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Aphrodite posted:
Have we been watching the same Marvel stuff? From Loki to Ronan to Red Skull all of the villains have been megalomaniac whiners. And that's fine when you command armies and do magic and all that. Kingpin is street level, he is cold, he's calculating, he's not some lovestruck half-baby who flips out in autistic rage.
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Apr 16, 2015 18:09
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Musluk posted:^^^ dressing up as a bat is in there somewhere chief, can't just say nah that's not a thing ^^^ Good thing that's not what I said then. I never denied it's also a part of what defines him, only that it wasn't the only thing that defined him, and put forward the view that I would be open to creators picking and choosing from that list of elements what they feel is suitable for the story they want to tell and the medium they're telling it in to make the product they want to make. Not only might it help give comics the shake they desperately need, but it would make it easier for new iconic elements to develop for future creators to pick and choose from, instead of keeping the list of what is and isn't iconic basically static in perpetuity. Characters always having to stand by the full list of things that define them is why Spiderman sold his pregnant wife to the devil in order to save a woman who would not only be disgusted by the knowledge he had done so, but would, in real time probably die within a few years anyways. tsob fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Apr 16, 2015 |
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Apr 16, 2015 18:31
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tsob posted:Good thing that's not what I said then. I never denied it's also a part of what defines him, only that it wasn't the only thing that defined him, and put forward the view that I would be open to creators picking and choosing from that list of elements what they feel is suitable for the story they want to tell and the medium they're telling it in to make the product they want to make. Not only might it help give comics the shake they desperately need, but it would make it easier for new iconic elements to develop for future creators to pick and choose from, instead of keeping the list of what is and isn't iconic basically static in perpetuity. Batman, a man who dresses as a bat, isn't quite defined by his suit, yeah. Er wait nevermind. No, of course it's not the only thing that defines him, but 'dresses up as...' part is a pretty big chunk of Batman which is tied to everything else, getting rid of it just to 'shake off the comics' sounds as hilarious as whatever else DC did. Doesn't mean can't be done, but I'd expect it to happen before Daredevil loses his horns. Feels more like you're disappointed with the comics in general, by the way.
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Apr 16, 2015 18:52
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DarkCrawler posted:Have we been watching the same Marvel stuff? From Loki to Ronan to Red Skull all of the villains have been megalomaniac whiners. And that's fine when you command armies and do magic and all that. Kingpin is street level, he is cold, he's calculating, he's not some lovestruck half-baby who flips out in autistic rage. Kingpin wasn't in this show until D'Onofrio's last two scenes.
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Apr 16, 2015 18:53
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DarkCrawler posted:Have we been watching the same Marvel stuff? From Loki to Ronan to Red Skull all of the villains have been megalomaniac whiners. And that's fine when you command armies and do magic and all that. Kingpin is street level, he is cold, he's calculating, he's not some lovestruck half-baby who flips out in autistic rage. Its been a trip reading the comments in this thread, especially from the people not familiar with the material. Its great to hear differing impressions. I wouldn't personally want to change the costume, but I can see where that argument is coming from, and its an interesting one. This right here is arguing for something a whole lot less complex. See, the reason why people are flipping out over Wisk in this thread is because of how unusual the guy is in action stuff like this. How many times have you seen "cold" or "calculating". And that's it for the character? What you call a half-baby I call a character with several layers, all vying to come out on top depending on the situation and context. The fact that he isn't the most cold blooded thing out there makes him MORE dangerous. Every person that interacted with him picked up on that. This was a guy to not be hosed with, because he's an explosion waiting to happen, and god help you if you're in its path. He's not just "cool". He's loving interesting, and one of, in not the most, interesting character in a Marvel film/series yet. Another facet I dug was the corruption he represented, from the trial of the assassin onwards. I LOVED that thing Urich wrote about powerful people not needing to follow the rules everyone else does, that their own needs and desires are the only thing that matters. And yes, the middle class (and I guess everyone else) suffering for it. That's some nice thematic ground for a show about a flipping guy wailing on undesirables to cover. EDIT: Here's a nice test to figure out whether your character is actually complex. What do they do on their offhours? Red Skull/Loki/etc, no idea. But Fisk? Sitting in a dark corner of his lonely penthouse blankly staring at multimillion dollar works of horrifying childhood imagery. Shageletic fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Apr 16, 2015 |
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Apr 16, 2015 18:59
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Do we really need another cold, calculating 'ahaha! this was my plan all along!' descending into 'zounds! my one and only weakness was my own hubris! curses!' again? We've seen it half a dozen times in the MCU already, I thought it was great that they put more into Fisk than just making him a criminal God until Daredevil beat him up enough. That seems like the easy way out to me, I enjoyed seeing both a hero and a villain who were both very human. Marvel gets a lot of criticism for their one note villains (Ronan, Malekith, Hammer etc) and I thought this approach was great.
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Apr 16, 2015 19:01
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Musluk posted:Feels more like you're disappointed with the comics in general, by the way. Thank god I have you to interpret my statements and tell me how I really feel then I suppose. No, I'm not disappointed in comics. Some are great, some are poo poo. Same as anything. I don't read them anymore, but that's got nothing to do with costumes, silliness or adherence to icons and more to do with cost versus actual enjoyment. I could afford to start buying them again now, I just haven't bothered because I've been finding the various comic adaptations through games, cartoons, film and tv really enjoyable so paying for them just doesn't seem worth it when the comics are generally much the same thing. I think the suits work in some shows (Flash, Arrow), I don't think they work in others. I think some comic elements transfer seamlessly to screen adaptations and others work case by case. Consequently I'm open to seeing them or other elements be ditched in some shows if the creator wants and it fits the tone. Please, do be sure to tell me how this means I hate comics or comic adaptations once more though.
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Apr 16, 2015 19:02
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Unmature posted:I liked how they humanized Kingpin at first, but it went too far. At a certain point he stopped being scary and just kinda seemed like a big wimp to me. Especially the way he waddled away from Daredevil before the fight in the last episode like a little bitch. Agreed, I like the concept of kingpin-with-a-sensitive-soul (along the idea that he professes that he doesent enjoy hurting people, while murdock states that he does and either might or might not be lying) but it got a bit much. PaybackJack posted:I get what you're saying but I like different interpretations of the core idea and a lowkey, less flashy/gimmicky version was something I was really enjoying all the way through. I kept waiting for them to introduce familiar badguys but they never did and I was kind of shocked but I also really liked that. I hope if for next season they do introduce Bullseye/Typhoid Mary/Kirigi/Elektra/whoever they keep it down to earth as much as possible. Plus they did that thing where they introduce the comic book stuff then immediately make a joke about how dumb it is as if they're embarrassed about it "daredevil! sounds like you should be doing motercycle stunts or something!" massive spider fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Apr 16, 2015 |
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Apr 16, 2015 19:03
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Sorvah posted:Do we really need another cold, calculating 'ahaha! this was my plan all along!' descending into 'zounds! my one and only weakness was my own hubris! curses!' again? Oh! Knew I forgot to add one thing to my essay above, but look at actual criminal masterminds. Not the most calculating people. Brutal, yes. Crafty, sure. But supervillain cool, with a cat on their laps? Hell no. Capone was a syphillitic halfwit.
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Apr 16, 2015 19:05
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Shageletic posted:Oh! Knew I forgot to add one thing to my essay above, but look at actual criminal masterminds. Not the most calculating people. Brutal, yes. Crafty, sure. But supervillain cool, with a cat on their laps? Hell no. But how am I supposed to empathize with Wilson Fisk if he's not an awesome cold-blooded genius cool-under-fire badass ladies man like myself?
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Apr 16, 2015 19:08
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Shageletic posted:Its been a trip reading the comments in this thread, especially from the people not familiar with the material. Its great to hear differing impressions. I wouldn't personally want to change the costume, but I can see where that argument is coming from, and its an interesting one. I really really liked the scene where Urich was beginning his Fisk expose and it's full of these cliched "mega hit piece that takes down the villian" story beats and then bam, Fisk is right there on TV saying almost the exact same poo poo but with a positive spin and Urich just deletes his story.
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Apr 16, 2015 19:14
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The best thing is how Kingpin has always been like this. You can gently caress with his business, but god help you if you gently caress with Vanessa. She has actually been the cause of him going into self imposed exile a couple of times. They also point out that he often looks the fool, as no one will suspect him. He is cold calculating and if you gently caress with him then all bets are off.
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Apr 16, 2015 19:17
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massive spider posted:Agreed, I like the concept of kingpin-with-a-sensitive-soul (along the idea that he professes that he doesent enjoy hurting people, while murdock states that he does and either might or might not be lying) but it got a bit much
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Apr 16, 2015 19:20
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Steve Yun posted:I thought it did get a bit much with how sappy it got, but at the same time I have to admit I got choked up when Vanessa woke up in the hospital and Fisk was blaming himself for her condition. That's how he gets so fat later on. Always tasting her food before each meal.
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Apr 16, 2015 19:22
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bobkatt013 posted:The best thing is how Kingpin has always been like this. You can gently caress with his business, but god help you if you gently caress with Vanessa. She has actually been the cause of him going into self imposed exile a couple of times. They also point out that he often looks the fool, as no one will suspect him. He is cold calculating and if you gently caress with him then all bets are off. She's always played an ambigious figure in the comics, like a more sympathetic Carmelo Soprano (is that too much)? Hope the eventual season 2 (which HAS to happen) covers that ground. Daredevil never really sure where she stands.
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Apr 16, 2015 19:25
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Shageletic posted:She's always played an ambigious figure in the comics, like a more sympathetic Carmelo Soprano (is that too much)? Hope the eventual season 2 (which HAS to happen) covers that ground. Daredevil never really sure where she stands. She also is a contender for Mother of the Year!
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Apr 16, 2015 19:26
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bobkatt013 posted:She also is a contender for Mother of the Year! lol
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Apr 16, 2015 19:27
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Fisk acts like a child. He's selfish, willful, sulky, he throws tantrums. That's what he is. They tell us that explicitly by showing a bloody child when Fisk looks at his reflection. That child, what he did, is something Fisk is trying (unsuccessfully) to run from with his paper thin veneer of altruism and sophistication. He's a monstrous child and Vanessa gives him permission to embrace the monster. Fisk painfully confesses his sin to her and not only does she not shy away from it she praises it. That's the only way he can grow, by accepting what he is and becoming the Kingpin.
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Apr 16, 2015 20:57
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via twitter, someone's answer on a chemical safety survey:
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Apr 16, 2015 21:01
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Also D'Onofrio could've done a little work on his arms. Next to his fat head and barrel-y torso they looked pretty spindly.
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Apr 16, 2015 21:01
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Man, what did Fisk's mom eat every night at the nursing home? Zuppo? Cause I Google'd Zuppo and....well I guess I can see why it'd be hard for an old lady to leave that behind. I must have heard that wrong.
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Apr 16, 2015 21:28
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Grem posted:Man, what did Fisk's mom eat every night at the nursing home? Zuppo? Cause I Google'd Zuppo and....well I guess I can see why it'd be hard for an old lady to leave that behind. Zuppa.
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Apr 16, 2015 21:30
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Grem posted:Man, what did Fisk's mom eat every night at the nursing home? Zuppo? Cause I Google'd Zuppo and....well I guess I can see why it'd be hard for an old lady to leave that behind. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuppa_Inglese
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Apr 16, 2015 21:31
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Which is what her and little Wilson ate together. It's what Wilson and Vanessa got on their date, where Vanessa pointed out that it was something a child would eat.
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Apr 16, 2015 21:48
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Snak posted:Vanessa pointed out that it was something a child would eat.
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Apr 16, 2015 21:51
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Kingpin is a "whiny baby" of sorts in this show. That's how he sees himself because of his father's "toughen up, kid. Be somebody! Stand up for yourself! Kick him again!" way of raising him. He was pressured and frightened by his father for being a "wimp" and then permanently scarred and traumatized by what he and his mother did to the old man. He's pretending not to be these things and the cloak of strength, reclusiveness, power and ultimately the public face he wears is his costume. His "suit". But he still can't look in the mirror without seeing a scared "whiny baby" until he won Vanessa. She's is an obvious extension of his mother ("What you did is OK. Here's what you need to do now, etc. etc.") Notice how he looks to her for acceptance and approval after the speeches he gives and how he accepts her guidance without question. You don't have to be Freud to glean this from the show. Wilson's written as a person who's scared and insecure but feels like he needs to be strong and he's played wonderfully nuanced. I'm not seeing the problem with his portrayal at all. If there's a weak link in the cast, it's Foggy but even he's pretty darned good. I also take back "I wish they explained Matt's powers better" because I just watched "Nelson v. Mudock" and it summed it pretty well. But I think it'd have been better if they explained it earlier. Sometimes Matt just doesn't act blind. For example, hen he wakes up after Foggy finds him and he's beaten half to death, he immediately "sees" the bandages and poo poo next to his bed just by glancing at it.
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Apr 16, 2015 23:09
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My biggest gripe about his powers being too good is when he can tell there are two road flares in a box that is not nearby. Being able to tell that there are road flares I can see, because he can probably smell the magnesium, but how many?
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Apr 16, 2015 23:19
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Snak posted:My biggest gripe about his powers being too good is when he can tell there are two road flares in a box that is not nearby. Being able to tell that there are road flares I can see, because he can probably smell the magnesium, but how many? Sonar imaging
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Apr 16, 2015 23:21
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Snak posted:My biggest gripe about his powers being too good is when he can tell there are two road flares in a box that is not nearby. Being able to tell that there are road flares I can see, because he can probably smell the magnesium, but how many? He is not actually blind, it's just a line he uses to see women naked
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Apr 16, 2015 23:26
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Why isn't the thread title Avacados At Law?
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Apr 16, 2015 23:35
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Valeyard posted:He is not actually blind, it's just a line he uses to see women naked I feel like this is why he hasn't told Karen. Lots of splainin to do over watching her change shirts at his place.
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Apr 16, 2015 23:41
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Kheldarn posted:Why isn't the thread title Avacados At Law? Truly the greatest miscarriage of justice. Those we trust to protect us have let us down again.
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Apr 16, 2015 23:41
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BiggerBoat posted:Kingpin is a "whiny baby" of sorts in this show. That's how he sees himself because of his father's "toughen up, kid. Be somebody! Stand up for yourself! Kick him again!" way of raising him. He was pressured and frightened by his father for being a "wimp" and then permanently scarred and traumatized by what he and his mother did to the old man. He's pretending not to be these things and the cloak of strength, reclusiveness, power and ultimately the public face he wears is his costume. His "suit". But he still can't look in the mirror without seeing a scared "whiny baby" until he won Vanessa. Yeah, but you could still convey all that without him looking like such a little biatch.
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Apr 16, 2015 23:51
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Kheldarn posted:Why isn't the thread title Avacados At Law? Because that line is good enough that I don't want to ruin it for someone that hasn't gotten there yet.
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Apr 16, 2015 23:53
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Deadpool posted:Because that line is good enough that I don't want to ruin it for someone that hasn't gotten there yet. Works for me. Thanks, Goose!
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Apr 16, 2015 23:56
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Unmature posted:Yeah, but you could still convey all that without him looking like such a little biatch. I think he'll be a bit different moving forward. As previous posters have said, it's the story of Fisk becoming Kingpin. The gradual move towards the white coat, the acceptance of his true role, it's kinda clear that from now on you'll be looking at a much less disillusioned man. What we got was a relatively unique, nuanced background story for the show's central antagonist and those who just want him to be a world-beating archvillain will still get what they want out of him unless this wildly popular, critically lauded show somehow doesn't get another season.
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Apr 17, 2015 00:00
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BiggerBoat posted:
I think that was more for the audience. On the rewatch - and this show is worth rewatching, especially if it's just scenes you like - the actor is really good at making sure his eyes don't quite "track" properly, even though he's not wearing the contacts that the other blind people are wearing. As discussed earlier in this thread, blind people behave differently; some people just stare ahead but a lot of people do make an effort to be looking in the right general direction. This Matt's eyes do move around a bit, and he's clearly making a choice as to where his head is pointed (the actor and the character), but he never makes "eye contact" even when he's looking directly at someone, like the various people who visit his apartment when he has his glasses off. In that episode he spends a lot of time looking at Foggy when he's talking to him but not directly looking at him as if he could see him. He also uses his cane to trip up drunk Foggy, which is hilarious. There's a lot of nuance to their established routines before Foggy finds out he's Daredevil, and then after that Foggy doesn't know what the hell to do, what the hell Matt does or doesn't see. It's much more depth than the comics ever gave a very central issue to any long term relationship Matt would have.
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Apr 17, 2015 00:00
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double negative posted:I think he'll be a bit different moving forward. As previous posters have said, it's the story of Fisk becoming Kingpin. The gradual move towards the white coat, the acceptance of his true role, it's kinda clear that from now on you'll be looking at a much less disillusioned man. I mean, he's essentially at his transformation point right now. He's staring at the wall again, but his image of the man he wants to be has evolved. Fisk is someone who is good at sticking to his goals, but he's not great at choosing his goals or understanding how they will change things. It's a really realistic character trait. It's kind of also just like his dad, who was like "I will get elected, which will solve my problems" or "I will put up these signs, they will get me elected". Unlike his dad, Wilson has chances to learn from his mistakes and adjust his goals accordingly. I expect that we will seem him become more calculating and smarter. As he accepts who he is, his style of violence and intimidation may become more refined as well, because he won't be bottling it up and the flipping out, but rather knowing when to apply force personally to achieve his goals.
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Apr 17, 2015 00:06
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Unmature posted:Yeah, but you could still convey all that without him looking like such a little biatch. The whole point of his character is that he tries to be a "little biatch". He overcompensates because he's afraid of what he is, so he comes off as indecisive and weak right up until his nature breaks loose and he removes your head with a car door. His father was a coarse, brutish lout, so Fisk tries to be the opposite, but he still needs Wesley to choose his wine and he still beats people to death when they get in his way.
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Apr 17, 2015 00:17
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dj_clawson posted:He also uses his cane to trip up drunk Foggy, which is hilarious. There's a lot of nuance to their established routines before Foggy finds out he's Daredevil, and then after that Foggy doesn't know what the hell to do, what the hell Matt does or doesn't see. It's much more depth than the comics ever gave a very central issue to any long term relationship Matt would have. That's a good point. One of the things I liked about "Nelson v Murdock" was the central issue of trust and Foggy's sense of feeling betrayed and lied to for so many years. I never really looked at their relationship in that light or looked at it from the standpoint of why Foggy might feel betrayed. However, I think the comic did a better job in a lot of cases showing how Matt's blindness really is a handicap at times, especially when it came to things like colors and traffic lights and poo poo like that. Routine matters that we take for granted by being able to see. Sometimes it got goofy but the better writers on the series always found clever ways of reminding us that Matt is blind ("Hey, Murdock, what color is my shirt?") in spite of his powers.
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Apr 17, 2015 00:50
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