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bobkatt013 posted:I assume since you think that he is safe and has plot armor. Sure, but that seems more like a show-level choice rather than an "editorial" level choice.
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Apr 21, 2015 16:18
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The Sharmat posted:Also was I the only one that kept looking for Oscorp logos hidden in various places while watching this show? Daredevil finished filming before the Sony deal went through, so there was literally no chance of that.
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Apr 21, 2015 16:20
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkmgPlK0ABQSteven DeKnight posted:I thought it was a very powerful decision. It was a Marvel idea. When I came in and took over the show from Drew, they pitched me the broad strokes of the season. And towards the end of the season it was always written in code: ‘Wilson Fisk sends Ben Urich on vacation.’ I had the same reaction; I go, ‘Wow, killing Ben Urich, such a mainstay of the Marvel Universe.’ And they told me, ‘Yeah, Marvel asked to kill Ben Urich because they wanted to set up the feel that, despite everything you know about the comics that in this world, it’s very much everything goes.'
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Apr 21, 2015 16:24
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zoux posted:That's odd, I wonder what's behind that. I was kind of hoping that we'd see Ulrich across all five series as he has ties to street level stories but nope! For someone who reads absolutely no comic material, the death of Urich was something that made complete sense to me, and would have felt odd otherwise. There was no significance attached to him beyond an over the hill motivator for the blonde girl (I still don't know her name and I watched every episode recently, LOL!!!!!!!!). The only reason I knew he had some other significance was because of this thread. As far as Fisk, I thought he was a super interesting villain, and having him end up in jail felt anti-climactic for the grittiness of the show up until that point. I realize that he's "The Kingpin", but I feel like he should've died. I just don't buy him as a long term villain as his character is too polarizing. I found myself sympathizing with him and wanted him to simply be free of his tortured existence. Instead, I have to sit with the knowledge that they'll keep bringing him out and having him do things ineffectually.
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Apr 21, 2015 16:25
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Well there you go. Also Steven DeKnight looks like a gay porn star.
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Apr 21, 2015 16:25
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Stumpus posted:As far as Fisk, I thought he was a super interesting villain, and having him end up in jail felt anti-climactic for the grittiness of the show up until that point. I realize that he's "The Kingpin", but I feel like he should've died. I just don't buy him as a long term villain as his character is too polarizing. I found myself sympathizing with him and wanted him to simply be free of his tortured existence. Instead, I have to sit with the knowledge that they'll keep bringing him out and having him do things ineffectually. I think Wilson Fisk will be a pretty different person by season 2.
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Apr 21, 2015 16:26
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Stumpus posted:Instead, I have to sit with the knowledge that they'll keep bringing him out and having him do things ineffectually. Well, we don't know that given that the showrunner has already indicated what he would like to cover in season 2 and it isn't Kingpin again. Also, if they do bring him back out the entire point of this first season, for Fisk, is that he will not be ineffective anymore. He knows who and what he is now, and is ready to actually be the Kingpin.
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Apr 21, 2015 16:27
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Stumpus posted:For someone who reads absolutely no comic material, the death of Urich was something that made complete sense to me, and would have felt odd otherwise. There was no significance attached to him beyond an over the hill motivator for the blonde girl (I still don't know her name and I watched every episode recently, LOL!!!!!!!!). The only reason I knew he had some other significance was because of this thread. Oh do not worry Fisk will return and he will be effectual
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Apr 21, 2015 16:27
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bobkatt013 posted:Oh do not worry Fisk will return and he will be effectual Yeah I mean his hands won't really be tied by anything anymore since his new position is that "This city deserves to drown in filth".
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Apr 21, 2015 16:32
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mikeraskol posted:Well, we don't know that given that the showrunner has already indicated what he would like to cover in season 2 and it isn't Kingpin again. I guess I'm not really looking at it in a series perspective. Still though, there was a theme about whether a hero should kill or not. Fisk's violence was explained by a troubled past and a jacked up mother and father. Murdock was not a killer because superhero. It would have been nice to have that theme come to a close with some force and, ironically, I think it would have been best served by having Fisk die.
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Apr 21, 2015 17:13
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Stumpus posted:For someone who reads absolutely no comic material, the death of Urich was something that made complete sense to me, and would have felt odd otherwise. There was no significance attached to him beyond an over the hill motivator for the blonde girl (I still don't know her name and I watched every episode recently, LOL!!!!!!!!). The only reason I knew he had some other significance was because of this thread. I'm not sure what kind of significance you were looking for. He was sort of a bit player in the main plot, but then again that plot is wrapping up so it doesn't seem to matter much. But he had his own little subplot looking at the state of journalism in the city; that was just starting to get interesting, and I was hoping to see it develop over the course of the other Defenders shows.
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Apr 21, 2015 17:14
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Stumpus posted:I guess I'm not really looking at it in a series perspective. That would've totally undermined the central theme of "how can I deal with this guy without killing him". I mean he wrestles with killing him the whole season and then to have Fisk die, whether by Matt's hand or not, completely obviates that whole conflict.
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Apr 21, 2015 17:20
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So Jessica Jones is next, right? What's the deal with Jessica Jones. I somehow remember a tiny bit about Iron Fist from long ago when I actually read Marvel Comics, but I know absolutely nothing about this character.Stumpus posted:Murdock was not a killer because superhero. It's really more because he's Catholic.
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Apr 21, 2015 17:25
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zoux posted:That would've totally undermined the central theme of "how can I deal with this guy without killing him". Apparently an indefinite coma is acceptable, though? He should have just taken Fisk up to a rooftop and thrown him in a dumpster.
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Apr 21, 2015 17:28
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Spoilers about Jessica Jones: She was a former B-list superhero who went to school with Peter Parker and go her powers from a truck spilling toxic waste on her. She had pretty generic flight, invulnerability and strength powers and went by the name Jewel. She was mind controlled for a long time by a villian called The Purple Man, who at the end of it forced her to go after the Avengers. She punches Scarlet Witch and Thor and Vision go berserk on her and after all the fallout clears she decides she doesn't want to be a superhero anymore. So she vows to not use her powers and becomes a PI that works street level super heroey cases. I don't know how much they are going to change it for the series because a lot of her character arc works because she was this background character that no one knew about among the vast and deep Marvel Universe. But with how shallow the MCU is in terms of actual existing superheroes, I don't see how you adapt that, so I'd expect some serious changes. For one thing she's best friends with Jessica Drew and Carol Danvers, and I don't think either of those characters are gonna be in the show. McNerd posted:Apparently an indefinite coma is acceptable, though? He should have just taken Fisk up to a rooftop and thrown him in a dumpster. Let's talk about character arcs and how actions and beliefs change over time.
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Apr 21, 2015 17:29
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Jessica Jones developed Superman-style powers and decided to try out for The Avengers, got mind controlled by a dude named Zebediah Killgrave, The Purple Man and quit the game after she broke free from his control. Alias/AKA Jessica Jones is about how she deals with the fallout from that. edit: Spoiler tags added
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Apr 21, 2015 17:29
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Jessica Jones sounds like a potentially really interesting character concept that would be incredibly hard to actually execute. I've got faith after Daredevil though. zoux posted:Let's talk about character arcs and how actions and beliefs change over time. I mean there's some hair splitting involved but the show actually deals with that and has people call him on it from a variety of different perspectives. It's pretty much one of the best versions of "I must never kill anyone in this incredibly mortally dangerous crusade" I've seen. The Sharmat fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 17:31
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The Sharmat posted:Jessica Jones sounds like a potentially really interesting character concept that would be incredibly hard to actually execute. All of Alias is collected in an omnibus so she's real easy to catch up on if you're interested.
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Apr 21, 2015 17:33
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zoux posted:All of Alias is collected in an omnibus so she's real easy to catch up on if you're interested. I don't really like comic books any more to be honest. They just feel flat to me. Probably more an issue with me than an issue with the medium.
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Apr 21, 2015 17:35
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Do what you want, but Alias was the first comic I ever read as an adult and it's loving amazing.
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Apr 21, 2015 17:36
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zoux posted:Do what you want, but Alias was the first comic I ever read as an adult and it's loving amazing. I've tried other stuff pitched to me with that qualifier before, and again, it's probably not really the comics, it's just me. No matter how objectively good or bad it might be, when I read a comic now I feel like I'm seeing a book and a cartoon jammed together with none of the good parts remaining. Other people clearly don't have this problem, and I didn't have this issue as a kid. But there it is.
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Apr 21, 2015 17:47
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zoux posted:For one thing she's best friends with Jessica Drew and Carol Danvers, and I don't think either of those characters are gonna be in the show. They have Patty Walker in it instead.
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Apr 21, 2015 18:29
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bobkatt013 posted:They have Patty Walker in it instead. Yeah I know. But it's probably going to have to change the most from the source material to fit into the MCU.
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Apr 21, 2015 18:31
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The Sharmat posted:I don't really like comic books any more to be honest. They just feel flat to me. Probably more an issue with me than an issue with the medium. ~$70 is a little steep... What about Iron Fist? He sounds like a big departure from what current TV/Movie Marvel feels like. Is there recommended reading for Iron Fist?
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Apr 21, 2015 18:32
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Snak posted:~$70 is a little steep... Immortal Iron Fist by Ed Brubaker and Matt Fraction with artist by David Aja
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Apr 21, 2015 18:34
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Snak posted:~$70 is a little steep... Immortal Iron Fist hands down. Marvel Unlimited is running a free month promo because they added a bunch of Star Wars comics, so you can sign up for free and read like, almost all the back catalog. It's great on a tablet. (no Alias though).
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Apr 21, 2015 18:34
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zoux posted:Yeah I know. But it's probably going to have to change the most from the source material to fit into the MCU. The MCU seems to mostly do a pretty good job about deciding when to just dump something that was comics canon but doesn't work for what they're building so I'm not worried.
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Apr 21, 2015 18:34
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bobkatt013 posted:They have Patty Walker in it instead. If Dazzler could somehow be in this as well, this show would have my three favorite comic book super heroines.
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Apr 21, 2015 18:38
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The Sharmat posted:Nah you're saying they shouldn't have made him black and then killed him, which is not that different. Nah I'm saying they should not have killed the character Ben Urich off regardless of race, and I think the fact they killed him off in such a retarded* way after making the decision to change his race, in a society where our media is full of black characters being the characters who are killed off quickly, was worth rolling my eyes at, not that "if a black character dies in your show your racist!" or whatever. It also seems like they're prepping Karen to fill his role, and if you don't see the  in replacing the old grizzled black man with the young pretty blonde woman, I honestly don't know what to tell you.But I like your style kid, keep putting words in other people's mouths. *Why was it retarded? let me restate the part of my post you did not quote in clearer ways:The kingpin killing him while he has a history of being one of the few reporters who doesn't drag family members through the mud in his stories (See: that conversation with the mobster in the scene we're introduced to Urich in) which the kingpin is probably aware of considering how much else he has on Urich is loving retarded and hurts both characters. Why would the kingpin expect him to do anything that would compromise his mom when he has a history of doing exactly the opposite? Killing him off also means that they are messing with a bunch of potential plot-arcs from the comic that Ben Urich plays important roles in (Alias/Jessica Jones as well). They can write around it, but it's just loving retarded shock-value/raising the stakes, which is kind of a classic way for the "kill off the token black character" to go.
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Apr 21, 2015 18:38
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mr.capps posted:If Dazzler could somehow be in this as well, this show would have my three favorite comic book super heroines. Whoa the worlds only Hellcat fan.
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Apr 21, 2015 18:38
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mr.capps posted:If Dazzler could somehow be in this as well, this show would have my three favorite comic book super heroines. Despite the fact that she's an mutie-rear end X-Man, technically I think MTV may still have her movie rights (and Marvel has even been rumored to have them back already I believe), so theoretically this could be possible.
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Apr 21, 2015 18:40
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surc posted:But I like your style kid, keep putting words in other people's mouths. Dang, you got defensive when everyone didn't instantly pat you on the back for spotting the trope real quick.
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Apr 21, 2015 18:41
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The Sharmat posted:Also there is a bit of a psychological difference between doing something that might kill a person in pursuit of a larger goal vs. just actively setting out to go kill a specific person as your end goal. Well, there was no larger goal. He had what he needed from that guy; he pretty much just kicked him off the roof out of anger when he wouldn't stop mouthing off. I guess you could argue he needs the guy out of the way for a few hours lest he warn his friends that the masked man is coming. But Matt doesn't worry about this in other cases (e.g. Detective Blake) and anyhow could have just tied him up. That said, on further reflection what's going on is that Matt lashed out in murderous rage, and then afterwards tried to rationalize it. The goal being to avoid the conclusion that "I'm already a murderer so I should just go ahead and murder some more." His rationalization is ridiculously weak, and if he continued to excuse future behavior this way he would be depraved, but I guess it makes more sense than I initially gave it credit for. McNerd fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 18:43
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zoux posted:Whoa the worlds only Hellcat fan. What is wrong with Hellcat? She was pretty great recently in the She Hulk comic.
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Apr 21, 2015 18:43
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surc posted:*Why was it retarded? let me restate the part of my post you did not quote in clearer ways:The kingpin killing him while he has a history of being one of the few reporters who doesn't drag family members through the mud in his stories (See: that conversation with the mobster in the scene we're introduced to Urich in) which the kingpin is probably aware of considering how much else he has on Urich is loving retarded and hurts both characters. Why would the kingpin expect him to do anything that would compromise his mom when he has a history of doing exactly the opposite? Killing him off also means that they are messing with a bunch of potential plot-arcs from the comic that Ben Urich plays important roles in (Alias/Jessica Jones as well). They can write around it, but it's just loving retarded shock-value/raising the stakes, which is kind of a classic way for the "kill off the token black character" to go. It did seem like DeKnight's comments basically translated to "Marvel wanted to kill him off 100% because it would be shocking to comic fans" which is like, not exactly the most artistically valid reason. DeKnight & the writers kinda made it work in the show; it made sense that Fisk's decision to kill him was irrational and emotionally-driven, that's the core of who he is. But it felt so telegraphed to me that it didn't have any impact and overall just felt forced. Which, big surprise, it was.
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Apr 21, 2015 18:45
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So are they going to have Jessica Jones attack Agents of Shield? That'd simplify things.
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Apr 21, 2015 18:45
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Soylentbits posted:So are they going to have Jessica Jones attack Agents of Shield? That'd simplify things. I haven't thought of that but thinking about it, yeah that seems like a really easy way to do it.
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Apr 21, 2015 18:46
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surc posted:*Why was it retarded? let me restate the part of my post you did not quote in clearer ways:The kingpin killing him while he has a history of being one of the few reporters who doesn't drag family members through the mud in his stories (See: that conversation with the mobster in the scene we're introduced to Urich in) which the kingpin is probably aware of considering how much else he has on Urich is loving retarded and hurts both characters. Why would the kingpin expect him to do anything that would compromise his mom when he has a history of doing exactly the opposite? Killing him off also means that they are messing with a bunch of potential plot-arcs from the comic that Ben Urich plays important roles in (Alias/Jessica Jones as well). They can write around it, but it's just loving retarded shock-value/raising the stakes, which is kind of a classic way for the "kill off the token black character" to go. Yeah but Fisk was never shown to be rational when it comes to people he thinks can hurt his family/girlfriend. He does not care that Ben is not writing about his family, he visited her when he worked so hard to hide her. They were also told that he was going to die, so it did not matter what race he was he was going to die no matter what. They killed him to show that characters you think are safe are not. Who knows what they plan to do with Karen, but they did give one of his defining attributes to Foggy. Remember Foggy did not figure it out until around issue 350, Ben knew in the 100s.
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Apr 21, 2015 18:46
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mr.capps posted:I haven't thought of that but thinking about it, yeah that seems like a really easy way to do it. I doubt she will attack anyone noteworthy (and if she does it will be off screen), Purple Man trauma will be enough on its own.
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Apr 21, 2015 18:47
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XboxPants posted:It did seem like DeKnight's comments basically translated to "Marvel wanted to kill him off 100% because it would be shocking to comic fans" which is like, not exactly the most artistically valid reason. I think it was more to make it clear that no one is safe, particularly not just because they were recurring characters in the comics. That's a perfectly valid reason. Tension is kind of necessary and metaknowledge like "They'll never actually seriously put this character in danger because they're so iconic in the source material" deflates that tension.
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Apr 21, 2015 18:55
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