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Pissflaps
Oct 20, 2002

by VideoGames

a pipe smoking dog posted:

I've been thinking more about the right wing argument that labour can't be in charge if they're not the largest party, wouldn't a better attack be to point out that Labour-SNP government is going to be undemocratic because they're going to get well less than 40% of the vote?

What's special about 40%?

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a pipe smoking dog
Jan 25, 2010

"haha, dogs can't smoke!"

Pissflaps posted:

What's special about 40%?

It's just not a great mandate is all, the SNP are going to end up with a disproportionately large numbers of seats and I'm surprised that's not being used against them.

Fans
Jun 27, 2013

A reptile dysfunction

a pipe smoking dog posted:

It's just not a great mandate is all, the SNP are going to end up with a disproportionately large numbers of seats and I'm surprised that's not being used against them.

Be pretty rich for the Conservatives or Labour to argue that our current system leads to unfair weighting in representation

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

Cerv posted:

but it's still a nonsense stunt.
any government wanting to raise one of those taxes could get the votes to repeal this gimmick law just as easily.

Yeah that's what I don't get, parliament can do whatever it wants, including contradict itself and repeal laws it just passed, and if they can pass the law in the first place they don't need to pass it, and if the law was in a position to affect an opposing party they could repeal it.

Weirdest way of phrasing it I've heard.

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

a pipe smoking dog posted:

It's just not a great mandate is all, the SNP are going to end up with a disproportionately large numbers of seats and I'm surprised that's not being used against them.

Maybe because it also draws attention to the fact Scotland is over represented at Westminster, and it wouldn't go down well north of the border to bring it up? Hard to see why the Conservatives haven't bothered though, it's not like they've been trying to win friends and influence people in Scotland as it is.

Pissflaps
Oct 20, 2002

by VideoGames

a pipe smoking dog posted:

It's just not a great mandate is all, the SNP are going to end up with a disproportionately large numbers of seats and I'm surprised that's not being used against them.

Labour won a majority with just 35.2% of the vote in 2005.

The SNP's Scottish localisation is already being used heavily by the Tories.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

Party Boat posted:

Developers from Tel Aviv illegally bulldozing buildings? Well I never.

:vince:

V. Illych L. posted:

well, yes, it does. do you think it's necessarily bad, though?

Brand's fanbase are basically people who reject the modern concept of respectability as simply another part of the establishment, which is perfectly legitimate in my view. Brand pretty much clearly takes the piss out of this with his weird clothes and his extremely individual affectations. It's disturbing, but it's easy to see where he's coming from, and hard to simply dismiss it.

He's a bit unsubtle about it though, I mean, it's way more fun to adopt the image of respectability and then break it when people don't expect it. Plays hell with people's expectations and causes minor mental trauma to some. It's ace.

Noxville
Dec 7, 2003

Prince John posted:

Maybe because it also draws attention to the fact Scotland is over represented at Westminster, and it wouldn't go down well north of the border to bring it up? Hard to see why the Conservatives haven't bothered though, it's not like they've been trying to win friends and influence people in Scotland as it is.

They're not overrepresented, Scotland has just under 10% of the populace and just under 10% of the MPs. It's the SNP that would be overrepresented and that's due to their dominance of Scotland turning 55% of the vote into 100% of the seats.

For that you can blame FPTP, of course.

Noxville fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Apr 29, 2015

Lord of the Llamas
Jul 9, 2002

EULER'VE TO SEE IT VENN SOMEONE CALLS IT THE WRONG THING AND PROVOKES MY WRATH

Prince John posted:

Maybe because it also draws attention to the fact Scotland is over represented at Westminster, and it wouldn't go down well north of the border to bring it up? Hard to see why the Conservatives haven't bothered though, it's not like they've been trying to win friends and influence people in Scotland as it is.

Scotland is no more over represented relative to variation of other regions in the UK.

Edit: The actual number is about 8.3% of population to about 9.1% of MPs.

We can sort the constituency list by population here.

Lord of the Llamas fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Apr 29, 2015

notaspy
Mar 22, 2009

Pissflaps posted:

Labour won a majority with just 35.2% of the vote in 2005.

The SNP's Scottish localisation is already being used heavily by the Tories.

But going back to at least the late 80s the government of the day has commanded a vote share of about 40%, which seems a fair measure of the nations mind under fptp

Pissflaps
Oct 20, 2002

by VideoGames

notaspy posted:

But going back to at least the late 80s the government of the day has commanded a vote share of about 40%, which seems a fair measure of the nations mind under fptp

It's precisely because we have FPTP that the vote share is irrelevant.

baka kaba
Jul 19, 2003

PLEASE ASK ME, THE SELF-PROFESSED NO #1 PAUL CATTERMOLE FAN IN THE SOMETHING AWFUL S-CLUB 7 MEGATHREAD, TO NAME A SINGLE SONG BY HIS EXCELLENT NU-METAL SIDE PROJECT, SKUA, AND IF I CAN'T PLEASE TELL ME TO
EAT SHIT

Yeah exactly, FTFP is the most 'ah gently caress it, that'll do' voting system you can think of

Pissflaps
Oct 20, 2002

by VideoGames
Poor old Nick Clegg

V. Illych L.
Apr 11, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

Pissflaps posted:

Poor old Nick Clegg



thanet south is where Farage is standing, yeah?

Pissflaps
Oct 20, 2002

by VideoGames

V. Illych L. posted:

thanet south is where Farage is standing, yeah?

Yeah.

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

This election is turning out to be far more enjoyable than I would have ever expected.

V. Illych L.
Apr 11, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

what's South Swindon signify and why have all the lib dem voters seemingly gone over to UKIP there?

winegums
Dec 21, 2012


V. Illych L. posted:


Brand's fanbase are basically people who reject the modern concept of respectability as simply another part of the establishment, which is perfectly legitimate in my view. Brand pretty much clearly takes the piss out of this with his weird clothes and his extremely individual affectations. It's disturbing, but it's easy to see where he's coming from, and hard to simply dismiss it.




No matter how anti-establishment you are, you can never be anti-establishment enough for some people :tinfoil:

Also what does "The Trews" mean. If it's a portmanteau of "true news" I'm going to go to walk to Camden and personally kill and eat Russell Brand. It's possible to be anti-establishment and not a preening cock.

notaspy
Mar 22, 2009

winegums posted:



No matter how anti-establishment you are, you can never be anti-establishment enough for some people :tinfoil:

Also what does "The Trews" mean. If it's a portmanteau of "true news" I'm going to go to walk to Camden and personally kill and eat Russell Brand. It's possible to be anti-establishment and not a preening cock.

Get your knife and fork ready!

V. Illych L.
Apr 11, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

winegums posted:



No matter how anti-establishment you are, you can never be anti-establishment enough for some people :tinfoil:

Also what does "The Trews" mean. If it's a portmanteau of "true news" I'm going to go to walk to Camden and personally kill and eat Russell Brand. It's possible to be anti-establishment and not a preening cock.

you're going to have to walk to camden and personally kill and eat russel brand, i'm afraid

hello mi5 this is a joke

Cerv
Sep 14, 2004

This is a silly post with little news value.

he lives in shoreditch though

Yggdrassil
Mar 11, 2012

RAKANISHU!
South Thanet is UKIP's Achilees heel. Take it away from them, Farage resigns. At least, that's what he said...

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

winegums posted:

Also what does "The Trews" mean. If it's a portmanteau of "true news" I'm going to go to walk to Camden and personally kill and eat Russell Brand. It's possible to be anti-establishment and not a preening cock.

Don't forget to listen to the little jingle here to really work up an appetite!

Coohoolin
Aug 5, 2012

Oor Coohoolie.
Ed Miliband likes to say "ordinary" a lot.

Tbh I think he's coming across well in this interview, he seems personal and interested and genuine. Still don't buy him saying "ain't" as a natural way of talking.

shrike82
Jun 11, 2005

What are the odds of Clegg losing his seat and what impact does that have on the LDs?

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

shrike82 posted:

What are the odds of Clegg losing his seat and what impact does that have on the LDs?

Constitutionally he has to resign I think it was posted earlier.

Coohoolin
Aug 5, 2012

Oor Coohoolie.

Prince John posted:

Don't forget to listen to the little jingle here to really work up an appetite!

Actually I think that's the Rubberbandits who are Cool and Good.

Junkenstein
Oct 22, 2003

Russell Brand posted:

...if the Tory party are given any longer in charge of this country, could drive it into the ground, the very fabric of society itself being torn apart by them and the vested interests of powerful elites.

If only there was some system in place that allowed people like him to register their opinion on matters like that......

Cerv
Sep 14, 2004

This is a silly post with little news value.

Junkenstein posted:

If only there was some system in place that allowed people like him to register their opinion on matters like that......

by voting in one of Labour's safest seats? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackney_South_and_Shoreditch_%28UK_Parliament_constituency%29
you're unintentionally making his point for him. that his vote has no power to influence the formation of the government.

Zephro
Nov 23, 2000

I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...

shrike82 posted:

What are the odds of Clegg losing his seat and what impact does that have on the LDs?
Technically nothing if he loses his seat, there's no law saying a party leader has to be a sitting MP. For instance: Nigel Farage, Natalie Bennett, Nicola Sturgeon (sort of).

In practice he'd almost certainly have to resign as leader.

Junkenstein
Oct 22, 2003

Cerv posted:


you're unintentionally making his point for him. that his vote has no power to influence the formation of the government.

Doesn't mean he should be encouraging others to not vote.

Hoops
Aug 19, 2005


A Black Mark For Retarded Posting

Zephro posted:

Technically nothing if he loses his seat, there's no law saying a party leader has to be a sitting MP. For instance: Nigel Farage, Natalie Bennett, Nicola Sturgeon (sort of).

In practice he'd almost certainly have to resign as leader.
I think the Lib Dem charter specifically says the leader has to be an MP actually, someone linked it the other day.

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

Zephro posted:

Technically nothing if he loses his seat, there's no law saying a party leader has to be a sitting MP.

Sadly, that's not how the Lib Dems roll:


I guess as long as he won the leadership election, he could theoretically survive.

Edit: vv Thank you! I feel quite bad about the Lib Dem's implosion actually - I really like the way they run and govern themselves democratically and it's something that other parties could learn from.

Prince John fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Apr 29, 2015

kapparomeo
Apr 19, 2011

Some say his extreme-right links are clearly known, even in the fascist capitalist imperialist Murdochist press...

Zephro posted:

Technically nothing if he loses his seat, there's no law saying a party leader has to be a sitting MP. For instance: Nigel Farage, Natalie Bennett, Nicola Sturgeon (sort of).

In practice he'd almost certainly have to resign as leader.

It's different in the Lib Dems' case though, their "Federal Constitution" says that the party leader specifically must be a Commons MP. In addition to Article 10 quoted by Prince John above it's also governed by Article 9: "The Parliamentary Party in the House of Commons shall consist of all Members of that House in receipt of the Party’s whip. Its Leader shall be the Leader of the Party elected as provided in Article 10."

kapparomeo fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Apr 29, 2015

Fluo
May 25, 2007

Hoops posted:

I think the Lib Dem charter specifically says the leader has to be an MP actually, someone linked it the other day.

What if they have no MPs. :unsmigghh:

Love when national achieve stuff comes out.
Secret Service officials discussed smearing Labour party in 1920s. Papers show top UK intelligence committee, whose members included Winston Churchill, discussed ‘anti-red activities’ following Zinoviev letter incident.

Lord of the Llamas
Jul 9, 2002

EULER'VE TO SEE IT VENN SOMEONE CALLS IT THE WRONG THING AND PROVOKES MY WRATH

V. Illych L. posted:

what's South Swindon signify and why have all the lib dem voters seemingly gone over to UKIP there?

It's just a close Tory/Labour marginal and it's more likely that UKIP votes came mostly from the Tories/Labour but the ex Lib Dem votes made up for it, giving the appearance of a Lib Dem UKIP swing.

a pipe smoking dog
Jan 25, 2010

"haha, dogs can't smoke!"

Cerv posted:

by voting in one of Labour's safest seats? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackney_South_and_Shoreditch_%28UK_Parliament_constituency%29
you're unintentionally making his point for him. that his vote has no power to influence the formation of the government.

I really feel like Scotland puts paid to the idea that voting in a safe seat is pointless.

freebooter
Jul 7, 2009

As long as turnout remains so low - what was it last time, 55% or something? - you can't really argue that voting in a safe seat is pointless.

Zephro
Nov 23, 2000

I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...

Hoops posted:

I think the Lib Dem charter specifically says the leader has to be an MP actually, someone linked it the other day.
Ah, fair enough then.

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Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

Assuming a majority is out of reach, does anybody feel Miliband would be better served by not forming a government? It must be difficult to avoid being tarnished as weak/ineffective if you're having to engage in negotiations on a vote-by-vote basis, having ruled out a formal coalition with the SNP. I wonder what they think the impact will be on the 2020 election.

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