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Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.
Grimey Drawer

muscles like this? posted:

Six months seems a little long.

Yeah, but they specifically reference how long ago the Union Allied scandal broke in one of the later episodes, and it is several months.

Hmm. I can't find it now. I must be wrong then.

Snak fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Apr 27, 2015

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dj_clawson
Jan 12, 2004

We are all sinners in the eyes of these popsicle sticks.

Snak posted:

Yeah, but they specifically reference how long ago the Union Allied scandal broke in one of the later episodes, and it is several months.

Hmm. I can't find it now. I must be wrong then.

They also start wearing winter jackets in the last two episodes, which has to be to show the passage of time. Otherwise they wouldn't bother.

Solvency
Apr 28, 2008

Trade, sir! Discover it! This is you, this is a clue. Get a clue, discover trade!
I'd really love to see a Superior Foes of Spiderman series on Netflix. Marvel could use a comedic series about dumb villains, and I'd watch the poo poo out of it.

dj_clawson
Jan 12, 2004

We are all sinners in the eyes of these popsicle sticks.

Solvency posted:

I'd really love to see a Superior Foes of Spiderman series on Netflix. Marvel could use a comedic series about dumb villains, and I'd watch the poo poo out of it.

Marvel made a whole bunch of movies about dumb villains.

Heavy Metal
Sep 1, 2014

America's $1 Funnyman

Why don't we have a Savage Dragon series. Granted big green guy with a fin on his head might be tough on a TV/netflix budget, but hey it'd be great. Not sure how pricey Hellboy style makeup is. Or Judge Dredd, granted the sci-fi setting probably means it'd be too pricey. Love that Marvel is doing it so good, and DC has some fun stuff like Arrow. Would be cool to see some creator owned comics or indie books get more adaptations, lots of fun stuff to use.

BottledBodhisvata
Jul 26, 2013

by Lowtax

Snak posted:

i don't think he's supposed to be funny as in "make the viewer laugh out loud" but I think he's a convincing awkward guy who uses humor as a crutch. One of the things I like most about this show is that none of the characters are perfect people. Matt is a psycho who really likes to beat the poo poo out of people, but tells himself he's not, Karen is enthusiatic but naive and misguided, Foggy is overly optimistic and all too trusting. Matt and Wilson are both children who grew up with troubled childhoods, had to grow up fast, and have issues because of it. It sounds like Foggy had a pretty decent childhood and never had to grow up. If there was a character in this show that represented innocence, it would be Foggy.

Foggy and Karen, and almost certainly more Foggy, represent the humble human element that makes what Daredevil is fighting for all the more meaningful. I haven't finished the season yet, but the part where Foggy and Karen have a "date" and Fisk's bombs go off to destroy the Russians, which also does significant damage to Hell's Kitchen and puts Foggy in the hospital.. It's a really great moment that ties together the superhero plot stuff and the civilian plot stuff together. The biggest strength the show has over, say, Arrow, is that the non-super hero/villain characters have much more to do with the actions going on around them. Karen is trying to build a legal case against the villains, Foggy is bumbling but helpful, and the dangers that Daredevil faces are also dangers that can and do come around to harm them as well. There's no useless subplot of somebody battling alcoholism because the writers have nothing for that character to do this season.

The whole run feels like an actual comic story arc, with a linear story being told across several substantial installments.

Slow News Day
Jul 4, 2007

seniorservice posted:

Show is great, but both Foggy the character as written and the actor were terrible and kind of ruined those parts of the show for me. The character seemed like he was trying to hard to be witty and sarcastic but just came off as corny and cringey.

That was exactly the point of the character. Of the two of them, Matt is the charismatic and good-looking one who always gets the ladies, and Foggy is the dork with average looks who uses humor as a crutch to cover for his social awkwardness. Most people in this thread find that endearing but I guess if you're the kind of person who takes themselves way too seriously I can see how it would come across as cringe-worthy to you.

Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.
Grimey Drawer

enraged_camel posted:

That was exactly the point of the character. Of the two of them, Matt is the charismatic and good-looking one who always gets the ladies, and Foggy is the dork with average looks who uses humor as a crutch to cover for his social awkwardness. Most people in this thread find that endearing but I guess if you're the kind of person who takes themselves way too seriously I can see how it would come across as cringe-worthy to you.

Foggy is cringeworthy, but his behavior isn't directed to the viewer, it's directed towards the other characters. If this was supposed to be a comedy, it would be terrible. But it's not, so it's fine.

mikeraskol
May 3, 2006

Oh yeah. I was killing you.

Snak posted:

Foggy is cringeworthy.

Not really.

Slow News Day
Jul 4, 2007

Snak posted:

Foggy is cringeworthy

You are wrong.

Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.
Grimey Drawer
Jesus, I'm on your side. I just meant that I can easily see people cringing at Foggy's antics. He's my favorite character after Fisk.

Matt is the least interesting character on this show. Which is kind of okay. He's handled well.

Slow News Day
Jul 4, 2007

Snak posted:

Matt is the least interesting character on this show.

Wrong again.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

Don't you tell me my business again.

Snak posted:

Jesus, I'm on your side. I just meant that I can easily see people cringing at Foggy's antics. He's my favorite character after Fisk.

Matt is the least interesting character on this show. Which is kind of okay. He's handled well.

You're right, if I understand what you meant correctly.

His character is almost supposed to be dorky and cringe worthy if you read the comics. Dude is practically half goon. He walks around in bow ties, burping chile dogs, being fat, awkwardly hitting on women and making corny jokes. He's also altruistic, loyal, brave, honest and just a little greedy. He's written perfectly in the series. The dude that played him may not be the greatest actor amongst a great cast but he grew on me and being the weakest link in what's a pretty well acted series doesn't make him bad.

Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.
Grimey Drawer

enraged_camel posted:

Wrong again.

Well I'll stand by that opinion. But really I think it says more about the other characters than Matt. Basically Matt is the most vanilla character. His conflict so far has boiled down to "should I murder someone" and, predictable, being a non-Punisher Marvel character, he decided against it. He's never going to decide to stop brutalizing people and because of that the show's never going to serious examine how hosed up that is.

Who do you think is the least interesting character? Obviously I don't mean background characters.

edit: ^I'm not sure that I've read any Daredevil. I might have read one compilation way back when, but almost all of what I know about Daredevil was from his appearances in Spider-Man. I think Foggy's actor is pretty good. It's too early to tell if he's a really talented actor or just a good fit for the part. Either way, I have no complaints about any of the acting. I think they did a great job writing and casting this series, and it's made me really excited for the other Marvel Netflix shows.

Snak fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Apr 27, 2015

Slow News Day
Jul 4, 2007

Snak posted:

Well I'll stand by that opinion. But really I think it says more about the other characters than Matt. Basically Matt is the most vanilla character. His conflict so far has boiled down to "should I murder someone" and, predictable, being a non-Punisher Marvel character, he decided against it. He's never going to decide to stop brutalizing people and because of that the show's never going to serious examine how hosed up that is.

Who do you think is the least interesting character? Obviously I don't mean background characters.

I don't know who you categorize as "background character" but the main cast is listed here.

Of that list, Claire and Ben are the most uninteresting. They're basically typical archetypes: caregiver/nurse and overly nosy journalist, respectively. They aren't bad characters or anything. There just isn't anything deep about either of them, unlike with Matt.

Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.
Grimey Drawer

enraged_camel posted:

I don't know who you categorize as "background character" but the main cast is listed here.

Of that list, Claire and Ben are the most uninteresting. They're basically typical archetypes: caregiver/nurse and overly nosy journalist, respectively. They aren't bad characters or anything. There just isn't anything deep about either of them, unlike with Matt.

Yeah I could see both of those. I have forgotten that Claire exists several times. It feels like she's only in like 45(I looked it up) episodes? So I guess I wouldn't call her a main character, but Ben I would, and you could make a solid argument that he's more boring than Matt. I feel like Ben's struggle with who he is and his changing priorities is about as deep as Matt's though, we just don't spend quite as much time on it, and then he dies, so it's over.

BottledBodhisvata
Jul 26, 2013

by Lowtax

enraged_camel posted:

I don't know who you categorize as "background character" but the main cast is listed here.

Of that list, Claire and Ben are the most uninteresting. They're basically typical archetypes: caregiver/nurse and overly nosy journalist, respectively. They aren't bad characters or anything. There just isn't anything deep about either of them, unlike with Matt.

I dunno, Claire kind of got into the whole torture thing, which I'd hoped was going to showcase a bit of edge to her character, although she seems reduced to being another morality pet for Matty afterwards.

The Sharmat
Sep 5, 2011

by Lowtax

dj_clawson posted:

Marvel made a whole bunch of movies about dumb villains.

I'm the only one that liked and felt sympathy for the villain in Iron Man 3 on the whole planet. I mean, he was a giant rear end in a top hat. But still.


enraged_camel posted:

I don't know who you categorize as "background character" but the main cast is listed here.

Of that list, Claire and Ben are the most uninteresting. They're basically typical archetypes: caregiver/nurse and overly nosy journalist, respectively. They aren't bad characters or anything. There just isn't anything deep about either of them, unlike with Matt.

Not every character has to be a giant subversion of a common archetype to be "deep".

I was going to object to Claire on the basis of "She's totally ok with offering pointers on how to torture people" but then I remembered some of the times I've been hospitalized so carry on I guess.

AnimeJune
Dec 3, 2007

"We're dead. Bartowski's got a gun."

Snak posted:

I don't know what show you're watching, but...


I have to say - after seeing Stardust's Charlie Cox as Daredevil and Downton Abbey's Dan Stevens in The Guest, I am FULLY on board with this recent trend of taking soulful, adorably squishy British actors, throwing them in the Hollywood Rock Polisher for a few spins, and then putting them in movies as soulful, adorable killing machines.


LOOK AT THAT FACE.


Seriously, see The Guest if you haven't already.

BottledBodhisvata
Jul 26, 2013

by Lowtax

AnimeJune posted:

I have to say - after seeing Stardust's Charlie Cox as Daredevil and Downton Abbey's Dan Stevens in The Guest, I am FULLY on board with this recent trend of taking soulful, adorably squishy British actors, throwing them in the Hollywood Rock Polisher for a few spins, and then putting them in movies as soulful, adorable killing machines.


LOOK AT THAT FACE.


Seriously, see The Guest if you haven't already.

Holy poo poo, Matty was in Stardust?

Slow News Day
Jul 4, 2007

The Sharmat posted:

Not every character has to be a giant subversion of a common archetype to be "deep".

This doesn't make sense. Is that not the definition of a deep character? Someone who is multi-faceted and enigmatic and has more than one thing going for them, some of which subvert or outright conflict their apparent archetype?

That's why Fisk is such a great character, for instance. He's a ruthless kingpin who is also lonely and socially awkward, which results in conflicts between his archetypical role (i.e. to commit crimes, to kill people, etc.) and other elements of his persona (e.g. his longing for Vanessa).

Aphrodite
Jun 27, 2006

There are multi-faceted archetypes.

Film has been around a long time.

surc
Aug 17, 2004

enraged_camel posted:

Of that list, Claire and Ben are the most uninteresting. They're basically typical archetypes: caregiver/nurse and overly nosy journalist, respectively. They aren't bad characters or anything. There just isn't anything deep about either of them, unlike with Matt.
Do you not actually watch other action/crime television shows, or did you just not actually watch Daredevil? A "side-main" character like Ben or Claire usually has to survive for multiple seasons before they get any time on screen that is not directly interacting with the main character, or any lines that aren't basically just the most obvious possible response.

All that stuff they did in this show where they.... took time to specifically go into the character's motivations and gave them human flaws and strengths is generally considered "depth".

BottledBodhisvata
Jul 26, 2013

by Lowtax
God drat it this show has honestly great writing. There's a few hokey bits but every episode has some awesome scenes. The Priest guy in Episode 9 is especially excellent.

EDIT: Fisk is so loving great in this, it's ludicrous.

EDIT EDIT: Oh my god is this a Doctor McNinja reference!?!?!?

BottledBodhisvata fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Apr 28, 2015

seniorservice
Jun 18, 2004

Wubba Lubba Dub Dub!

enraged_camel posted:

That was exactly the point of the character. Of the two of them, Matt is the charismatic and good-looking one who always gets the ladies, and Foggy is the dork with average looks who uses humor as a crutch to cover for his social awkwardness. Most people in this thread find that endearing but I guess if you're the kind of person who takes themselves way too seriously I can see how it would come across as cringe-worthy to you.

I get that the character is supposed to accomplish that role of the awkward but funny friend who the audience finds endearing but gets poo poo on in the show. My point is that the show is unsuccessful at creating this dynamic and it is partly due to the actor and partly due to the writing (I personally think the actor is more to blame). Some of that is a lot of what he says just comes off as forced and corny and not funny i.e the writing. Not only that, but Foggy doesn't seem to have a problem getting the girl anyway. Karen flirts back with him constantly, and his hot ex-girlfriend at his old law firm is constantly trying to gently caress him, which I think is kind of inconsistent with what his character is supposed to be (again, this is inconsistent/sloppy writing). I think a better actor might be able to pull it off, but for me, the dynamic they're trying to establish between Foggy, Matt, and Karen doesn't quite work.

It's great cause just about everything else in the show works really well: the way Kingpin is developed as a multidimensional character instead of a cartoon villain, the complicated politics between all the supervillains is the show, Matt's internal conflict and origin story told through flashbacks, the portrayal of Ben Urich and the fading relevance of print media, believable and well choreographed fight scenes, chemistry between Matt and Claire etc, etc. In a show that gets so much right, it's hard to not notice when they get something so egregiously wrong.

The Sharmat
Sep 5, 2011

by Lowtax

seniorservice posted:

Some of that is a lot of what he says just comes off as forced and corny and not funny i.e the writing.

I think that's how it's supposed to come off though.

Slow News Day
Jul 4, 2007

The Sharmat posted:

I think that's how it's supposed to come off though.

That's what I tried to tell him, I don't think he's listening.

seniorservice
Jun 18, 2004

Wubba Lubba Dub Dub!

The Sharmat posted:

I think that's how it's supposed to come off though.

If that's the case, the other characters would probably react like Foggy said something forced and corny. Instead they act like he said something funny and say something equally corny and forced back to him. The difference is the other actors he's playing off of are better than he is. I never really get that "Oh Foggy" eye roll from other characters, which is exactly what you would expect when someone says something socially awkward. Instead the dialogue between Foggy and Karen/Matt seems to be trying for witty banter at times and to me fails because sometimes the dialogue isn't written as smart as it thinks it is, and sometimes the delivery is terrible.

Phylodox
Mar 30, 2006



College Slice

seniorservice posted:

I never really get that "Oh Foggy" eye roll from other characters, which is exactly what you would expect when someone says something socially awkward.

Because it's not a sit-com. These characters genuinely care about each other and are friends. When one of your friends says something corny or awkward, do you roll your eyes and treat them like idiots? The dynamic between Foggy and Matt is one of extreme closeness and trust, which is why Foggy is so devastated when he finds out Matt has been lying to him.

BottledBodhisvata
Jul 26, 2013

by Lowtax

Phylodox posted:

Because it's not a sit-com. These characters genuinely care about each other and are friends. When one of your friends says something corny or awkward, do you roll your eyes and treat them like idiots? The dynamic between Foggy and Matt is one of extreme closeness and trust, which is why Foggy is so devastated when he finds out Matt has been lying to him.

Exactly. Anyone who thinks Foggy's reaction to discovering Matt's secret is somehow contrived is insane. The scenes between them are fantastic, and Foggy's actor nails it out of the park.

mikeraskol
May 3, 2006

Oh yeah. I was killing you.

seniorservice posted:

I get that the character is supposed to accomplish that role of the awkward but funny friend who the audience finds endearing but gets poo poo on in the show. My point is that the show is unsuccessful at creating this dynamic and it is partly due to the actor and partly due to the writing (I personally think the actor is more to blame). Some of that is a lot of what he says just comes off as forced and corny and not funny i.e the writing. Not only that, but Foggy doesn't seem to have a problem getting the girl anyway. Karen flirts back with him constantly, and his hot ex-girlfriend at his old law firm is constantly trying to gently caress him, which I think is kind of inconsistent with what his character is supposed to be (again, this is inconsistent/sloppy writing). I think a better actor might be able to pull it off, but for me, the dynamic they're trying to establish between Foggy, Matt, and Karen doesn't quite work.

I like how you project an archetype for the type of character you think Foggy is supposed to be, and then complain when Foggy doesn't fit exactly in your own made up archetype and call it bad writing. Good stuff.

Foggy is just a normal, caring person. Sometimes he makes funny jokes. Sometimes he says corny things. There are women in the world that like him. There are women that ask him to feel their face, devastating him.

BottledBodhisvata
Jul 26, 2013

by Lowtax

mikeraskol posted:

I like how you project an archetype for the type of character you think Foggy is supposed to be, and then complain when Foggy doesn't fit exactly in your own made up archetype and call it bad writing. Good stuff.

Foggy is just a normal, caring person. Sometimes he makes funny jokes. Sometimes he says corny things. There are women in the world that like him. There are women that ask him to feel their face, devastating him.

It's almost as if teevee shows don't have a lot of characters who are actually written like human beings. It's another thing that makes this show great--it elevates all of its characters beyond their archetypes, even if only for a last moment.

Phylodox
Mar 30, 2006



College Slice
Foggy succeeds precisely because he doesn't fall into that stupid as poo poo sit-com stereotype of the goofy best friend. He's a competent lawyer and a charming young man. He feigns goofiness and awkwardness because it's disarming. You don't get to be a good lawyer without learning some charm. The fact that he's constantly compared to Matt Murdock, who is a loving superhero, is the only reason he seems like such a clumsy nebbish.

Aphrodite
Jun 27, 2006

Phylodox posted:

Foggy succeeds precisely because he doesn't fall into that stupid as poo poo sit-com stereotype of the goofy best friend.

Interestingly, that's also why some people don't like him in the first few episodes. Until around the explosions, he's just sitcoming around.

seniorservice
Jun 18, 2004

Wubba Lubba Dub Dub!

Phylodox posted:

Because it's not a sit-com. These characters genuinely care about each other and are friends. When one of your friends says something corny or awkward, do you roll your eyes and treat them like idiots? The dynamic between Foggy and Matt is one of extreme closeness and trust, which is why Foggy is so devastated when he finds out Matt has been lying to him.

I didn't say I expected it to be a sitcom. Sometimes it seems either the writers aren't sure what they're going for or the actor has poor delivery, because the characters aren't acting like Foggy is saying something corny or awkward, but they are acting like he's saying something legitimately humourous and respond in kind.

But yeah if one of my friends says something corny or awkward, I will absolutely bust their balls about it. I wouldn't say I'd treat them like an idiot, but I'd definitely point out they said something weird or tried to be funny and failed (preferably extremely gently, depending on the friend), otherwise it gets awkward for everyone when nobody laughs. None of the characters in this show are interacting with Foggy like that; instead it's coming across as forced witty banter for me. Honestly some of the dialogue is written like this for Matt as well but the actor is just better at pulling it off and it's not as distracting. This is why I think it's mostly the actor who play Foggy who isn't doing it for me.

Aphrodite posted:

Interestingly, that's also why some people don't like him in the first few episodes. Until around the explosions, he's just sitcoming around.

I think this is the main issue for me. It's like scenes with Foggy turn into a really unfunny episode of the big bang theory until he finds out about Matt which is the only time he is interesting in the show for me.

seniorservice fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Apr 28, 2015

AnimeJune
Dec 3, 2007

"We're dead. Bartowski's got a gun."

Phylodox posted:

Foggy succeeds precisely because he doesn't fall into that stupid as poo poo sit-com stereotype of the goofy best friend. He's a competent lawyer and a charming young man. He feigns goofiness and awkwardness because it's disarming. You don't get to be a good lawyer without learning some charm. The fact that he's constantly compared to Matt Murdock, who is a loving superhero, is the only reason he seems like such a clumsy nebbish.
Exactly. If we *have* to pick a trope, he's the Xander - of course he's going to look like a schlub next to the Dread Pirate Roberts of Hell's Kitchen (compare Xander to Buffy) but that's because he's a regular person, and the audience's reactions are meant to be filtered through his eyes because he's the regular guy reacting to irregular events for the first time.

Foggy won me over in the first episode when Matt blurts out his "We only defend the innocent" nonsense and Foggy's like, "....or everyone, AS THE LAW REQUIRES." Yes, we have Murdock spouting his superhuman mantra of defending the innocent, but we also have Foggy injecting some much-needed reality into the mix to tone it down.

...and this is making me imagine what Foggy's "The Zeppo" episode could be like. JUST THINK ABOUT IT.

BottledBodhisvata
Jul 26, 2013

by Lowtax

seniorservice posted:

I didn't say I expected it to be a sitcom. Sometimes it seems either the writers aren't sure what they're going for or the actor has poor delivery, because the characters aren't acting like Foggy is saying something corny or awkward, but they are acting like he's saying something legitimately humourous and respond in kind.

I see the problem. See, Foggy is saying humorous things so I can see why you were confused.

And he's also a swell loving guy, even if he is a dork.

dj_clawson
Jan 12, 2004

We are all sinners in the eyes of these popsicle sticks.
Foggy got a LOT more respect (and screen time) in the show than he used to in the comics, which I'm happy about. The Foggy/Matt friendship is one of the most consistent relationships in the Marvel universe. Even when they're mad at each other or doing other things, it isn't because of the prince of Atlantis brainwashing one of them, it's because they've grown apart or they have different feelings on ordinary subjects, but inevitably they team up because they work well together. I liked that the show made a point of showing Foggy being an actual lawyer who knows his stuff, even if he feels differently about how to use it than Matt. His presence also reminds us that Matt is a lawyer by day, and that this is kind of a crime show, and it has things like clients and charges and trials and ordinary office concerns to ground us after Matt gets nearly sliced in half by an impractical ninja weapon wielded by Player 2 Sub-Zero. The show wanted to be grounded, and Foggy Nelson did a lot of that work. He deserves credit for that.

seniorservice
Jun 18, 2004

Wubba Lubba Dub Dub!

BottledBodhisvata posted:

I see the problem. See, Foggy is saying humorous things so I can see why you were confused.

And he's also a swell loving guy, even if he is a dork.

Agree to disagree. Stuff like "Avocados at law!" is so cringy to me that it's tempting to fast forward through it.

seniorservice fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Apr 28, 2015

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BottledBodhisvata
Jul 26, 2013

by Lowtax
^^^^--- You must be a blast at parties.

dj_clawson posted:

Foggy got a LOT more respect (and screen time) in the show than he used to in the comics, which I'm happy about. The Foggy/Matt friendship is one of the most consistent relationships in the Marvel universe. Even when they're mad at each other or doing other things, it isn't because of the prince of Atlantis brainwashing one of them, it's because they've grown apart or they have different feelings on ordinary subjects, but inevitably they team up because they work well together. I liked that the show made a point of showing Foggy being an actual lawyer who knows his stuff, even if he feels differently about how to use it than Matt. His presence also reminds us that Matt is a lawyer by day, and that this is kind of a crime show, and it has things like clients and charges and trials and ordinary office concerns to ground us after Matt gets nearly sliced in half by an impractical ninja weapon wielded by Player 2 Sub-Zero. The show wanted to be grounded, and Foggy Nelson did a lot of that work. He deserves credit for that.

You will not disrespect Dan McNinja in such a way.

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