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Angela Christine posted:None of that would help if all vampires get possessed by evil spirits This seems to be just how vampirism works in the OOtS world, so I seriously doubt we'll ever see Belkar as one. First off it wouldn't be Belkar, and secondly it seems like it would sort of lessen the impact of what Durkon is going through.
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May 5, 2015 18:39
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Zoe posted:No I remember that conversation. He actually did say that, back during one of those endless Familicide debates I believe, and yes it's complete bullshit. The more I learn about him the more he reminds me of the male lead in an Aaron Sorkin show.
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May 5, 2015 18:44
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Zoe posted:This seems to be just how vampirism works in the OOtS world, so I seriously doubt we'll ever see Belkar as one. First off it wouldn't be Belkar, and secondly it seems like it would sort of lessen the impact of what Durkon is going through. Durkon is not a sexy shoeless god of war.  Belkar would just punt the invading spirit to the curb.
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May 5, 2015 18:47
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sebmojo posted:Good stories are about people, not about cool worlds and neato magic systems, I think is his point. Yeah, I don't really see how it makes you a douche to pint this out, seems like a pretty obvious thing to me.
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May 5, 2015 18:50
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In a surprising plot twist, the 'Last Breath' prophecy will be fulfilled when Belkar becomes another sentient flesh golem. The whole Crystal thing was just to get us ready for it.
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May 5, 2015 18:52
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sebmojo posted:Good stories are about people, not about cool worlds and neato magic systems, I think is his point. But you *can* have both, ala Fate/Stay Night.
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May 5, 2015 18:53
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You can have an interesting setting as part of a good story, but an interesting setting does not in itself indicate a good story.
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May 5, 2015 19:04
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The key word in what he said is 'meaningful', I think. And with that word there, I'd agree with him. A story's not meaningful if it can't be related out to real life situations. It might be good, and fun, but it's not gonna be meaningful.
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May 5, 2015 19:07
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Angela Christine posted:On the plus side it wouldn't change his personality much. He's already "use the skulls of your enemies as a litter box" evil. After dealing with The Mark and whatnot he's even developed enough enlightened self interest to keep his evil impulses under control, to the point some readers started wondering if he's really still evil (he is). He understands how to suppress strong evil impulses better than any of them. I'm wondering if Durkon is a special case vampire. The combo of being turned (IE dying) and being a dwarf(under Hel's domain) gave her a chance to take control. Hel hasnt been able to have any clerics up to this point. Suddenly, a high level dwarf cleric dies, but the body is still animated. When opportunity knocks and all that. Maybe Malak WAS malak, and other vampires are themselves.
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May 5, 2015 19:13
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World Famous Whore posted:In a surprising plot twist, the 'Last Breath' prophecy will be fulfilled when Belkar becomes another sentient flesh golem. The whole Crystal thing was just to get us ready for it. No no, once Durkon has inexplicably ditched the party, he'll be replaced by a wizened, mysterious old halfling who doles out sage advice and rear end-kickings in equal measure. When the party catches up to Durkula by complete coincidence, he naturally assumes they're following him, and plots to kill V (who had caught on to him at this point) in the dead of night, only to be foiled by the halfling, who sacrifices his life to save V. As he draws his last breath, he utters: "This makes us even... Ears." The bit about savoring his next birthday cake and not planning a 401k are just red herrings. His birthday cake just happens to be the best cake he'll ever have, and he's going to spend his entire life adventuring. Also time travel is possible. EDIT: Johnny Aztec posted:I'm wondering if Durkon is a special case vampire. The combo of being turned (IE dying) and being a dwarf(under Hel's domain) gave her a chance to take control. Hel hasnt been able to have any clerics up to this point. Suddenly, a high level dwarf cleric dies, but the body is still animated. When opportunity knocks and all that. Yurkon says that the process "takes a few months," so he's pretty clearly not the only case. Malak's refusal to be raised also said that he was not the same person as the snakeman whose body he inhabited, about as clearly as he could have without spoiling that the same would happen to Durkon. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 19:23 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 19:17
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MikeJF posted:The key word in what he said is 'meaningful', I think. And with that word there, I'd agree with him. A story's not meaningful if it can't be related out to real life situations. It might be good, and fun, but it's not gonna be meaningful. Meaningful, I'll grant you, but the part I took issue with was the 'petty escapism' line. I don't think any story, be it a book or a movie or a webcomic should have it's value ONLY determined by how much it has to say on Big Issues like racism or genocide, and how they are bad. Basically what I got from reading the full post is that Rich is is one of those people that wouldn't be able to just enjoy the Lord of the Rings for it's own sake if they couldn't point to the orcs and go 'oh, those are Nazis, and the scouring of the Shire is symbolic of industrialization and etc. etc.' Which is weird because Rich does write such great characters, he just apparently thinks anytime they're not making an important statement about something they're meaningless?
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May 5, 2015 19:42
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Zoe posted:Meaningful, I'll grant you, but the part I took issue with was the 'petty escapism' line. I don't think any story, be it a book or a movie or a webcomic should have it's value ONLY determined by how much it has to say on Big Issues like racism or genocide, and how they are bad. Uh, making a story meaningful (by creating something of substance that people are capable of actually relating to) and being inspired by how people actually interact and behave and feel in real life is not the same as using allegory to pontificate about some random morale issue. I have no idea why you are equating the two but I'm willing to bet you and Rich have two very different definitions of what meaningful means in this context. Allegory has nothing to do with it.
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May 5, 2015 20:06
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It's really dumb, of course, because everything is political. Art doesn't need to have an explicit goal of moralizing to have a point, and even the trashiest escapism is art that reflects a unique worldview.
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May 5, 2015 20:06
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"Being able to relate to things in the real world" doesn't necessarily mean "big and important". We can enjoy the Lord of the Rings in non-allegorical terms because we feel the weight of Frodo's burden and admire Sam's devotion, and all that, and those are things in the real world. I think he's railing against more particularly people who are loudly concerned with the imagined systems of a fantasy world as opposed to the characters or the emotions those systems are in service of. There's a lot of those in his audience, after all! To put it another way, it seems to be an indictment of the kind of person who is overbearingly interested in whether a fireball is 3d6 or 4d8 damage, to the exclusion of what it means that someone is shooting a fireball at someone else.
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May 5, 2015 20:07
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Kajeesus posted:No no, once Durkon has inexplicably ditched the party, he'll be replaced by a wizened, mysterious old halfling who doles out sage advice and rear end-kickings in equal measure. When the party catches up to Durkula by complete coincidence, he naturally assumes they're following him, and plots to kill V (who had caught on to him at this point) in the dead of night, only to be foiled by the halfling, who sacrifices his life to save V. As he draws his last breath, he utters: "This makes us even... Ears." On the other hand this is contradicted by Malack really identifying with his past snakeman self as *his* past self and his brother's as *his* brothers. Durkon's vampire spirit doesn't hold a single connection to Durkon's self and is 100% faking it and doesn't care about them beyond their role in Hel's plot. Malack had a sentimental connection to his past.
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May 5, 2015 20:08
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Android Blues posted:"Being able to relate to things in the real world" doesn't necessarily mean "big and important". We can enjoy the Lord of the Rings in non-allegorical terms because we feel the weight of Frodo's burden and admire Sam's devotion, and all that, and those are things in the real world. I think he's railing against more particularly people who are loudly concerned with the imagined systems of a fantasy world as opposed to the characters or the emotions those systems are in service of. There's a lot of those in his audience, after all! Yeah, we need to remember that Rich is responding to the TVTrope spergs on his forum, not normal, well-adjusted (more or less) readers like ourselves.
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May 5, 2015 20:17
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There is no meaningful difference between Rich's statement and Bujold's more articulated theory of what makes SFF a distinct category, specifically how it is distinct from a generic male teen power fantasy.
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May 5, 2015 20:33
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JuniperCake posted:Uh, making a story meaningful (by creating something of substance that people are capable of actually relating to) and being inspired by how people actually interact and behave and feel in real life is not the same as using allegory to pontificate about some random morale issue.   Still disagree with the petty escapism line, and not saying he's wrong about the others but he does obviously CARE a lot about random moral issues in a fantasy setting. And rereading that first post, yeah he probably does really hate Tolkien. But mostly I'm just sighing at the thought of another month long wait for an update so we might as well have something to debate about here in the meantime... Zoe fucked around with this message at 20:44 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 20:41
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The OotS forums were where I first realized that certain people get really mad about fantasy racism in D&D. Also: The Giant posted:There is absolutely zero difference between Malack and Durkon's vampirizations, with the sole exception that Hel made the spirit sitting in Durkon's head while Nergal made the one that was sitting in Malack's. Hel is able to put that spirit into Durkon's body because of the physical vampirization process that Malack enacts on Durkon's corpse, which opens a door to Negative Energy and traps Durkon's spirit inside it. Which would also be true of any other vampire created from a person who fell under the Northern Pantheon's domain, though she wouldn't take a personal interest in just any person because they wouldn't be a powerful cleric.
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May 5, 2015 21:14
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Wasn't there a bunch of rage about how OOTS vampires work ruined Malak's character, or something like that?
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May 5, 2015 21:18
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Raenir Salazar posted:On the other hand this is contradicted by Malack really identifying with his past snakeman self as *his* past self and his brother's as *his* brothers. Durkon's vampire spirit doesn't hold a single connection to Durkon's self and is 100% faking it and doesn't care about them beyond their role in Hel's plot. Malack had a sentimental connection to his past. I think that's just part of the process, normally. The vampire fakes being Malack to the point where it doesn't need to consult the trapped soul at all, at which point it probably thinks of itself as being Malack to some degree. He also ponders why he didn't feel anything at all when he killed his brothers, which would be because they weren't his brothers when he did it. He gradually forgot that he'd supplanted another Malack centuries ago. It had to be deliberately vague for the twist to show up later, as well. EDIT: Beaten by a Giant quote. I guess it's not clear if Malack actually believed himself to be the same person as the snakeman shaman, but that's my reading. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 21:40 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 21:36
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In Dracula, the soul is suppressed and trapped by an evil version of itself that desires only blood and dominion, etc, but it's very much still the same "person", just a twisted iteration of them. The vampire-as-yeerk thing is an interesting twist.
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May 5, 2015 21:49
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Kajeesus posted:I think that's just part of the process, normally. The vampire fakes being Malack to the point where it doesn't need to consult the trapped soul at all, at which point it probably thinks of itself as being Malack to some degree. He also ponders why he didn't feel anything at all when he killed his brothers, which would be because they weren't his brothers when he did it. He gradually forgot that he'd supplanted another Malack centuries ago. It had to be deliberately vague for the twist to show up later, as well. I know that quote, I find it very disappointing.
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May 5, 2015 21:56
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Kajeesus posted:
Hell, im not the same person I was 5 years ago, let alone 200 years ago. Also, I find this method of vampirsm to be really really lame. " Oh it's not him, it's an evil spirit. I prefer the idea of it being 100% that person, only with a new set of desires and urges. You wouldn't have the chemical reactions and hormones guiding you. Over time, you'd become more divorced from the living person you were. I like the idea of the little justification you give yourself over time, just eroding whatever moral framework you had in life. I feel it adds more nuance to the character, and maybe Durkon having to live with what he did while a Vampire.
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May 5, 2015 22:00
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Zoe posted:
Actually Tolkien has wrote extensively on how he really wanted to redo Orcs as he wasn't satisfied with how 2D they were. So Rich probably doesn't hate Tolkien.
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May 5, 2015 22:17
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Johnny Aztec posted:Also, I find this method of vampirsm to be really really lame. " Oh it's not him, it's an evil spirit. I prefer the idea of it being 100% that person, only with a new set of desires and urges. You wouldn't have the chemical reactions and hormones guiding you. Even if we ignore that Durkon is Lawful Good in every way that Roy failed to be when he died, I still don't think I could buy it. Durkon's primary traits are an unflinching hatred for the undead, being completely at peace with his own mortality, and the aforementioned devotion to law and good. He refused to strike a deal with Malack when he turned out to be a vampire, even before he found out how evil he was. If he had arisen as a vampire with his own free will, he would only have stayed a vampire long enough to get to Roy (when they're safe on the airship at the very latest), at which point he would have staked himself if Roy had refused. I'm not saying it couldn't be done; you could do a convincing vampire arc for Roy or Haley or probably even Elan, but Durkon? I can't think of any excuse for keeping his vampire body alive. If you wanted to write it off as getting a new perspective on things, you might as well have the Order trick Belkar into wearing a Helmet of Opposite Alignment and call that meaningful character development.
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May 5, 2015 22:55
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I prefer possession to forced alignment change really. Forced alignment change is silly.
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May 5, 2015 23:05
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I know Rich has explained that Malack the vampire was not Malack the lizardfolk, but I am still okay with the idea that the vampire believed some of the things. You run an act for centuries and at some point the lines between the act and reality get blurred a little, y'know?
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May 6, 2015 00:26
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Its possible that a dominated vampire could be forced to maintain the original's personality, but I doubt it, what with him having to teach Durkula not to walk in sunlight and all.
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May 6, 2015 02:21
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Johnny Aztec posted:Also, I find this method of vampirsm to be really really lame. " Oh it's not him, it's an evil spirit. I prefer the idea of it being 100% that person, only with a new set of desires and urges. You wouldn't have the chemical reactions and hormones guiding you. If you have a new set of desires and urges, could you really be said to be 100% the person you were?
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May 6, 2015 04:55
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You can always ask one of the various people that have suffered personality altering brain damage. I'm fairly sure they still think of themselves as the same person.
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May 6, 2015 06:01
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Cthulhuchan posted:You can always ask one of the various people that have suffered personality altering brain damage. I'm fairly sure they still think of themselves as the same person. They do, I read a really sad npr article about a professional boxer who had slowly gotten brain damage over his career. He hadn't noticed he had a turned into a gentle person intelligent person into someone who had trouble holding conversations and was quick to lose his temper. His friends and family had to tell him  He kept boxing because he believes he has no other marketable skills
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May 6, 2015 13:16
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My Lovely Horse posted:Belkar becoming undead is pretty much the accepted interpretation of the prophecy, because it's just so specific. So much so that I hope Rich is planning to subvert the expectation somehow, or it's gonna be a repeat of the big reveal that Malack is a vampire! when everyone had that figured out pretty much as soon as he started talking about his special diet. I disagree. If Rich was going to go that route, it would have been when Malack was trying to turn him into a vampire. It can't really happen again, or else it'll lose all its impact. Everyone always tries to find the loopholes in prophecies, but I think the twist this time might be that there is no twist.
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May 6, 2015 14:18
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Zoe posted:
Eh that's fair. It is a bit harsh to call something petty escapism, as that suggests that escapism is petty which is something that comes down to personal opinion. Rich is outspoken but he is just saying his preference. You don't have to agree, but his preference is his preference and he is just being honest about it. Just as you are being honest about your rejection of that. That's okay. Though I would probably argue that no writer is unbiased, and one's life experience and how one views the world will seep into pretty much anything that's written even if you aren't trying for it. So in that context it would be truly hard to make a purely meaningless work. You might not like what a work communicates but I don't think it is very common for a work to have nothing, unless the person who wrote it was raised in a box and never saw the light of day or something. Though I bet someone in that situation writing a book would make something very interesting, if not incomprehensible, so maybe that's not even true. I do think your definition of meaningful is far too narrow, it goes beyond big themes/allegories that you get in highschool English. Though I will say, I think order of the stick is a much stronger work because rich cares about the stuff that he cares about. Redcloak for instance, is not a cardboard cut out character who is there just to pontificate a view but a fully fleshed out character with authentic motivations and flaws and all that. He's a drat good character and the story is far more interesting with him in it. There is a very big difference between those two things.
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May 6, 2015 15:11
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I also think it's worth pointing out that he's pretty much totally right in this case. If you have a sapient species in a fictional setting who are all evil, totally monstrous, and it's for no other reason than "they just are, implicitly so the heroes can kill them and not feel bad", you probably messed up somewhere along the way. Not only is it dubious in terms of how it relates to the real world, it's lazy writing. That's not to say there can't be predominantly evil societies or cultures, or for instance a race of aliens whose evolutionary path predisposes them to behaviour humans would consider immoral, but the way D&D has traditionally done it with "there are some goblins here, you can kill them and not feel bad because you need to get your experience points SOME way!" is pretty messed up.
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May 6, 2015 15:24
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The goblins raid human settlements, killing people, and taking others as slaves. Sounds like pretty good reasons to me.
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May 6, 2015 16:08
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Johnny Aztec posted:The goblins raid human settlements, killing people, and taking others as slaves. The Mongolians would like a word with you, and the North American settlers, and the Tartars, the Vikings, ...., n+1. Android Blues posted:I also think it's worth pointing out that he's pretty much totally right in this case. If you have a sapient species in a fictional setting who are all evil, totally monstrous, and it's for no other reason than "they just are, implicitly so the heroes can kill them and not feel bad", you probably messed up somewhere along the way. Not only is it dubious in terms of how it relates to the real world, it's lazy writing. This is why my the book I'm writing its generally normal humans that are the barbarian hordes and the usual fantasy race fodder the 'good' guys. But for socio-economic political reasons that make sense and "just because".
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May 6, 2015 16:30
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Raenir Salazar posted:
And they called it.... Goblins.
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May 6, 2015 16:38
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D1Sergo posted:And they called it.... Goblins. Nah, my thing is because Dragonlance is taking too long to produce more sequals to Kang's Regiment and I want more, but instead of writing fanfiction I'll write something I can try to publish instead.
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May 6, 2015 16:41
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JuniperCake posted:Eh that's fair. It is a bit harsh to call something petty escapism, as that suggests that escapism is petty which is something that comes down to personal opinion. Uhh, I don't know what you meant to say here, but that doesn't make sense. Calling something petty escapism heavily implies that there exists non-petty escapism from which it is distinct. Otherwise, he'd just call it escapism.
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