he learned about life and death as a kid. His dad teaches him to hurt the people who hurt him, he self-actualizes by murdering his dad, and then his mom teaches him that things are only morally wrong if you get caught.
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Apr 16, 2015 05:39
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Well, two episodes in and this is easily the best Marvel related thing. That one take fight scene, holy moly.
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Apr 16, 2015 05:43
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I know it's a year off, but I would like to nominate the following for the season 2 thread title: Daredevil: You run around dressed like a moron, beating people up!
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Apr 16, 2015 05:46
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New post-release 25 minute video interview with DeKnight about season 1: http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/04...1c9657c0b000055
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Apr 16, 2015 05:48
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Xealot posted:I don't think it's about virtue or softness, I think it's about being seen and about personal confidence. Vanessa doesn't seem to give a poo poo about how "virtuous" Wilson is; she merely wants him to "step out into the light." He doesn't stop doing criminal poo poo when he steps out, either...if anything, he becomes more ambitious. I like this a lot. I thought his Good Samaritan speech was kinda dumb at first but it's better now after reading your interpretation. It's also neat that as Wilson the crime boss wears lighter colors against the typical criminal tradition, conversely, Daredevil is embracing the "Devil of Hell's Kitchen" identity that originally bothered him as a Catholic.
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Apr 16, 2015 06:20
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Steve Yun posted:I like this a lot. Man, I JUST realized the significance of the priest explaining how, as a student, he thought the devil didn't exist and was just an invention of the church to get people to believe in G-d. Otherwise I didn't care much for that character. He didn't add a lot for all the screen time he was given.
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Apr 16, 2015 06:23
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Normally we'd be hashing this kind of stuff out over several months but here we are cramming through all the symbolism and meaning of an entire season in less than a week
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Apr 16, 2015 06:31
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jivjov posted:For me, I feel that the Netflix method of just dumping the whole season at once really ruins any kind of suspense. Can't really have an effective cliffhanger when you can just start up the next episode right away. The whole point is that you DON'T have to artificially produce cliffhangers or rely on 'monster of the week' guff in order to get people to watch the next episode. Instead you can keep to the important stuff. I much, much prefer it this way.
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Apr 16, 2015 06:47
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dj_clawson posted:Man, I JUST realized the significance of the priest explaining how, as a student, he thought the devil didn't exist and was just an invention of the church to get people to believe in G-d. Otherwise I didn't care much for that character. He didn't add a lot for all the screen time he was given. I liked the priest. I figure they could have easily been a lot dumber about Matt's Catholicism, in fact I was a little worried when he goes to confession in the first episode that it was going to be a few ham-handed "Forgive me Father for I have sinned... not gonna stop what I'm doing tho" moments. Instead they had the priest be a genuine source of moral guidance and counsel for Matt, especially when he didn't have anyone else he could talk to about what was weighing him down. Not the most imaginative role, but they executed it well. In fact I think a lot of what this show does is play well-trod plot elements straight but in a competent enough way that it's still engaging.
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Apr 16, 2015 06:54
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edit:EgoEgress posted:In fact I think a lot of what this show does is play well-trod plot elements straight but in a competent enough way that it's still engaging. Lately that's my favorite kind of story. Sorvah posted:The whole point is that you DON'T have to artificially produce cliffhangers or rely on 'monster of the week' guff in order to get people to watch the next episode. You could still totally have cliffhangers; it's just that with this method, a "series" is reframed from 13 smaller individual stories to one very long one. It's taking serialization to its most extreme point. So, since it's only one long story instead of 13 short ones, and cliffhangers by definition can only happen at the end of a story, it means that your cliffhanger has to happen at the end of the season. But it could still happen. In some ways it's almost as if it's just a a single 13 hour episode.
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Apr 16, 2015 06:56
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I haven't finished it yet but while thus far it it almost feels like Fisk was literally an adult virgin fueled by rage of not getting any. He has to get brains cleaned out of his car because someone cockblocked him on a date that was going well. The moment he gets laid, she already has him changing things, he goes from "no one can say my name" to press conference in one night. Perhaps I'm reading too much into that but it made me laugh at the time, like he had the most rapid and acute case of being pussy whipped ever. The whole Full Metal Jacket connection probably played a factor.
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Apr 16, 2015 07:04
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The worst part of this show for me is that they had to actually go and call him Daredevil at the end. "Devil of Hell's Kitchen" is a much cooler name and just casually referring to him as 'Devil would have been enough like they do with Arrow not actually being called Green Arrow. I loved how despite being in the same shared universe and happening after Avengers, nothing other than Daredevil was super powered. Nobody had goofy code names, they never even called Fisk the Kingpin that I recall. When he fought and got his rear end kicked by the ninja it was all completely in line with everything else because he wasn't some Hand super ninja, he was just another well trained fighter. Probably a better fighter other than his inability to realize he was covered in flammable liquid. Great season though. D'Onofrio just dominates the show. His vocal pattern is just fantastic, it's like he ends every sentence filled with rage bubbling over just a little bit. He spits out the words with such contempt for things, even when he's speaking Chinese. It's great and totally helps sell the character and his guy who's just barely in control of his emotions. I loved that his relationship with Vanessa was so straightforward. She didn't make him a worse person, or become a villain herself. Actually one of the things I liked was that Fisk starts becoming more visible and wanting to be the face of actual change and that's what causes his cohorts to turn on him. It's a great twist on the usual badguy route of becoming so evil nobody can trust you that they have to betray you before you betray them. Worth noting that I live in Taiwan and watched the first episode with a local girl who laughed her rear end off at the woman who played Gao's accent. I'm not really sure why she found it so funny because the actress is from Hong Kong but my friend thought she spoke Chinese like a Japanese person.
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Apr 16, 2015 07:09
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Light Gun Man posted:I haven't finished it yet but while thus far it it almost feels like Fisk was literally an adult virgin fueled by rage of not getting any. He has to get brains cleaned out of his car because someone cockblocked him on a date that was going well. The moment he gets laid, she already has him changing things, he goes from "no one can say my name" to press conference in one night. Perhaps I'm reading too much into that but it made me laugh at the time, like he had the most rapid and acute case of being pussy whipped ever. The whole Full Metal Jacket connection probably played a factor. In the end, Fisk was not a very good criminal mastermind. He couldn't hold his empire together and he didn't even have it very long. Daredevil was part of the problem, but there were also just some gently caress-ups along the way. Which was nice, actually. Fisk and Murdoch were both starting out and they both made a lot of mistakes. That was a running theme of the season.
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Apr 16, 2015 07:09
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PaybackJack posted:The worst part of this show for me is that they had to actually go and call him Daredevil at the end. "Devil of Hell's Kitchen" is a much cooler name and just casually referring to him as 'Devil would have been enough like they do with Arrow not actually being called Green Arrow. I loved how despite being in the same shared universe and happening after Avengers, nothing other than Daredevil was super powered. Nobody had goofy code names, they never even called Fisk the Kingpin that I recall. When he fought and got his rear end kicked by the ninja it was all completely in line with everything else because he wasn't some Hand super ninja, he was just another well trained fighter. Probably a better fighter other than his inability to realize he was covered in flammable liquid. Except Daredevil is his name. They're allowed to use it, so why wouldn't they? That's saying, "Man, I'm so glad nobody's calling Batman Batman, or noone's saying Ironman." Like, That's the character's name.
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Apr 16, 2015 07:17
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