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On the topic of Nergals timeline, one minor tidbit is that Ninians A support with Florina somewhat suggests that his Ice Dragon wife lived in Ilia, helping out the humans there with the harsh snowy climate. Then during the Scouring, she, with other like minded dragons, fled 'to a faraway place', presumably Valor, and/or the Dragons gate, to avoid having to kill anyone. No mention of when the Dragon and Nergal meet though. It could be she set out with the intention of going through the gate but had second thoughts, staying behind with a Human she fell for, whom she met along the way. Seems an Ice dragon thing to do.
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Apr 24, 2015 13:56
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Awakening is a game that i'm glad exists... It's just that I personally found it a massive letdown as a long time fan of the series. I'm happy that it's an entry game that introduced alot of new players to the series, not to mention saving the series to begin with. The problems I have were touched upon by Artix. You look at 7's level design, as Melth has been showing. Very intricate, smartly laid out levels where almost every chapter has their own objectives and quirks. They start to feel like puzzles at times, especially ones like Whereabouts Unknown and Battle Before Dawn, where you need to think carefully about your unit setups and positions. Awakening devolves into "Here's a big sprawling map where you smash the bad people". There's also the characterisation, and the sad thing is, i'd actually enjoy alot of the characters, if not for how they are presented. I do think that there is quite a bit of depth in the Supports (And to another extent the Future Past DLC), but the problem is, almost every character has their ~Wacky Gimmick~ pushed front and center. I'm fine with IS taking a more comical and snarky approach to their scripts, it helped Days of Ruin a bunch, but they went completely overboard in Awakening. Every character is a wacky gimmick first and foremost. It's a massive oversaturation of comic relief traits. It got to the point where when I recruited Henry, I immediately hated him. Because I had about half a dozen characters with wacky comedy gimmicks, and I didn't want another. It's why Lucina was one of my favourite characters. Because she had a straightforward personality that was used for a basis with the weirder traits used for comedy. It's something that I liked in the older games, where characters with their own traits made humor by bouncing off others and showing more of themselves, like Reyson talking about how he tried to imitate Tibarn. Also, fantastic work on this LP Melth. I love your analysis on one of my favourite games of all time.
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Apr 24, 2015 14:12
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Melth, your assessment of FE8 delights me. Like, I understand your criticisms and agree with them: it's not a pretty game (I think Wada Sachiko's character art is gorgeous but in that old-anime kind of feel where I can forgive the colors) and it wouldn't make for that good of an LP for how you would go about it. Which, I might add, is really fun to read.Emperordaein posted:Awakening is a game that i'm glad exists... It's just that I personally found it a massive letdown as a long time fan of the series. I'm happy that it's an entry game that introduced alot of new players to the series, not to mention saving the series to begin with. I also like this sentiment, but I'd like to add that bolded part will always make me feel so petty. Not that I'm ungrateful for the save, but it literally has to come up whenever someone critiques Awakening. At least you said "series" and not "franchise".
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Apr 24, 2015 14:51
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Dire Wombat posted:The only way the Black Knight could be more cliched is if he were Ike's father/brother. I think I have to agree that Nergal is the best FE villain. Are we counting sub-villains, like Trabant on that list? Because I do enjoy Trabant a lot, certainly more than the main villains of FE 4 and 5. I just find his mix of selflessness, selfishness, a bit of bullshit to blend the two, and honesty ("If this damns us to hell, so be it." I like it when villains aren't necessarily card-carrying evil, but are willing to admit they've done terrible things for their goals, and probably will not be forgiven by anything), really appealing. That said, I think Fire Emblem is usually actually better at little stories than big ones. Nergal has just enough "little stories" attached to him (his relationship with Nils and Ninian, his thing with Kishuna and the morphs) that he manages to evade the usual follies of Fire Emblem Main Villains. The styling turban does not hurt, either. As for Awakening... The things I liked about it, I really liked (Which, now that I think about it, is mainly unlimited supports. I loooove me some supports), but I guessed long ago what Melth disliked about it, listening to how he talks about the maps on this, which he likes and doesn't, and in some places, I agree: there's just nothing to do. The basic strategy for every map is "Create a rolling ball of violence, roll it around." Sometimes, you did not even need to make it a ball. Outside of the sidequest maps, there was never any recruiting dudes from the enemy (Oh, pardon, me, there was that one time) barely any villages or chests or good stealables, nothing to protect... Just sweep the map, sweep the map, sweep the map. If it's difficult, it's because things are stronger than your broom, but that's about it. Like I said before, it made me actually miss the trademark Fire Emblem Desert Level Bullshit.
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Apr 24, 2015 14:58
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Awakening definitely had the biggest crop of awful characters, and completely directionless character designs, but there were some characters who made their gimmicks work. Gregor and Brady had their gimmicks front and center, but they made them work. I also did like when supports brought out unexpected qualities in characters, like Donnel being a literal genius or Candy Dude being an accomplished blacksmith.Emperordaein posted:I'm fine with IS taking a more comical and snarky approach to their scripts, it helped Days of Ruin a bunch, but they went completely overboard in Awakening. Every character is a wacky gimmick first and foremost. It's a massive oversaturation of comic relief traits. DoR was almost entirely the US localization, actually. Every gimmick you can think of was absent in the more literal European translation. There was no time to make like a bakery truck and haul buns, nor any mr. Bear or delightful southern accents in the original script, unless those were removed for the EU release. Which makes me wonder how many character gimmicks in Awakening were added by the localization. I feel like all the worst gimmicks were the ones that were in the original game but don't translate well to English, like the Miriels' loquaciousness, Tharja's creepyness or Olivia's... whatever you call it. E: Awakening did have that one chapter that spawns 9 range assassins with silver bows right near the boss, which move on the turn they spawn and have a chance to have the Pass ability. That's challenge of a sort. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 15:29 on Apr 24, 2015 |
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Apr 24, 2015 15:21
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Melth posted:And I hated the sub-humans and everything about them and their presence in the game. Bleed the half-breed!
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Apr 24, 2015 15:29
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Endorph posted:fantasy racism is a pretty tired trope but this is kind of weird Maybe, but then when you think about the fact that they're furries except a real thing... well maybe.
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Apr 24, 2015 15:36
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FoolyCharged posted:Maybe, but then when you think about the fact that they're furries except a real thing... well maybe.
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Apr 24, 2015 16:03
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Awakening is a decent game. But it's a bad Fire Emblem game. Fire Emblem games have always been about managing limited resources. Limited cash, limited experience, limited amounts of level ups to gain stats with. FE8 and Awakening fail at being Fire Emblem games because you can piss about endlessly, max all your characters, and steamroll the game. I know people have tried to paint that as a good thing by saying it can allow you to customise your difficulty level, but I don't think that's worth its price. Fire Emblem games have, to me, always been about carefully managing who to use and who not to use, when to break out the powerful weapons and when to make do with less, and planning strategies in a way that plays to characters' strengths. None of that matters when you can steamroll the early game with Frederick (who you'd normally be discouraged from using because he's taking exp from other units), because oh, you can just level everyone else up in the Outworld. You can fling his Silver Lance around with reckless abandon because oh, you can just grind money in Outworld and buy seven more by calling in Bonus Teams to buy from. Second Seals mean there are no characters with bad classes or growth rates, or any bad characters end of, other than from a writing standpoint. And I mean yes, you can impose restrictions on yourself, no Outworld, no Bonus Box, no Second Seals etc, but when has having to use self-imposed challenges to make a game fun ever been a hallmark of good game design? Even the Arenas in previous games had an element of danger to them, cheap though they were, the real chance of dying was always present. Outworld EXP grinding is completely challenge-less. Might as well beat up pinatas. Awakening is Fire Emblem, minus everything that made it Fire Emblem. That doesn't make it entirely un-fun, I like making up ridiculous skill combinations, but FE10 had that and it was still a "proper" Fire Emblem game. Stick a bunch of optional chapters in FE10, lock some skills to classes and get rid of the costs on Shove and Canto, and we're golden. FE10 was great. It's second after FE4 as far as I'm concerned.
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Apr 24, 2015 16:23
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Kajeesus posted:Awakening definitely had the biggest crop of awful characters, and completely directionless character designs, but there were some characters who made their gimmicks work. Gregor and Brady had their gimmicks front and center, but they made them work. I also did like when supports brought out unexpected qualities in characters, like Donnel being a literal genius or Candy Dude being an accomplished blacksmith. Henry and Gregor got a lot better from the localization, if I remember right. Awakening I feel is a good and addictive standalone game, but for the franchise it belongs to (Fire Emblem), it probably sticks out as being pretty dumbed down. Similar to Persona Q - it's a decent enough game in its own right, but it's a very beginner version of the series it pays homage to (Etrian Odyssey).
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Apr 24, 2015 17:12
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MarquiseMindfang posted:Second Seals mean there are no characters with bad classes or growth rates, or any bad characters end of Why on earth did you include this in your list of criticisms. There not being bad characters is a good thing.
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Apr 24, 2015 17:25
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MarquiseMindfang posted:Awakening is a decent game. But it's a bad Fire Emblem game. I think it always boils down to this. Any argument beyond this is just semantics or a more a detailed reason why. It is certainly not a bad game objectively, it's just not what hardcore FE people wanted. I think wishing death on the franchise like Advance Wars rather than letting it continue is a bit much from some people. Also, the art is cool. What's wrong with the art, too stylistic? Is it just the armor/clothes? I think the faces are by far the best the franchise has ever done.
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Apr 24, 2015 17:30
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Tae posted:I think it always boils down to this. Any argument beyond this is just semantics or a more a detailed reason why. It is certainly not a bad game objectively, it's just not what hardcore FE people wanted. I think wishing death on the franchise like Advance Wars rather than letting it continue is a bit much from some people. I like all a lot of the character concept art but a lot of the in game portraits look bad to me.
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Apr 24, 2015 17:46
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The art is good, although some of the class designs bad (incidentally, kozaki didn't have control over some of the class designs)
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Apr 24, 2015 17:55
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Dr Pepper posted:Why on earth did you include this in your list of criticisms. There not being bad characters is a good thing. 'Cos it's not Fire Emblem if there are no Jeigans or Ests, nor a spectrum for the other characters to be on between them. In Awakening your growths don't matter, your bases barely do (certainly not after the first five chapters), so why even have those things? If there are no good or bad characters, what does it matter who you use? And if it doesn't matter who you use, why even have all these characters? Fire Emblem game discussions have always been punctuated by war stories about which normally bad unit turned out great this time, or who destroyed their average stats against all odds, and whatnot. You don't have that when everyone can max everything via grinding. Nobody says "Oh, I got a really great Virion last playthrough" because everyone can have a fantastic Virion if they want to. Similarly, nobody goes "oh my Chrom didn't gain a point of Def in 25 levels" because there are infinite levels so that doesn't matter. Its just bland.
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Apr 24, 2015 18:01
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Well that's less a good characters bad characters problem and more of a none of the characters have character stat wise problem. You can have a game where none of the units are innately bad but they still have interesting bases and growths that lead to them turning out differently.
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Apr 24, 2015 18:13
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This game would be greatly improved if Karla* was usable on her own merits outside of a gimmick run. *Replace Karla with [BAD FE7 CHARACTER] if desired Saying that each character being good and usable makes them samey is dumb.
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Apr 24, 2015 18:15
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I can see the argument for the existence of characters with specific purposes outside of just being Good Units: Tormod in FE9 is pretty average statwise, but his +2 move gives him a niche. Jeigans have a niche. Legault and Matthew in this game are pretty bad combat units, but they, again, have a niche. Second seals do kind of remove the possibilities for characters like that. That said, grinding isn't really the culprit there. You can arena abuse in this game to make any unit usable, since nobody's going to be 20/20 by the game's end without favoritism or grinding.
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Apr 24, 2015 18:20
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Dr Pepper posted:This game would be greatly improved if Karla* was usable on her own merits outside of a gimmick run. I have this same argument over Final Fantasy games. I like a character's stats and abilities to reflect their characterisation. Dorcas is passed over a lot because of his piddling Speed growth. But, I mean look at him. Would it really fit him if he was fast enough to be competitive? I mean, let's be honest. The game's not exactly hard as it is, you could probably beat it with all the Z listers if you wanted. You couldn't max rank it like Melth with Z listers, but the crap units are more than enough to see you through the game. I like characters to be recognisably and relevantly different, and yes, that means good and bad. The same comes in Final Fantasy. I love 9 because the characters' abilities reflect their characterisation. The black mage uses black magic, the thief steals. I hate 12 because everyone can do everything. The noble princess can steal as well as the lifelong thief, the urchin girl can use firearms just as well as the trained sky pirate. It doesn't matter a jot who you use, since all that actually changes is the face next to the HP/MP meters. I feel the same about Awakening. It doesn't matter at all who I use, because nobody has any strengths or weaknesses.
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Apr 24, 2015 18:41
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that isn't mutually exclusive. characters can be mechanically distinct without some of them being bad. To use the FF9 example you posted, none of the character are bad in FF9 in the same way someone like Karla is bad.
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Apr 24, 2015 18:43
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Cake Attack posted:that isn't mutually exclusive. characters can be mechanically distinct without some of them being bad. I dunno. I'd argue maybe Amarant is worse than the rest of the cast, lacking a guaranteed-9999 ability like Quina/Zidane/Freya/Steiner, or huge multi-nukes like Garnet, Eiko and Vivi. I'm not saying Karla couldn't use being bumped a couple notches, or given a niche as an unusually-defensive Swordmaster or something, but she doesn't need to be Guy mk2.
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Apr 24, 2015 18:53
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Amarant is fine; he gets a bunch of excellent unique support abilities. I didn't know people actually used Freya and Quina's grind abilities outside of low level games. Why would you?Tae posted:Also, the art is cool. What's wrong with the art, too stylistic? Is it just the armor/clothes? I think the faces are by far the best the franchise has ever done. The concept art and character faces are good. The character outfits and portraits are not. You have Donnel with a pokey stick (none of his actual classes use spears) and tin-pot helmet next to space marine Kellam. Maribelle with a parasol in every conversation she has, and Gaius with a lollipop stuck to his shirt. You have mages in sensible (relative) witch outfits, clerics with poofy skirts everywhere and whatever the hell dark mages wear. None of the characters look like they're from the same universe.
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Apr 24, 2015 19:42
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Kajeesus posted:You have Donnel with a pokey stick (none of his actual classes use spears) Villager uses Spears.
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Apr 24, 2015 19:46
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Dorcas' low speed may make sense, but that doesn't mean he should be noncompetitive. If anything it means that speed shouldn't be such an important stat - so you can have competitive slow characters.
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Apr 24, 2015 19:48
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Tae posted:Villager uses Spears.
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Apr 24, 2015 19:48
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Kajeesus posted:Amarant is fine; he gets a bunch of excellent unique support abilities. I didn't know people actually used Freya and Quina's grind abilities outside of low level games. Why would you? Dragon Crest is still remarkably easy to power up compared to the rest; I know I never got Thievery to 9999 damage. And Awakening definitely has bad characters, especially without a considerable amount of grinding. Virion, Ricken, Frederick-post Chapter 5 or 6, most of the kids. Even some of your early characters are pretty bad with a small amount of RNG-screwing: Maribelle, Sumia, Vaike and Stahl will fall behind quickly if they don't get some RNG. It's just less painful in the game because you can Second Seal and grind on the map. Also despite actually being able to attack, Olivia is really bad stuck as a Dancer without reclassing since she can't dodge nearly as well as some of the other dancers in the series can.
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Apr 24, 2015 20:00
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Yukari posted:I think that's what he meant by "actual classes". really that one isn't the art team's fault.
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Apr 24, 2015 20:12
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I think a lot of this discussion has turned into "Any true Fire Emblem has X mechanic or metagame concept in it, game Y does not have X in it so it's bad," which is not terribly productive. I also think short forum posts are not a great medium with which to advocate for your favorite FE games. There's not enough space or time to really show what you like and display the game's strengths. If you think your favorite FE game doesn't get enough respect and you're passionate about that game, I suggest doing something like making an LP about it and why it's great so you can really go in detail and also show us what you're talking about. You'll probably never convince me that any other game is the match of FE7, but I for one am willing to hear you out.
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Apr 24, 2015 20:24
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Endorph posted:but donny starts in villager He could be not holding a spear in his in-game portrait, like the vast majority of characters. I guess I don't like prop designs in general, but Donnel's is just weird. ApplesandOranges posted:Dragon Crest is still remarkably easy to power up compared to the rest; I know I never got Thievery to 9999 damage. Hm, fair enough. I'll be honest, I tend to forget about Freya after she's absent for nearly a whole Disc.
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Apr 24, 2015 20:47
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Awakening makes me smile and laugh a lot, and I forgive a lot of its faults for that.
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Apr 24, 2015 20:53
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I just wanted to say that I'm kinda surprised/relieved at the hate Awakening's story/characters are getting. While I enjoyed the game, I thought gameplay and story wise it absolutely tanked the moment Valm popped up and vaguely remember stating this in the LP that occurred and being told I was being stupid/overacting. It kinda seems like opinion has changed on Awakening now? Also Lute's color scheme in 8 is great, what'cu talking about?
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Apr 24, 2015 20:56
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Some people always hated Awakening, they just didn't post in the Awakening thread.
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Apr 24, 2015 20:57
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I like Awakening, I just have a much easier time benching characters than I do in other Fire Emblem games.
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Apr 24, 2015 21:00
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Arbitrary Coin posted:I just wanted to say that I'm kinda surprised/relieved at the hate Awakening's story/characters are getting. While I enjoyed the game, I thought gameplay and story wise it absolutely tanked the moment Valm popped up and vaguely remember stating this in the LP that occurred and being told I was being stupid/overacting. It kinda seems like opinion has changed on Awakening now? Lute's color scheme is the best because Lute is the best at everything. She told me so herself. Also, given that we're already pretty much at endgame, props for the rapid update schedule melth. It's really impressive that you kept the pace up given your tendency to do those massive write ups pretty much every chapter.
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Apr 24, 2015 21:03
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FoolyCharged posted:props for the rapid update schedule melth. It's really impressive that you kept the pace up given your tendency to do those massive write ups pretty much every chapter. Thanks. It was pretty rough sometimes and a fair amount of work, but way more rewarding than I expected. When I was first starting out I figured almost no one would be interested in another FE7 LP -let alone one so heavy on text and short on pictures as this one- and I'd mostly be talking to myself. I also had no idea how to do an LP besides the very basic stuff i'd read in the forum instructions here. And I didn't really know this site and figured that what people I did talk to would probably be twerps, as people on the internet tend to be. I never expected to have such a large or cool audience. I also didn't think I'd learn as much about the game -or the series more generally- from you guys as I did. And I'm still pretty amazed that Artix, the guy whose great LP made me want to write this one, has actually been reading mine. So working on this LP really turned out to take more time but be less work than I expected and I often couldn't wait to start writing about the next chapter. I do think that in some places my update speed hurt my quality somewhat. I was writing up like 10,000 words or more for many chapters in just a couple of hours and that left little time to proofread. I was also often writing at like 4 AM and nodding off at the keyboard, so there are quite a few typos. I've been thinking about going back and doing some proofreading, fixing any factual errors, and possibly revising the earlier chapters to have the same standardized format as the later ones among other things. On the other hand, I don't want to annoy people by Lucasing it up.
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Apr 24, 2015 21:40
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Melth posted:I've been thinking about going back and doing some proofreading, fixing any factual errors, and possibly revising the earlier chapters to have the same standardized format as the later ones among other things. On the other hand, I don't want to annoy people by Lucasing it up. Pro tip: Do it, then do it again before you ask about archiving, then do it again once baldurk gets you a draft. Once everything is archived, you can't change it without going through baldurk and he already does so much for the forums that you shouldn't bother him over typos. Fix that poo poo before he has to.
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Apr 24, 2015 22:25
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Melth posted:I've been thinking about going back and doing some proofreading, fixing any factual errors, and possibly revising the earlier chapters to have the same standardized format as the later ones among other things. On the other hand, I don't want to annoy people by Lucasing it up.
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Apr 24, 2015 23:15
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Melth posted:
Definitely do some proof-reading. If nothing else, to make it look nice for the LP Archive. There were a bunch of places where you put the wrong image, for instance. Fixing those will make everything look nice and sparkly for posterity! Also, regarding this: Melth posted:If you think your favorite FE game doesn't get enough respect and you're passionate about that game, I suggest doing something like making an LP about it and why it's great so you can really go in detail and also show us what you're talking about. You'll probably never convince me that any other game is the match of FE7, but I for one am willing to hear you out. I would love to LP Awakening, but doing such things on the 3DS is a difficult (and expensive) undertaking.
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Apr 25, 2015 00:28
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Silver Falcon posted:I would love to LP Awakening, but doing such things on the 3DS is a difficult (and expensive) undertaking. I would not do this, unless you understand support conversations alone are as long as a single RPG.
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Apr 25, 2015 00:31
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Silver Falcon posted:I would love to LP Awakening, but doing such things on the 3DS is a difficult (and expensive) undertaking. Tae posted:I would not do this, unless you understand support conversations alone are as long as a single RPG. Alternatively, do it, but don't show off every support conversation because therein lies madness.
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Apr 25, 2015 00:49
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