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theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

I only have the first book of it, but for that much, Scion's voodoo didn't bother me too much. It had the least hookerized goddesses out of the available pantheons, anyway.

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NGDBSS
Dec 30, 2009






theironjef posted:

I only have the first book of it, but for that much, Scion's voodoo didn't bother me too much. It had the least hookerized goddesses out of the available pantheons, anyway.
Considering what I recall about Scion, that's not a high bar to clear. Plus apparently there exist several different forms of vodun/voodoo depending on where you're talking about. (I'd guess that Scion was specifically using Haitian vodun.)

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy
Has there been an F&F review of Talislanta? The OSR Google+ community I visit linked a site that has all of it for free and it talks of the series with a sort of old-school reverence, but I know nothing about the game.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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theironjef posted:

I only have the first book of it, but for that much, Scion's voodoo didn't bother me too much. It had the least hookerized goddesses out of the available pantheons, anyway.

That's because the Aztecs and Norse were too busy eating up most of the offensiveness; the Loas weren't great but at least they weren't actively offensive most of the time.


E: I've read some Talislanta, and it's interesting. The culture stuff is dense as hell, the magic stuff is pretty interesting. The system is...weird.

Mors Rattus fucked around with this message at 07:10 on May 8, 2015

NGDBSS
Dec 30, 2009






Any specifics on how the presentation of Aztec pantheon was offensive? I'd gotten that sense from secondhand comments, but unlike with the Norse pantheon there was no one like Rulebook Heavily to delineate exactly why things were offensive.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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Well, for one, the obsession with blood sacrifice, death and filth. They are made to look like evil, terrible, monstrous people all the time.

From the White wolf wiki: "Tlazoltéotl: Goddess of filth, she hopes to expose the darkest secrets within everything."

Tlazolteotl was a goddess of sin and purification. The cleansing of filth as well as the actual stuff. But that's basically stripped away - as are many of the positive aspects of the Aztec gods in favor of BLOOOOOOD. It also ignores anything related to the Mexica and other Nahuatl-speaking indigenous people that still exist. Not that erasing them is rare, of course.

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

Mors Rattus posted:

That's because the Aztecs and Norse were too busy eating up most of the offensiveness; the Loas weren't great but at least they weren't actively offensive most of the time.

To be fair the Japanese pantheon was completely full of geishas and anime developers too.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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I never actually read the Kami or Celestial Bureaucracy stuff, but I am the opposite of surprised.

Scion is a Bad Game.

Wapole Languray
Jul 4, 2012

gradenko_2000 posted:

Has there been an F&F review of Talislanta? The OSR Google+ community I visit linked a site that has all of it for free and it talks of the series with a sort of old-school reverence, but I know nothing about the game.

http://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/wapole-languray/talislanta/

I did one a while back, the images are all long gone though. I got all the mechanics and petered out during the fluff chapters. 4e at least is a rock-solid fairly rules light RPG, with the Magic system being very similar to Ars Magica style stuff. Setting's pretty standard Earth Culture with Fantasy Twist type stuff. The Not!Mongols are also Not!Klingons, the Wise Native Shaman types are shapeshifters, One of the classes is basically Vulcan Sherlock Holmes, there's Magic Ninja's in Not!China, etc. I like it. The only downside I'd say is the character creation, which is basically picking from one of a ton of totally-imbalanced Templates that you don't really modify. On one hand, if your players LOVE min-maxing characters this will literally NOT WORK. On the other hand, this means that each race is actually different, instead of being mechanically identical with One Neat Trick. Ur (8-Foot tall Not!Orcs) are legit just straight combat terrors, Cymrilians (WIZARDS!) are just flat the best Mages in the game, etc. Powergamers will hate it.

I recommend sticking with 4e, 5th feels really amateur and fan-boyish in comparison.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.

Mors Rattus posted:

I never actually read the Kami or Celestial Bureaucracy stuff, but I am the opposite of surprised.

Scion is a Bad Game.

what's worse is Scion has so much potential, but between the broken mechanics and the really bad treatment of the gods, it's a pile of fail. I think that's worse then just a bad game with bad ideas.

In the right hands, playing godkids in urban fantasy versus modernized monsters would've been loving amazing.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Mors Rattus posted:

It is very hard to think of an RPG that has done voudoun or any similar religion all that well. Or any game in general, I think, besides Gabriel Knight.

Gabriel Knight was amazing, though.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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Robindaybird posted:

what's worse is Scion has so much potential, but between the broken mechanics and the really bad treatment of the gods, it's a pile of fail. I think that's worse then just a bad game with bad ideas.

In the right hands, playing godkids in urban fantasy versus modernized monsters would've been loving amazing.

Scion has a good high concept. That's all I will say for it. But good concepts are a dime a dozen. It is executed poorly on every conceivable level.

Consider: your power stat is your Legend. One of the example NPCs is a prophet with his own talk radio show.

Scion never talks about how the mundane world reacts to literal demigods.

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

GURPS: Voodoo did it better than most.

GURPS authors seem to do as much research as the rest of the industry put together.

hectorgrey
Oct 14, 2011

The Lone Badger posted:

GURPS authors seem to do as much research as the rest of the industry put together.

True. Just one of the reasons I really like GURPS.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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GURPS and Ars Magica are the only RPGs I know of that have bibliographies instead of inspiration lists.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.

Mors Rattus posted:

Well, for one, the obsession with blood sacrifice, death and filth. They are made to look like evil, terrible, monstrous people all the time.

From the White wolf wiki: "Tlazoltéotl: Goddess of filth, she hopes to expose the darkest secrets within everything."

Tlazolteotl was a goddess of sin and purification. The cleansing of filth as well as the actual stuff. But that's basically stripped away - as are many of the positive aspects of the Aztec gods in favor of BLOOOOOOD. It also ignores anything related to the Mexica and other Nahuatl-speaking indigenous people that still exist. Not that erasing them is rare, of course.

While it's incredibly lovely to erase real people existing today and it's bad writing for a game about gods to describe the gods badly, any kind of take on the Aztec gods as good guys would be fairly hard.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

MonsieurChoc posted:

While it's incredibly lovely to erase real people existing today and it's bad writing for a game about gods to describe the gods badly, any kind of take on the Aztec gods as good guys would be fairly hard.

Mortal Kombat 10 of all games manages it. Huitzilopochtli/Buluc is a war god through and through, but he's honorable, intelligent, and doesn't love war for its own sake. His chief problem is that he has a serious temper.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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Funny thing - if you can't manage to make them at least arguably sympathetic and good, you probably shouldn't make them a base PC group. (And it's not as hard as it sounds - the human sacrifices were largely volunteers...and, of course, certain prisoners of war, yes, but still. There were reasons for it - it wasn't just, you know, random bloodthirst. Sacrifice is a major theme of Aztec folklore, and the gods sacrificed themselves for the world and for humans. Viewing them as bad guys because of sacrifice is stupid. They were big good - and now we have to emulate them! Turns out that involves some death. See, the Aztec view was that everything drew from the same source - life. The gods died so others might live. Sacrificial victims died so others might live. The real world doesn't have cackling evil priests.)

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.
The fact that they really believed in their sacrifices doesn't really make it any less hosed up, though. I mean, one fo the reasons the Aztec Empire fell was because they'd pissed off everyone else by kidnapping their population in huge numbers to fuel their sacrifices.

I mean, obviously it's not that simple, but reading about it would make anyone raised in modern time at least a little weirded out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Aztec_culture#Tlaloc

Humbug Scoolbus
Apr 25, 2008

The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.
Clapping Larry

hectorgrey posted:

True. Just one of the reasons I really like GURPS.

I hate the system, but love the sourcebooks.

Also Maztica did a decent job of handling Mesoamerica and most of it's here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20100429144428/http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/tsr1066.zip
https://web.archive.org/web/20100429144428/http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/tsr9333.zip
https://web.archive.org/web/20100429144428/http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/tsr9340.zip
https://web.archive.org/web/20100429144428/http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/tsr9349.zip

Humbug Scoolbus fucked around with this message at 15:38 on May 8, 2015

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:

Robindaybird posted:

what's worse is Scion has so much potential, but between the broken mechanics and the really bad treatment of the gods, it's a pile of fail. I think that's worse then just a bad game with bad ideas.

In the right hands, playing godkids in urban fantasy versus modernized monsters would've been loving amazing.

I agree so much. I love the idea of a modern pantheon, and Scion seems good as long as you don't look at it too closely. Unfortunately when you do you find all sorts of poo poo seeping out from the cracks.

FMguru
Sep 10, 2003

peed on;
sexually

Mors Rattus posted:

Scion has a good high concept. That's all I will say for it. But good concepts are a dime a dozen. It is executed poorly on every conceivable level.
It was also perfectly timed. Gods in the modern world is hot hot hot and has been for a while (Neil Gaiman, those Percy Jackson novels, hell even Marvel's Thor franchise). But the execution was pants, both in the fluff and the crunch.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

GURPS: Voodoo did it better than most.

Funny you should mention it. I mean that, it's genuinely funny, because GURPS Voodoo was written by...

CJ Carella.

Mind, I don't know if Kev wrote the Bahia section instead, or if they thought the difference was irrelevant to American readers, or what. After all, CJ definitely shows he's capable of much deeper research in GURPS Voodoo, even though it's deliberately simplified for gaming purposes.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.
Genius: The Transgression, Miscellaneous Rules


First things first, Havoc!

Havoc is Paradox from oMage. Mad science is not real science, and mortals interacting with wonders always results in Havoc checks, one per round the mortal does anything more than look at it - and even then, if the mortal looks at it and starts thinking about how it [can't] work, Havoc. If a mortal for whatever reason does not trigger Havoc - which is up to the DM - you've got a beholden or a new genius in the making. Now, simply seeing a wonder in action or using one on a mortal doesn't trigger Havoc - you're free to zap mortals with your ray gun or dump them in a healing vat - but physical contact of any kind does. A mortal can punch your mad science battlemech and make it fall apart.

That's not an exaggeration. A dramatic failure on a Havoc check either turns the wonder permanently orphan (which I'll explain below) or outright destroys it. An ordinary failure turns the wonder into a violent orphan for the duration of the scene, and it will do anything it can to hurt, break, or otherwise attack everyone in the vicinity, especially the mortal who triggered the Havoc check. On a success, the wonder survives but acquires a new fault. Only on an exceptional success does the wonder have no ill effects.

Intelligent wonders (Automata 4 and 5) and manes are somewhat more resilient to Havoc - they won't trigger Havoc checks from simple touch, but prolonged physical contact like active hand to hand combat, first aid, or feeling up will. Even so, a dramatic failure turns the wonder or mane permanently, incurably insane, and may kill them outright. Failures drive them temporarily violently insane, and so on and so forth.

In short, keep wonders and manes the hell away from mortals if it's at all possible. This would also be one of the reasons why the Mane merit, letting you play as one, is such a problem. Particularly if you are by all appearances a normal human being.

For a bit of good news, a mane inside their native bardo or Unmada field never rolls Havoc. Though Genius suggests Havoc checks for dramatic failures using wonders, so...


Orphans

All wonders have an owner, drawing their functionality from the Mania and Inspiration of the genius who created them. However, it's possible for wonders and manes to go rogue and have no owner. These are called orphans.

There are five ways for this to happen. A dramatic failure during the construction of a wonder can turn it orphan, the wonder's creator may die (triggering all of their wonders to self-destruct or turn orphan, which Genius probably should have mentioned before now), a mane can leave or be taken from its home bardo, a genius can deliberately abandon and liberate a wonder (this is an Obligation-7 transgression), or an intelligent and willful wonder may go rogue of its own initiative if mistreated and abused.

When this happens, the wonder in many ways becomes a living creature.

Genius posted:

When a wonder turns permanently into an orphan―not just temporarily―it twists and mutates, its form
changing as maniacal energy washes over it, instilling a bestial urge to survive. Orphans become creatures,
rather than just extraordinary things, with their own desires and motivations.

An orphan automaton retains its Attributes, Skills, and assorted special abilities.

An orphan of some other Axiom receives Attributes as follows:

Strength: Size/5 (round down, minimum one dot)
Dexterity and Stamina: 2
Intelligence, Wits, Resolve, Presence, Manipulation, and Composure: 1
Species Movement: 0 (without other ways to move, an orphan can inch slowly along the ground, based on its
combined Strength and Dexterity scores)
Limbs: Unless otherwise noted, no manipulators
Senses: Similar to a normal human's

A wonder that is temporarily orphaned by Havoc gains all the above benefits, but does not mutate.

For full orphans, roll a number of dice equal to the new orphan's Rank and consult the chart below to
determines its mutations.


Skipping over a bunch of rules about intelligence and morality of orphans, all orphans face a fundamental problem: they require Mania to survive, but cannot generate Mania of their own. While they can perform integral abilities without using Mania (an orphan death ray needs no Mania to fire), all orphans face creeping degradation and eventual destruction unless they find a source of Mania. This can be the Calculus Vampire merit, a genius can tame an orphaned wonder, or the wonder can put itself into stasis.


The Thesis

This is how a genius increases their Inspiration.

Genius posted:

Different theses can vary enormously in scope, style, and approach. Though they are all designed to teach the
genius something about Inspiration and her own abilities, they can take many forms. However, a genius'
catalyst often guides the sort of theses she undergoes as her knowledge and power grow. Below are some
very general guidelines for what the different catalysts focus on during a thesis.

A Grimm's thesis is the most direct. He must overcome a challenge, often a threat that infuriates him
personally. This danger is a source of direct, personal anger, something visceral: a sexual predator for Grimms
who suffered sexual abuse, an Ubermensch infestation for a Grimm whose first collaborative died in a Lunar
Nazi assault. Grimm theses are the least connected to Inspiration and to mad science and the most connected
to the genius' mundane personality. In fact, many Grimms' theses stipulate that Mania should not play a major
role in their completion, or force a Grimm to rely on Skills and abilities other than wonders and mad science.
In his thesis, a Grimm pushes himself, physically, mentally, and psychologically, to new limits, simmering
slowly as he suffers and struggles, hoping to unleash his rage in a titanic blast that will, ideally, destroy his
enemies and lead him to enlightenment. The Grimm's thesis works to channel, hone, and shape his rage, from
something mindless and atavistic to the clean, precise surgical instrument of a true genius.

The Klagens are the doom-sayers of the Inspired, and their theses focus on warning or protecting people from
an upcoming disaster. Cassandras find themselves struggling to stop an onrushing catastrophe. It may be a
natural disaster, but often it is a disaster that people (including geniuses) have made for themselves. Klagens
find themselves struggling to make people see the doom racing toward them. Some force people to change
their ways―through persuasion or threats―while others ignore the voice of those they need to save and rush
head-long into protecting them, whether or not they want (or need) the help. Other Klagens merely study the
concept of sorrow. This can be the most abstract and least direct of theses, except perhaps those conducted
by Staunens, as a Klagen wanders the halls of the sorrowing and ruined, seeks out those whose lives she
destroyed―the families of enemy beholden she has killed, for example―and otherwise explores the nature
and extent of sorrow, misery, and loss.

A Hoffnung's thesis is perhaps the easiest to conceptualize: every Hoffnung has an image of how the world
should be, so a Hoffnung's thesis works to bring that world closer to reality. A Principality who dreams of a
worldwide Libertarian paradise may work to bring down government-backed financial institutions or turn a
bardo into a microcosm of his political vision. One who wants humanity to move beneath the oceans might
find herself in an ideological struggle with another Hoffnung for the ear of a mundane scientific policy
director at NASA. Hoffnungs work to promulgate and spread their policies, and their theses are the most
likely to connect to the mundane world, though they concern themselves with far-reaching ideas and policy
decisions, not individual changes. Anything that moves a Hoffnung's vision closer to reality―even symbolic
victories―can serve as a thesis.

A young Neid's thesis is often simple and may resemble that of a particularly unsubtle Grimm: she seeks
restitution for the wrongs done to her, either during her Breakthrough or in her Inspired career. While she
rarely dwells on the suffering (real or imagined) she experienced in her earlier life, which distinguishes her
from a Grimm, Neids may find themselves continually seeking out enemies to enact plans of revenge,
justification, or humiliation upon. But not all Neids are so simple, and as a Wyrm grows in experience, her
theses can become some of the most sophisticated and philosophical of all mad scientist's, focusing on the
nature of exclusion and inclusion, the paths that acceptance and outsider-status can take, and the trajectory of
isolation and abandonment. They never forget their feeling of betrayal and banishment, but they learn to
study it with more objectivity than many catalysts can analyze their own archetypal natures.

The thesis of a Staunen is based on the Watcher's fascination with the world. It is often a a journey of
discovery, a mixed exploration of one's self and one's object of fascination. A Staunen's thesis focuses not just
on an engrossing (and perhaps dangerous) aspect of the world that is not entirely understood, but parts of
the Staunen's own personality. All geniuses form connections and patterns easier than regular humans, and in
his thesis, a Staunen will weave together discoveries of the inside and outside worlds in ways that would
baffle most normal people, leading to a final key discovery that transforms his understanding of the Staunen's
object of study, and transforms a Grigori's understanding of himself.

Not every thesis is drawn from a genius' catalyst. Theses are intensely personal and can take many forms.
Some draw from the mad scientist's foundation: Artificers build new things, Directors explore interpersonal
relationships, Navigators engage in exploration and conflict, Progenitors transform and evolve themselves,
and Scholastics study riddles and mysteries. Some theses are drawn from much more personal experiences,
unanswered questions or unresolved obsessions in a genius' own life. As a genius' Inspiration climbs, she will
find herself darting from one inspiration for a thesis to the next, always finding new directions for selfimprovement.


In general, the Thesis is a rare moment of personal introspection, self-discovery, and self-actualization in the game line, putting aside wacky mad science adventures and sitting down to chew on the genius' insanity, vision, and inspiration. You're going down the rabbit hole, acting on and furthering your insanity to cultivate the alien energy of creativity that burns inside you.

We get some rules for the Thesis, but Genius emphasizes that this is between the player and the DM, and may not be represented by a simple roll or series of such. I approve, and rather wish Genius emphasized more of this in its rules.


Next up is a whole smorgasbord of rules for Beholden: how they can be created, how to use them for lab work or Dirty Work (i.e. making them your troupe of minions ala Mister Freeze's followers or the like), how to use them in large battles, etc. They're also creepy and disturbing as gently caress from an ethical standpoint:

Genius posted:

Beholden are interesting psychological studies. Though as intelligent, creative, and competent as they were
before their change, beholden are incapable of engaging in high-level theoretical thinking. They lack
metaphysical, philosophical, political, religious, ethical, or scientific thought-structures. (Or perhaps their
conscious minds simply can't access them.) A beholden has no preference for political candidates or political
parties. She does not subscribe to any religion, nor does she actively reject the tenets of any religion. She
cannot formulate an argument for or against any ethical or political stance, such as vegetarianism or welfare.
She may still cling to vestigial beliefs out of stubbornness, habit, or cultural identity, but she cannot really
understand why she does.

The only exception to this behavior is when a beholden interacts with a genius. Then, the beholden takes on
the philosophy and thinking mode of that genius. This ideological parroting is what makes a beholden so
useful to the Inspired.

This condition affects beholden surprisingly little. They still retain an instinctive moral system (measured by
Morality). Most beholden would feel disgusted and repulsed by cold-blooded murder, but when asked to
justify this feeling, they would be unable. Beholden can still engage in planning and form practical models of
the world around them: a clatch of beholden sent to kidnap a doctor can prepare, coordinate, and execute a
plan as well as their Skills and Attributes would allow. But they would be unable, for example, to offer an
ethical or philosophical justification for their actions.

Yeah, they're ghouls. But beware: Beholden are very likely to catalyze as geniuses themselves, and a mistreated Beholden is more than likely to catalyze as a Grimm...


This is getting a bit long, so next time we'll cover among other things bardos: places and ideas brought into existence by their own disproof.

Humbug Scoolbus
Apr 25, 2008

The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.
Clapping Larry

Alien Rope Burn posted:

Funny you should mention it. I mean that, it's genuinely funny, because GURPS Voodoo was written by...

CJ Carella.

Mind, I don't know if Kev wrote the Bahia section instead, or if they thought the difference was irrelevant to American readers, or what. After all, CJ definitely shows he's capable of much deeper research in GURPS Voodoo, even though it's deliberately simplified for gaming purposes.

Carella was (he's out of the business now) one of the genuinely good designers. Unisystem (and even better, Cinematic Unisystem) is terrific. Shane Hensley is a good one, Matt Forbeck is another. Monte is good for setting design and concept even if his system's suck. Robin Laws, Stolze, Dettwiller, Tynes.

I know the designers of FATE and PbTA and many of the other storygames are good, but I don't know them because I don't like that style of game so I haven't really bothered to learn their names. It doesn't mean I think they or their games are crap though.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



Kurieg posted:

I agree so much. I love the idea of a modern pantheon, and Scion seems good as long as you don't look at it too closely. Unfortunately when you do you find all sorts of poo poo seeping out from the cracks.
What seemed really gross to me was how Greek gods were explicitly and literally better at every possible field of humanoid endeavour. I wonder if this was because their playtest drafts were only using Greek gods, if it was because they wanted to push some kind of wacky pro-Greco agenda, or if they were just that dopey.

But it was like: Everyone else, get a power which is possibly kind of themely for your pantheon or possibly sort of gross and offensive! Greeks, get out your dice buckets from Exalted.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

FMguru posted:

It was also perfectly timed. Gods in the modern world is hot hot hot and has been for a while (Neil Gaiman, those Percy Jackson novels, hell even Marvel's Thor franchise). But the execution was pants, both in the fluff and the crunch.

"High concept is hot hot hot, execution is pants." is basically older White Wolf in a nutshell. I hear their newer stuff is better, but I've seen where they're going with that Beast thing. I think they just slip on a giant banana peel whenever they get near mythology.

occamsnailfile
Nov 4, 2007



zamtrios so lonely
Grimey Drawer

Night10194 posted:

"High concept is hot hot hot, execution is pants." is basically older White Wolf in a nutshell. I hear their newer stuff is better, but I've seen where they're going with that Beast thing. I think they just slip on a giant banana peel whenever they get near mythology.

Based on my experience in running a superhero game, it is extremely easy to make Scion characters in Mutants and Masterminds and just keep the themely bits one wants.

Lynx Winters
May 1, 2003

Borderlawns: The Treehouse of Pandora

Mors Rattus posted:

Scion never talks about how the mundane world reacts to literal demigods.

This was a thing I got caught up on when the game first came out. I really couldn't tell if you were supposed to revel in your new powers or try to keep your heritage hidden or what. I also couldn't tell what you were supposed to actually fight because the antagonist chapter was balls.

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

occamsnailfile posted:

Based on my experience in running a superhero game, it is extremely easy to make Scion characters in Mutants and Masterminds and just keep the themely bits one wants.

Yeah, I was just thinking that the best way to play Scion would be to adapt it to any decent superhero game and run from there.

BryanChavez
Sep 13, 2007

Custom: Heroic
Having A Life: Fair

MonsieurChoc posted:

The fact that they really believed in their sacrifices doesn't really make it any less hosed up, though. I mean, one fo the reasons the Aztec Empire fell was because they'd pissed off everyone else by kidnapping their population in huge numbers to fuel their sacrifices.

I mean, obviously it's not that simple, but reading about it would make anyone raised in modern time at least a little weirded out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Aztec_culture#Tlaloc

First: almost everyone they pissed off? Also worshiped those gods. These are the gods of Mexico (or at least, a decent chunk of Mexico), not just the Aztecs. The worst excesses of the latter-day Aztec Empire, obsessed with conquest and expansion, were horrifying, even though our knowledge of them is heavily filtered through the eyes of pagan-hating murderers who were eager to justify their brutalities. But they weren't the only people who worshiped these gods, and White Wolf has been cheeky enough with revisionism that they should have acted with utter glee when they looked at texts that suggest that the Aztecs engaged in active attempts to alter the religion of pre-Columbian Mexico for their own purposes.

Third: The Norse murdered captured women and entombed them with male warriors, in the belief that the spirits of those women would become the warrior's concubines in the afterlife. But haha, that Thor, he's a wacky, lovable lunk, right? Yeah!

Second: The Ancient Greeks left out so many children to die of exposure that the Ancient Egyptians launched rescue attempts and had an entire class of children named Copro-[blank], because they had adopted those children by rescuing them from poo poo piles the Greeks and Romans left them in. Somehow the Greek Gods in Scion are not depicted as child-murdering psychopaths.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

theironjef posted:

Yeah, I was just thinking that the best way to play Scion would be to adapt it to any decent superhero game and run from there.

Alternatively you could run it in Nobilis, though it would feel a bit different.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

From my understanding the excesses of the Aztec Empire came more from the Empire part than anything else, considering what Empires tended to do to their neighbors.

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

If you want "Scion but not terrible", Part Time Gods is the way to go.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 18, 2013



BryanChavez posted:

Second: The Ancient Greeks left out so many children to die of exposure that the Ancient Egyptians launched rescue attempts and had an entire class of children named Copro-[blank], because they had adopted those children by rescuing them from poo poo piles the Greeks and Romans left them in. Somehow the Greek Gods in Scion are not depicted as child-murdering psychopaths.
Not gonna lie that sounds like a fairly good start to a game about murdering the Greek pantheon. You're rescued as an infant by the Egyptians and trained to destroy the city states you came from. This involves killing their patron deity.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Terrible Opinions posted:

Not gonna lie that sounds like a fairly good start to a game about murdering the Greek pantheon. You're rescued as an infant by the Egyptians and trained to destroy the city states you came from. This involves killing their patron deity.

I would play the poo poo out of Revenge of the Exposed.

GimpInBlack
Sep 27, 2012

That's right, kids, take lots of drugs, leave the universe behind, and pilot Enlightenment Voltron out into the cosmos to meet Alien Jesus.

Night10194 posted:

I would play the poo poo out of Revenge of the Exposed.

And for this, you want Mythender.

(EDIT: I haven't forgotten about Beyond the Wall, just got really busy. I'll try to start Further Afield this weekend.)

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

Terrible Opinions posted:

Not gonna lie that sounds like a fairly good start to a game about murdering the Greek pantheon. You're rescued as an infant by the Egyptians and trained to destroy the city states you came from. This involves killing their patron deity.

It'd be a better backstory for Kratos than the bog standard "GAH MY WIFE AND KID" thing he was stuck with in the game, that's for sure.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:
It started off as "GAH MY WIFE AND KID!" but the PSP games especially show that the entire greek pantheon deserves each and every stabbing that Kratos gave them.

Persephone stole helios' chariot and tried to free Atlas from his imprisonment so she could collapse the world into Hades and end existence to get out of her marriage contract to the God. She then gave Kratos a shortcut into Elysium so that he would get out of her hair while she went through the business of murdering everything. He had to give up a paradise with his wife and child(Including a rather difficult button mashing prompt where you have to shove your daughter away while she's trying to hug you) and basically slaughter his way out of Elysium to make it back and stop Persephone.

The god's response to this is "How dare you kill Hades' wife! You will suffer eternally for this(once we're done with you)"

Ghost of Sparta doubles down on this by showing that Hades and Athena kidnapped Kratos' brother they were boys because they misinterpreted the prophecy that a "marked warrior would bring down Olympus"(Kratos later got tatoos in honor of his brother's birthmark) and rather than just imprison him or kill him they gave him to Thanatos to torture eternally for having the audacity to be a child of prophecy. Also Zeus put a curse on Kratos' mother that made her mutate into a gigantic monster if she ever tried to tell someone who Kratos' actual father was, so Kratos had to kill his mother at some point during the game.

The Pantheon in God of War were a gigantic pile of dicks before Kratos opened up Pandora's Box, the box just made them worse.

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Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.


Grimey Drawer
I mostly read the horrifying fluff for the Scion line, but didn't Legend have some annoyingly ill-defined drawback that made people increasingly likely to become pawns of your developing personal myth?

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