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Tempo 119 posted:Surely you'd just have to do one thing differently and it would break the sequence? Pick a different attack or get into a fight on a different screen or something. what it means is that the RNG is spitting out numbers in the same sequence every time. yeah you could do different actions or use the bug to try to chart which numbers pop up in what sequence or something to game but gently caress tyhat
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May 15, 2015 18:37
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I never confirmed it myself, but I remember reading that X's RNG system that determines the frequency of which encounters you get is somehow determined when you fire up the game. Resetting the game can switch things up and some people recommended doing so if you were not running into a certain monster much. For all I know, this was a rumor based on a placebo effect but if not then I wonder if it is related to how this bug came to be?
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May 15, 2015 18:38
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ImpAtom posted:I don't even understand how the RNG thing happens. That's absurd. Lots of games use predictable formulas that look like true randomness but aren't. Some are easy to figure out, while others are poo poo that either a dev leaked or the biggest sperg in the world figured out (like DQ9's Hoimi Table for rigging loot drops).
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May 15, 2015 18:38
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Tempo 119 posted:Surely you'd just have to do one thing differently and it would break the sequence? Pick a different attack or get into a fight on a different screen or something. The issue isn't just battle actions (though that is also an annoying problem since it can force sub-optimal strategies), it is a huge bar to farming items, spheres, since it might prevent you from getting specific encounters you need in an area. Say you want to farm Strength Spheres. The best way to do that is to capture Ruminant monsters to make Juggernaut in the Arena. But maybe your system randomizes the encounter for the region you're trying to capture them in and only one of the, I'm picking this number from nowhere, 200 encounter locations (that have now been fixed by the RNG) has a ruminant. So you can't just run around. Now you need to somehow find this one specific square to get that monster. This also applies if you are trying to get EXP from a particular monster, get a particular item, etc. It's terrible. Edit: on top of that, it makes completing difficult encounters much less rewarding when you know how they will play out every time. There isn't the same sense of overcoming a challenge when you can count on the enemy doing the exact same thing with the exact same result every time. Now you know to heal Auron before his 3rd turn comes around since the enemy's attack will do enough to kill him. TravelLog fucked around with this message at 18:46 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 18:41
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Evil Fluffy posted:Lots of games use predictable formulas that look like true randomness but aren't. Some are easy to figure out, while others are poo poo that either a dev leaked or the biggest sperg in the world figured out (like DQ9's Hoimi Table for rigging loot drops). Oh no, I get that. I mean I don't get how you make that specific bug without noticing it. It's super blatant.
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May 15, 2015 18:44
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Evil Fluffy posted:Lots of games use predictable formulas that look like true randomness but aren't. Some are easy to figure out, while others are poo poo that either a dev leaked or the biggest sperg in the world figured out (like DQ9's Hoimi Table for rigging loot drops). Yeah, you can stumble upon this sort of thing a lot when save state spamming on emulators. I remember once when I had way too much free time on my hands and I decided that just HAD to have the Robe of Lords from chocobo hot and cold as early as possible, but there was no way that I was going to save up those points the normal way. So, I used save states to figure out exactly when the game determines where the next item was going to be hidden. I don't recall clearly but I believe that it runs that calculation the moment after you press the button and your chocobo goes K-KWEHHH!!! when it finds the current item that you are searching for. Took me about 10 minutes to figure this out but it saved me a ridiculous amount of time. I'm still ashamed that I spent the time to figure it out at all though lol.
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May 15, 2015 18:47
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TravelLog posted:The issue isn't just battle actions (though that is also an annoying problem since it can force sub-optimal strategies), it is a huge bar to farming items, spheres, since it might prevent you from getting specific encounters you need in an area. Say you want to farm Strength Spheres. The best way to do that is to capture Ruminant monsters to make Juggernaut in the Arena. But maybe your system randomizes the encounter for the region you're trying to capture them in and only one of the, I'm picking this number from nowhere, 200 encounter locations (that have now been fixed by the RNG) has a ruminant. So you can't just run around. Now you need to somehow find this one specific square to get that monster. You could have been hosed over by the encounter tables like that anyway, and the only reason you'd try (and now fail) to reset them is if you knew what they'd been set to, which you don't. I seriously think the music thing is the bigger issue here, games drive me up the wall when they do that. Hell, FFX had enough of it anyway with the battle theme. Dat dadat dadat dat dat daaaa.
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May 15, 2015 18:55
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The RNG thing also sucks massively if you want to do all the monster capturing in late game.
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May 15, 2015 18:59
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Tempo 119 posted:Surely you'd just have to do one thing differently and it would break the sequence? Pick a different attack or get into a fight on a different screen or something. An RPG like FFX with no randomization is terrible and I almost wonder how many RPGs you play. I found this same fixed randomness playing with save states on the Pokemon TCG on GB as a teen, but this is appalling.
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May 15, 2015 19:19
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Someone forgot to call srand() at regular intervals, clearly.
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May 15, 2015 19:22
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Pyroxene Stigma posted:An RPG like FFX with no randomization is terrible and I almost wonder how many RPGs you play. I dunno, Golden Sun had some nearly-fixed RNG states for farming super-rare equipment. It didn't suffer for it.
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May 15, 2015 19:23
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Pyroxene Stigma posted:An RPG like FFX with no randomization is terrible and I almost wonder how many RPGs you play. I can honestly say I don't play a lot of RPGs where it's necessary to quit out and reload all the time for better dice rolls.
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May 15, 2015 19:31
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Tempo 119 posted:I can honestly say I don't play a lot of RPGs where it's necessary to quit out and reload all the time for better dice rolls. I respect that, it's a special level of gaming hell sometimes!
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May 15, 2015 19:34
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Tempo 119 posted:I can honestly say I don't play a lot of RPGs where it's necessary to quit out and reload all the time for better dice rolls. Normally it isn't. Most of the dice rolls that I have either read about or figured out on my own are primarily tied to the system clock as a variable that is used and constantly read by the code to come up with some random number.
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May 15, 2015 19:38
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Etrian Odyssey (or at least the third game, I can't remember if the others do it) only reseeds the RNG if you do a hard reset, save in town, or die. Of course, you're not really doing a lot of soft resetting there in the first place, so it doesn't really matter in the end.
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May 15, 2015 19:38
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I imagine the issue here is that it makes the encounters feel even more canned than normal. If every time you reload, you get the same set of encounters in a row, or even worse, it never comes up with a new seed so every time you go into an area, you get the same set of encounters, I could understand people getting really peeved out how stale it is.
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May 15, 2015 20:01
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Re: random seeds. No one has ever been able to answer for me if the weird zodiac spear thing in FF12 was an actual code someone programmed into the game intentionally or just a really dumb manipulation of some random seed thing someone figured out.
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May 15, 2015 20:06
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Re: random seeds. You mean manipulating the RNG to get the infinite Zodiac Spear chest to a. spawn at all (10%), b. contain an item rather than gil (10%), and c. have that item be Zodiac Spear (10%)? Then yes, that's manipulation of the not-actually-random number by knowing how it works and thereby forcing specific values at specific times. This can be done with any chest in the game, as far as I know; it's just that people pay a lot more attention to the Zodiac Spear because its odds are extra bullshit in the first place. You can deliberately spread and abolish specific card rules in FF8 with (if properly executed) 100% accuracy by a similar method. I expect there are plenty of other examples of manipulating RNG to get what you want. In all cases it's from people figuring out how the RNG works and then reverse engineering what to do to get the result they want.
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May 15, 2015 20:27
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Vil posted:
I remember actually doing this once. It's the kind of thing that makes you question why you're playing in the first place, haha.
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May 15, 2015 20:39
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Even the FF12 thing, manipulating the RNG involves a somewhat involved process of figuring out which number pattern you are currently on. See, basically all RNGs in games are pseudo-random number generators. They're typically one or more sets of algorithms to screw with numbers in a predictable fashion to produce a seemingly random string of numbers. These algorithms tend to begin with a "seed"- something that hopefully has some semblance of randomness. Usually it comes from an internal clock on a computer system, as it is difficult to predict what microsecond the seed will be pulled. However, given a finite number of seeds, the game tends to produce a corresponding finite number of number patterns. So with a lot of effort, you can figure out which number pattern the game is using, and determine where extremely low or high numbers will show up in each pattern. My guess is that the PS3 version called a specific function call or system clock to get its seed, and that they didn't change it for the PS4 version. But I'm guessing the PS4 does not have the same function calls or whatever, so the RNG will always produce the same set of numbers in the same order, because the Seed always defaults to 0 or the like. So while most RNG systems can be manipulated with a lot of testing and research and effort, this one sounds like it requires no manipulation at all. Of course, this will be highly abusable if they don't fix it- people will quickly figure out what sequence of actions you can take to "use up" bad numbers and always get the ultra-rare drops or ultra-rare spawns or give Yojimbo a 100% kill rate.
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May 15, 2015 20:51
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Schwartzcough posted:Even the FF12 thing, manipulating the RNG involves a somewhat involved process of figuring out which number pattern you are currently on. That latter part sounds cool and I hope some crazy people figure it all out and develop crazy strats.
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May 15, 2015 20:53
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Schwartzcough posted:My guess is that the PS3 version called a specific function call or system clock to get its seed, and that they didn't change it for the PS4 version. But I'm guessing the PS4 does not have the same function calls or whatever, so the RNG will always produce the same set of numbers in the same order, because the Seed always defaults to 0 or the like. This is probably correct. Some function or Case statement is returning a default value which only exists to prevent a crash.
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May 15, 2015 20:57
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Has anyone made it far enough into the PS4 version to say whether or not it's detrimental in some of the post game stuff? If the fixed RNG doesn't hurt monster capturing and stat maxing then I'm not too concerned about it. It is pretty disappointing though, hopefully they can address it with a patch.
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May 15, 2015 21:01
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Meridian posted:Has anyone made it far enough into the PS4 version to say whether or not it's detrimental in some of the post game stuff? The fixed RNG shouldn't impact monster capturing and stat maxing any more than a standard unlucky sequence of encounters would without the bug. However, it does sound like it could potentially impact how enjoyable bosses and especially super bosses are. It also might impact loot drops in a way? I couldn't tell for certain from that article alone. In the end, if you don't notice a detrimental impact to your experience then I suppose it does not matter. I do not think it outright prevents earning progress.
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May 15, 2015 21:20
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I don't think I ever RNG manipulated Triple Triad to get rid of rules. I did something else; I think that if you decline playing after challenging them enough times, they get stuck at the default rules or something and can't spread anything. I wonder where I learned that...?
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May 15, 2015 21:21
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well I guess I'm glad I was just intending to pick it up for X-2 but that's mad weird
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May 15, 2015 21:23
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Xavier434 posted:The fixed RNG shouldn't impact monster capturing and stat maxing any more than a standard unlucky sequence of encounters would without the bug. However, it does sound like it could potentially impact how enjoyable bosses and especially super bosses are. It also might impact loot drops in a way? I couldn't tell for certain from that article alone. In the end, if you don't notice a detrimental impact to your experience then I suppose it does not matter. I do not think it outright prevents earning progress. I don't know if it has been mentioned already but there is a video that someone posted that does the first few turns of the fight against Penance twice. He steals once, then does Wakka's and Tidus' overdrives. In both battles the steal attempt was successful and the multi-hit over drives hit the same targets the same number of times. Damage was a bit variable because of the input time, but identical otherwise. That being said, having watched players do that fight in the past it all becomes a pretty straight forward sequence of kill arms, attack body, use mix anyway so I'm not sure how big of a deal that really is.
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May 15, 2015 21:33
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Meridian posted:I don't know if it has been mentioned already but there is a video that someone posted that does the first few turns of the fight against Penance twice. He steals once, then does Wakka's and Tidus' overdrives. In both battles the steal attempt was successful and the multi-hit over drives hit the same targets the same number of times. Damage was a bit variable because of the input time, but identical otherwise. That's kind of crazy that someone has reached Penance on the PS4 version which has been out for like 3 days I got the platinum in like 95 hours and fighting Penance was basically the last thing I did
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May 15, 2015 21:47
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I just tested it. It does indeed seem to be seeding the RNG with a constant value every time you load the game. Load game, go to same place, get same battle. I tried advancing the RNG by going somewhere else, doing a battle, then saving in my original spot. I loaded up my new save with my potentially-advanced RNG, and it it gave me the original battle. Meaning, the seed itself isn't being saved. This is potentially exploitable if somebody finds a quick out of combat way to do a single RNG call, so we can put the RNG where we want it for a battle. Filthy Monkey fucked around with this message at 21:53 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 21:49
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Help Im Alive posted:That's kind of crazy that someone has reached Penance on the PS4 version which has been out for like 3 days there's cross-save with the ps3 version so they may have just had a save
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May 15, 2015 21:52
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Vil posted:You can deliberately spread and abolish specific card rules in FF8 with (if properly executed) 100% accuracy by a similar method. I expect there are plenty of other examples of manipulating RNG to get what you want. In all cases it's from people figuring out how the RNG works and then reverse engineering what to do to get the result they want. Couldn't you avoid the spread of new rules through pure stubbornness anyway? I seem to remember that people in different regions would propose new rules occasionally and if you kept challenging them and backing out enough times they would give up eventually and play by whatever rules you were using before.
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May 15, 2015 21:56
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epitasis posted:there's cross-save with the ps3 version so they may have just had a save Oh ok my bad
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May 15, 2015 21:57
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epitasis posted:there's cross-save with the ps3 version so they may have just had a save That's likely. I picked it up on launch and have been playing it pretty hard and only just now got to Mushroom Rock Road. Granted, I spent a lot of time grinding out over drives and hi-potions but still. With what others were saying earlier, that the issue may have something to do with function calls, is this something that can be addressed? Putting aside whether or not they're likely to do so.
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May 15, 2015 21:58
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I've been experimenting, only a few hours in though. Saved all my footage but yeah it's the same battle over and over again, not super interesting. I wasn't able to test certain scenarios because my save files are all at towns or bosses, so there's no easy way to, for example, see if getting into a fight on one screen affects the encounter table on the next. It does affect the outcome of the encounter though (testable on a boss). Basically if you make a different move, or get into battle on a different screen and come back, you'll reroll what happens in the fight, if not the fight itself. Leaving the screen and coming back without doing anything doesn't change it. Playing Blitzball doesn't change it, except possibly the pre-fight banter for whatever reason? Local saves and imported cross-saves behave the same.
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May 15, 2015 21:58
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Guys, I miss Curtain Call DLC.
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May 16, 2015 03:52
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I bet working with a single RNG state could result in some cool speed run strats or something, since it's a standardized game now. Except I imagine a "speed run" of FFX would be in the double digit hours anyway and mad boring.
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May 16, 2015 03:56
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YIKES Stay Gooned posted:I bet working with a single RNG state could result in some cool speed run strats or something, since it's a standardized game now. Except I imagine a "speed run" of FFX would be in the double digit hours anyway and mad boring. Caracarn's run is like 9h55m but it uses a seeded file with all 26 al bhed primers to get 99 Underdog's Secrets from Rin (for mixing Quartet of 9 and Trio of 9999).
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May 16, 2015 04:35
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Schwartzcough posted:My guess is that the PS3 version called a specific function call or system clock to get its seed, and that they didn't change it for the PS4 version. But I'm guessing the PS4 does not have the same function calls or whatever, so the RNG will always produce the same set of numbers in the same order, because the Seed always defaults to 0 or the like. This might be the case. The people playing the original game on a PS2 emulator have ran into similar issues.
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May 16, 2015 13:44
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i would like to argue that the crystal bearers is the best final fantasy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNCWmZwNJSo
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May 16, 2015 18:19
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ImpAtom posted:Oh no, I get that. I mean I don't get how you make that specific bug without noticing it. It's super blatant. I think it's more "I don't care". FF5 Advance has a similar bug where if you reload a save you'll always fight the same encounters in order, you could abuse this to fight the rare encounters that give loads of AP. But honestly unless you are reloading something from a save over and over you probably will not notice.
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May 16, 2015 18:42
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