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Threw his pack with his phone in it too. People just stop loving thinking when they get in trouble.
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May 5, 2015 22:09
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There are two types of accidents: experienced people who really had a legitimate accident, and dumbasses who pushed too far or tried to take a shortcut and got stuck.
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May 5, 2015 23:00
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Picnic Princess posted:There are two types of accidents: experienced people who really had a legitimate accident, and dumbasses who pushed too far or tried to take a shortcut and got stuck. Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll end up stuck halfway up a cliff.
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May 5, 2015 23:07
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Hungryjack posted:Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll end up stuck halfway up a cliff. Might even get a free helicopter ride out of it! Even if you're dead! 
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May 5, 2015 23:08
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n8r posted:I think a 40 degree bag is not warm enough for sleeping in country where the temps get down near freezing. Especially if you aren't in a tent. A tent provides a pretty significant amount of insulation. My experience has been that if you're in ~30 degree temps, you have to be pretty bundled up in a 20 degree bag to be comfortable. This includes wearing a hat and having the bag fully zipped/over your head, and I'm a really warm sleeper.
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May 5, 2015 23:42
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My post wasn't clear. If you're in 30 degree temps OUTSIDE/no tent you'll want a 20 degree bag. With a tent it's a different ballgame.
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May 6, 2015 00:03
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OSU_Matthew posted:Great pics! If you don't mind me asking, which trail did you take?  Started at Blackbird Knob parking (yellow star) and did the black route, which came out to be about 20-22 miles total. Originally I only planned to hike down to the Forks of Red Creek on the first day, but I got there early and decided to go all the way down to Lion's Head to kill time. The view from Lion's Head is nice, but the trail is an old railroad bed that gets rougher the further south you go. For the distance you go I'm not sure it's worth it unless you want to see everything. Hiked back up and camped on the Blackbird Knob trail at the blue star overnight - that's this spot here and I highly recommend it:  The second day was the loop around the northern end of the park and it was non-stop phenomenal views. Definitely recommend Rocky Ridge and Raven Ridge trails (the western and northern edges of the park). Upper Red Creek Trail (#509) was pretty boggy but between that and Dobbin Grade there's no way you're going to avoid the mud. Based on my experience the northern half of the Sods is far superior, the southern half is nice but nothing you won't see elsewhere in the Appalachians. I'll actually be writing up the trail directions (minus Lion's Head) for a local hiking website, but they probably won't be posted for a month or two. They've got two Dolly Sods routes up already that give pretty good directions though: http://www.hikingupward.com/MNF/DollySodsLionsHead/ http://www.hikingupward.com/MNF/DollySodsNorth/
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May 6, 2015 00:13
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cheese posted:Why? I'm not saying this to be contrary, but everything I have read and all that I have heard have indicated that its perfectly acceptable to bring a lighter quilt/bag and plan on wearing your clothes to increase the warmth. I'm not sure why I would need a 20 degree bag - my torso was warm enough at midnight when I went to sleep in just my t-shirt and ghost whisperer down jacket. Why would I need a 20 degree bag? I should add that I'm a nuclear furnace radiating heat at night, but still, why bring a 20 degree bag and sleep in just a base layer when I have a windbreak, softshell and down jacket in my bag already? I think the one thing you'd want to be careful about is in areas that can have drastic temperature swings that might get down lower than you have the equipment for. During the summer in the mountains it's probably fine but if you're camping in the shoulder seasons it might get a bit cold
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May 6, 2015 00:21
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Nothing wrong with sleeping in your puffy. Lots of people do it to stretch the rating on bags/quilts.
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May 6, 2015 00:23
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Went to town for work and followed previously given advice to hike Roxbourough park  
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May 6, 2015 00:29
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n8r posted:My post wasn't clear. If you're in 30 degree temps OUTSIDE/no tent you'll want a 20 degree bag. With a tent it's a different ballgame.  Levitate posted:I think the one thing you'd want to be careful about is in areas that can have drastic temperature swings that might get down lower than you have the equipment for. During the summer in the mountains it's probably fine but if you're camping in the shoulder seasons it might get a bit cold
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May 6, 2015 00:36
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cheese posted:I was in a 40 degree bag in 30 degree temps cowboy camping, wearing my puffy and shell and like 2 layers of pants. I was warm Most bag ratings are actually intended to include worn clothing. You're doing exactly right! I've got some very warm military bags, but if I tried to push the rating while in boxers and a t-shirt, and without a tent, then I'd have a very cold night indeed.
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May 6, 2015 00:58
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Kaal posted:Most bag ratings are actually intended to include worn clothing. You're doing exactly right! I've got some very warm military bags, but if I tried to push the rating while in boxers and a t-shirt, and without a tent, then I'd have a very cold night indeed.
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May 6, 2015 02:04
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its no big deal posted:Hey all, I've got a question on how long hiking boots should last. I purchased my boots (North Face if that matters) about 14 months ago. Since then, I'd estimate they have 250 miles on them tops, which was concentrated in 6 weeks of ~30 miles per week last summer. Today, hiking in the Great Sand Dunes, I noticed that the stitching along the side is coming undone, causing the water resistant part (maybe goretex?) to peel away. Depends on the terrain. My last pair lasted maybe 300 miles over 2 years, though the stitching was coming undone probably around the 200 mile mark. Mine were continually thrashed on scree fields and I stopped wearing them because the tread had deteriorated too much. I wouldn't stop wearing mine because of some loose stitching.
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May 6, 2015 03:26
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A Kpro posted:Depends on the terrain. My last pair lasted maybe 300 miles over 2 years, though the stitching was coming undone probably around the 200 mile mark. Mine were continually thrashed on scree fields and I stopped wearing them because the tread had deteriorated too much. I wouldn't stop wearing mine because of some loose stitching. Thanks, I guess time wise it seemed so short but it has been a decent amount of miles. Some has been in backcountry areas off trail (geology field work with special access so not breaking rules). I'll wear them down until they far apart. The annoying part was the seam collecting a poo poo ton of sand.
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May 6, 2015 05:48
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I personally do not find sleeping in two jackets and two pairs of pants comfortable.
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May 6, 2015 05:52
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n8r posted:I personally do not find sleeping in two jackets and two pairs of pants comfortable. Once you are asleep, you do not notice!
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May 6, 2015 11:02
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Kaal posted:Most bag ratings are actually intended to include worn clothing. You're doing exactly right! I've got some very warm military bags, but if I tried to push the rating while in boxers and a t-shirt, and without a tent, then I'd have a very cold night indeed. Hold the phone, what's all this talk about wearing clothes inside your bag? I've heard and read from multiple sources that you shouldn't do that. Reasoning is that without clothes, your body can heat up the air trapped inside the bag. If you wear clothes, your bag will stay cold. Is this a myth?
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May 6, 2015 12:07
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theroachman posted:Hold the phone, what's all this talk about wearing clothes inside your bag? I've heard and read from multiple sources that you shouldn't do that. Reasoning is that without clothes, your body can heat up the air trapped inside the bag. If you wear clothes, your bag will stay cold. Is this a myth?
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May 6, 2015 12:09
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http://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/camp-sleeping-tips.htmlquote:Avoid overdressing before you hop into your bag. Wearing bulky clothing inside a bag can actually reduce the bag's ability to efficiently trap body heat. Instead, drape items such as a jacket on the outside top of your bag for an extra layer of insulation.
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May 6, 2015 12:31
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The only time you'll get a loss of isolation efficiency is when your clothes/bag insulation compresses.
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May 6, 2015 13:12
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I could see maybe if you're wearing a bunch of clothes and it's super cold outside, the space between your clothes and the bag might not warm up as much and then maybe your fingers might get cold because they're in that now cooler space. But the rest of your body will be warmer and you can tuck your fingers in your armpits or close to your body. I'm personally a strong believer in wearing extra clothes in the bag if it's cold.
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May 6, 2015 13:25
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theroachman posted:Hold the phone, what's all this talk about wearing clothes inside your bag? I've heard and read from multiple sources that you shouldn't do that. Reasoning is that without clothes, your body can heat up the air trapped inside the bag. If you wear clothes, your bag will stay cold. Is this a myth? Clo values are additive, if you wear a jacket inside your bag, you will be warmer. That reasoning is saying "if you wear a jacket inside your bag, your bag will not warm up as fast" which may or may not be valid in the real world where you're tossing around on the ground and pushing all the hot air out of your jacket into the bag's insulation layer anyway, but overall, you will be warmer with more insulation, provided layers are not being compressed. Bag temperature ratings, while non-standardized, generally are set with the idea that you'll be wearing some insulation such as hat/balaclava, gloves, jacket, etc. as you get to the extreme end.
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May 6, 2015 13:51
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Temperature ratings are usually not apples to apples, it's better to compare the loft of the insulation in the bag. Someone on backpackinglight took an average of ratings and compared their bag's lofts and made a table of the averages:code:
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May 6, 2015 14:01
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Saint Fu posted:I could see maybe if you're wearing a bunch of clothes and it's super cold outside, the space between your clothes and the bag might not warm up as much and then maybe your fingers might get cold because they're in that now cooler space. But the rest of your body will be warmer and you can tuck your fingers in your armpits or close to your body. I'm personally a strong believer in wearing extra clothes in the bag if it's cold. Yeah I've basically heard if there is too little space in your bag or if there's too much space in your bag that it can cause less than ideal insulation. You need some space to be able to warm up the air around you, which the bags insulation holds in. If you are wearing so much clothing that you're stuffed tightly into your bag (or if your bag is just too small) then it won't insulate as well...you're not leaving enough air to trap the heat in. On the other hand, like you said, you'll probably be trapping more heat next to your body in your clothes however. Conversely, if there's too much air that your body has to heat up then it won't work as well.
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May 6, 2015 14:18
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With all this talk about wearing your clothes in your sleeping bag how are you guys cleaning your bags? I usually take a thermal top and bottom to just wear in my sleeping bag because if I took my clothes in, it would get muddy and filthy instantly. Are you all using sleeping bag liners?
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May 6, 2015 17:13
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I usually wear long undies only, but if it's really cold I'll wear all my clothes, and they're usually not all that muddy 
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May 6, 2015 17:20
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Generally I sleep in long underwear and thick wool socks (big puffy socks that I don't hike in). It keeps my bag clean and keeps me warm. If the temps drop, I might put on a fleece shirt/top and a hat. That will significantly increase my warmth through the night. Also, switching from my thermorest self inflating pad to my big agnes insulated q core made a huge difference in warmth throughout the night. One of my biggest problems was getting into my bag when it was already freezing. I started doing a few pushups right before bed and I'm really toasty. Just make sure not to break into a sweat. On a related note, I remember hearing that getting into your sleeping bag naked (or close to) is the best way for your bag to warm up because the heat coming off your body will immediately fill the air within the bag. Personally, I want to keep my bodily funk off the material as much as possible so long undies seem to work fine for me.
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May 6, 2015 17:35
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I really don't get this "sleep naked, your body needs to warm up the airspace in the bag" thing, it reeks of Camping Myth to me. It may affect how long it takes to get warm, but at a steady state (after 5 minutes say) more insulation should be better, period. Unless you load up on clothes to the point of squishing the loft out of your clothes/bag Also, eating a snack before bed is one of the best ways of keeping warm through the night. I almost always wake up a little hypoglycemic after cold nights, which always reminds me of just how strongly calories and bodyheat go together.
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May 6, 2015 17:51
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Yeah eating something high in fat right before bed is supposed to help keep you warm
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May 6, 2015 18:23
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Anyone familiar with the Emigrant Wilderness north of Yosemite? It's not far from me and I was thinking of doing a 2-night trip up there next week, if there are any recommended places to check out.
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May 6, 2015 18:26
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Levitate posted:Yeah eating something high in fat right before bed is supposed to help keep you warm
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May 6, 2015 18:33
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alnilam posted:I really don't get this "sleep naked, your body needs to warm up the airspace in the bag" thing, it reeks of Camping Myth to me. It may affect how long it takes to get warm, but at a steady state (after 5 minutes say) more insulation should be better, period. Unless you load up on clothes to the point of squishing the loft out of your clothes/bag These are all true things. Sleeping in your skivvies is often more immediately comfortable and will warm the bag up quicker since there is less insulation between your body heat and the bag, but ultimately means there is less insulation between yourself and the outside air. The only part of this camping myth that rings true is that clothes that are so bulky that they are significantly compressing the sleeping bag should be avoided, because they can compromise the bag's insulation by creating heat loss points. But generally that's an issue with a wrong-sized sleeping bag, rather than sleep-wear selection.
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May 6, 2015 19:04
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evil_bunnY posted:The only time you'll get a loss of isolation efficiency is when your clothes/bag insulation compresses. Alright, glad we got that sorted out. It's funny how stuff like that gets thrown around until it's basically accepted as a fact by nearly everyone (including me, I must admit). That gets me wondering, any other commonly accepted myths that need to be busted?
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May 6, 2015 19:26
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Stuff like insulation is really easy to figure out because it's really simple physics. If you run across other "facts" I'm sure someone here can help you set it straight.
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May 6, 2015 19:27
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I think planning on bringing a bag that you need have to wear all of your clothes to stay warm is a bad idea. Your clothes get wet and you freeze your nuts off. Seems like common sense to me.
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May 6, 2015 20:09
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theroachman posted:Alright, glad we got that sorted out. It's funny how stuff like that gets thrown around until it's basically accepted as a fact by nearly everyone (including me, I must admit). That gets me wondering, any other commonly accepted myths that need to be busted? Whoah whoah whoah, hold on, I wouldn't call that one busted, not even close. You DO only want to wear only your base layer or skivvies in your bag, otherwise you're not heating up the air and insulation around you and your bag isn't able to insulate properly. I wouldn't call wearing three jackets "sleeping warm"--that's clear proof your bag was not adequate. If you want to stay warm at night, get in your bag early instead of hanging out by the campfire--that actually lowers your body's temperature. Also filling a spare water bottle with hot water, stuffing that in a sock, and cramming it between your thighs will radiate heat all night through your femoral artery, which in turn pumps the warmed blood all throughout your body. Also sleeping bags are rated with a heated copper tube in a lab, which is a piss poor approximation for how it'll do in the real world, with wind, perspiration, etc sapping heat away. Pay attention to loft, construction (eg baffles that create thin/cold spots in the insulation), how you store your sleeping bag (keeping it in the compression sack reduces loft/life), material (synthetic if you're expecting it to be wet, down if it's cold and dry), etc etc etc. Other thing people don't realize with putting all those layers on is exactly how much water you lose via perspiration overnight. All those extra layers trap that water close to your body, which only serves to convect heat away from you. You want your bag to breathe, otherwise you're going to be cold and wet. After all, why do you think there's so much condensation on the inside of your tent in the morning?
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May 6, 2015 20:44
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OSU_Matthew posted:You DO only want to wear only your base layer or skivvies in your bag, otherwise you're not heating up the air and insulation around you and your bag isn't able to insulate properly
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May 6, 2015 20:46
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OSU_Matthew posted:Other thing people don't realize with putting all those layers on is exactly how much water you lose via perspiration overnight. All those extra layers trap that water close to your body, which only serves to convect heat away from you. You want your bag to breathe, otherwise you're going to be cold and wet. After all, why do you think there's so much condensation on the inside of your tent in the morning? First start with the assumptions. There's a temperature gradient between your skin and the outside air (warm to cold). There is a certain temperature where water vapor will condense into a liquid (called the dew point). When you're in your bag, your body is releasing water and it is in the vapor phase when it leaves your skin because that specific area is above the dew point temperature. As the water vapor permeates outward through the insulation layers, it will start to cool (remember the gradient from before). Once that water molecule finds itself in an environment that is below the dew point it will condense into liquid water. Often times the dew point isn't met until the water is somewhere between the outside of your bag and the inside of your tent. In that case it'll condense on the inside of your tent and maybe drip on you or run down the sides. When it's really cold out, the water might hit the dew point somewhere between your skin and the outside of your bag. In this case it condenses in the insulation and starts getting things wet. Now, if your insulation is super thick (like you're wearing your puffy inside your bag), you're more likely to reach the dew point inside your insulation layer which could be bad if your insulation is made of down because once down gets wet it compresses and the temperature gradient vanishes so your skin had very little loft between it and the atmosphere. On the other hand, if you don't wear your puffy, your skin will feel more heat leaving because the temperature gradient between your skin and the outside air will be steeper (less loft, which is basically just stagnant air, means an easier path for heat to escape). I think this is where a bunch of the confusion comes from. It seems like we're at a conundrum because more insulation might lead to water condensing inside the bag's loft, but less insulation will mean we'll feel colder because of a steeper temperature gradient. Fortunately, if you're a 3-season camper, the dew point is most likely going to be outside your bag's outer layer no matter what you wear underneath. If you're winter camping, you might have to consider a vapor layer to make sure the water cant escape the inside of your bag and condenses on you, thus keeping your down dry and well lofted. The extra layers don't really trap the moisture close to your body, they just make it more likely that that moisture will condense within the layer. But that isn't a concern at most "normal" camping temperatures. The statement that you want the bag to breathe isn't really correct. You want to preserve that warm pocket of air you've created. One thing I will give you, is that if you wear a bunch of extra clothes and that makes you too hot so you start to sweat, then you're adding a bunch of extra water to the inside of your bag and will raise the local humidity which will raise the dew point meaning the water vapor will condense at a higher temperature, maybe inside your bag. tldr: More insulation results in less heat escaping your body = you feel warmer. There are considerations regarding water vapor/condensation which might result in your insulation losing loft (if you have down), but typically this shouldn't be a concern for you.
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May 6, 2015 21:15
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OSU_Matthew posted:Other thing people don't realize with putting all those layers on is exactly how much water you lose via perspiration overnight. All those extra layers trap that water close to your body, which only serves to convect heat away from you. You want your bag to breathe, otherwise you're going to be cold and wet. After all, why do you think there's so much condensation on the inside of your tent in the morning? The others have talked about the mechanics of insulation, but I thought that I'd take a moment to talk about how condensation works. Everyone is familiar with how tents often have beads of water on them in the morning (particularly the roof). But this is not caused by perspiration, but rather cooling condensation. Perspiration beading occurs because of an increase in ambient humidity from sweat, while condensation beading occurs because of changes in air density due to thermal cooling. It's the difference between sweating up a car during hanky-panky, and an ice cold can of soda that gets coated in water droplets on a hot day. When it comes to camping, the ideal sleeping bag is obviously one where you are warm but not to the point of sweating. But your tent will have condensation forming on it, as the warm air of your tent (i.e. outside of your sleeping bag) rises to the roof and then cools - forming droplets of water. You can use breathable fabrics to encourage evaporation on both your sleeping bag and your tent in order to minimize the water-induced heat loss, but since condensation is inherent to thermal thresholds there's a limit to how effective that can be. On a tangential note, the single largest source of humidity in a tent is generally your nose and mouth. So if you are concerned about reducing perspiration then remember to keep your face relatively exposed while sleeping so as to ensure that your moist exhaled air doesn't enter your sleeping bag. Even still, the amount of water that we're talking about is pretty small and is unlikely to be noticeable unless you are using a water-proof bivy. Kaal fucked around with this message at 21:55 on May 6, 2015 |
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May 6, 2015 21:50
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