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i disagree with that, also, but that's an argument for the typemoon thread
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May 24, 2015 18:16
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Raenir Salazar posted:Dude at this point your both (A) willfully ignoring the on screen evidence that resolves the questions you have and (B) Kinda not getting that by being an adaption its not going to show or explain 100% of everything the VN did because they just can't, it's impossible. It assumes either you played the VN, or are willing to play the VN or read a Wiki to figure out the gaps. That's a basic requirement when watching any adaption. I'm sorry, but this is completely incorrect. An adaptation should work without needing to refer to a wiki or the original source. If you can't make sense of an adaptation without that, then the adaptation has failed, full stop. F/Z worked fine without needing to read the book or reading the Type Moon wiki, UBW should be similar. I'm aware why it's not, but again, that comes down to the problems of FSN being in a state where you really can't adapt it without these problems. F/Z is encapsulated into a single book, Shirou's progression and the development of other characters is scattered around in 3 routes of a VN and they're only adapting one of them, and the middle one to boot. It's why I'd prefer a full rewrite to make FSN actually work properly in an anime context, as it is now it just feels like an animated companion to the VN and only really intended for people who have read it. Perhaps this is the point, but to me, an adaptation should serve as a substitute for the source material, as I have no intention of reading the VN and was hoping the anime would work as an alternative. Raenir Salazar posted:Shirou was given Avalon in Fate, this was explained in Fate, its expected that you should know this, it's understandable if you don't, but it isn't a legitimate criticism when your kinda going out of your way to make it one. My problems with Avalon are more than just when the information is given. Yes, it's in Fate, great, I haven't read it. I've watched F/Z, but F/Z doesn't state where Avalon ended up. UBW shows you, sort of, but it's not clearly spelled out until this episode which is my problem. F/Z was very clear on what Avalon was and where it was, UBW was not. The other issue is that since the reveal for Avalon was really intended for this episode, it works as a retroactive justification for Shirou's constant stupidity. He can fight Servants all this time because he has a infinite healing item in his back pocket, and conveniently enough, it's been there the whole time. Like I said before, it's about application, and F/Z utilized Avalon in a much better fashion. Raenir Salazar posted:So in the fights so far, Shirou died to Lancer and was saved by Rin (the 99%). Shirou didn't fight Berserker, that was 100% Saber. Shirou would have died to Rider but she was just toying with him. Shirou also didn't fight Caster and was certainly dead if it wasn't for Archer's intervention. Archer didn't manage to kill Shirou then because Arguably he wasn't really trying to and Shirou has good reflexes. Shirou almost certainly would've died to Caster's spells if it weren't for Rin expending her gems entirely. Shirou would have died to Gilgamesh if Gilgamesh cared about it enough. It's well established that Archer also isn't trying to just outright kill Shirou but trying to make him admit he's wrong about his ideal. This is the other problem with Shirou fighting Servants. This is what I mean by narrative dictating his survival, he should die, but somehow he always manages to make it out due to the Servants making stupid decisions. It's a compounded issue, Shirou's stupidity combined with the Servants seemingly unable or unwilling to kill the protagonist. This is why F/Z works better, because it doesn't ever create this scenario in the first place. I suppose part of my problem is that UBW, is again, mostly just a bunch of teenagers screwing around. No one seems to be taking this the least bit seriously (Except Caster and Gilgamesh I guess), and thus it makes it difficult to get invested in the narrative when it's doing that. And even when they do get serious (Rin and Shirou attempting to assault Caster), they do so with stupid plans that are doomed to fail and only work out because the narrative pulls them out of it.
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May 24, 2015 18:17
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Endorph posted:i disagree with that, also, but that's an argument for the typemoon thread EDIT: Oh Lordy another one of these posts.
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May 24, 2015 18:18
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I only use bitter in regards to Shirou where he is at the end of Fate and UBW. In HF he has to confront his ideal and make a significant change. Even though he makes the right choice, he does so kicking and screaming. He walks from everything a better person because of it, but he has to make a tough choice that I think the Shirous of other paths would refuse to make. So yeah, maybe bitter isn't the right word. I wasn't necessarily tying it to maturity or adulthood, but definitely to Shirou's other "selves."
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May 24, 2015 18:20
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Lord Justice posted:This is the other problem with Shirou fighting Servants. This is what I mean by narrative dictating his survival, he should die, but somehow he always manages to make it out due to the Servants making stupid decisions. It's a compounded issue, Shirou's stupidity combined with the Servants seemingly unable or unwilling to kill the protagonist. This is why F/Z works better, because it doesn't ever create this scenario in the first place. I suppose part of my problem is that UBW, is again, mostly just a bunch of teenagers screwing around. No one seems to be taking this the least bit seriously (Except Caster and Gilgamesh I guess), and thus it makes it difficult to get invested in the narrative when it's doing that. And even when they do get serious (Rin and Shirou attempting to assault Caster), they do so with stupid plans that are doomed to fail and only work out because the narrative pulls them out of it. EDIT: Oh and all the assassins fought Iskandar head on rather than leaving any back to kill masters or something, also a contrivance. If you found this post annoying, understand you're looking into a mirror. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 18:29 on May 24, 2015 |
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May 24, 2015 18:26
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I'm still waiting patiently for Shiro and Rin to bone.
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May 24, 2015 18:28
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littleorv posted:I'm still waiting patiently for Shiro and Rin to bone. Unlike how not contrived it was that mages are dumb and don't use modern weapons or take that into account, unlike my hero Kiritsugu.
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May 24, 2015 18:38
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Twiddy posted:F/Z doesn't ever create this scenario in the first place except when Rider decides to save Saber because of who he is (which using your interpretation is also a contrivance), when Lancer backs out instead of just killing Saber because he wants an honorable dual (which under your definition is also a contrivance), when Gilgamesh just doesn't wreck everybody the two times where he shows up because he's not taking poo poo seriously (which I guess is also a contrivance). You're conflating two different things, Servant-Human and Servant-Servant interactions. The scenario I was describing was Servant-Human, which doesn't occur in F/Z beyond a few brief examples. Part of it is that I feel F/Z also backs up its "contrivances" with proper narrative, UBW just feels cheap a lot of the time and Shirou just survives because he's supposed to.
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May 24, 2015 18:41
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Lord Justice posted:You're conflating two different things, Servant-Human and Servant-Servant interactions. The scenario I was describing was Servant-Human, which doesn't occur in F/Z beyond a few brief examples. Part of it is that I feel F/Z also backs up its "contrivances" with proper narrative, UBW just feels cheap a lot of the time and Shirou just survives because he's supposed to.
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May 24, 2015 18:44
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The HF movie better have 60 minutes of boning or I'm going to be disappointed.
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May 24, 2015 18:45
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depends on how faithful of an adaption it is
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May 24, 2015 18:45
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littleorv posted:The HF movie better have 60 minutes of boning or I'm going to be disappointed.
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May 24, 2015 18:46
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Twiddy posted:Yes those are two entirely different things and not two characters interacting.
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May 24, 2015 19:01
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Cake Attack posted:depends on how faithful of an adaption it is You're horrible. I like you.
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May 24, 2015 19:10
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Twiddy posted:Joke's on you, it's going to be 60 minutes of cooking. Food porn is good too.
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May 24, 2015 19:14
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Lancer suddenly rising and killing Kirei got a pretty big "holy poo poo  " from me.
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May 24, 2015 19:37
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quote:I'm sorry, but this is completely incorrect. An adaptation should work without needing to refer to a wiki or the original source. This is only true if the adaption is somehow expected to be a stand alone work. This is obviously not the case with UBW and most Nasu verse adaptations. This is entire paragraph is really just you projecting what you feel an "adaption" should be as some sort of universe rule when obviously there's no rule that says that an adaption needs to be able to substitute for the original! quote:I'd prefer a full rewrite to make FSN actually work properly in an anime context "Studio DEEN". (Also you're being incredibly pretentious) quote:Yes, it's in Fate, great, I haven't read it. quote:I've watched F/Z, but F/Z doesn't state where Avalon ended up. Answer precedes question. quote:This is the other problem with Shirou fighting Servants. This is what I mean by narrative dictating his survival, he should die, but somehow he always manages to make it out due to the Servants making stupid decisions. It's a compounded issue, Shirou's stupidity combined with the Servants seemingly unable or unwilling to kill the protagonist. This is why F/Z works better, because it doesn't ever create this scenario in the first place. I suppose part of my problem is that UBW, is again, mostly just a bunch of teenagers screwing around. No one seems to be taking this the least bit seriously (Except Caster and Gilgamesh I guess), and thus it makes it difficult to get invested in the narrative when it's doing that. And even when they do get serious (Rin and Shirou attempting to assault Caster), they do so with stupid plans that are doomed to fail and only work out because the narrative pulls them out of it. This isn't a video game. You're really veering into bullshit territory where you're claiming a structured narrative isn't one just because you say so. Shirou making intelligent decisions ala Kiritsugu results in him dying. If he acted like Kiritsugu even once Illya would've had his head. There's just so much context you need and you're going out of your way to ignore it because FSN has a non-traditional narrative structure. You're trying to make this basically a Power Levels argument by proxy when its a narrative with characters with their own motivations; some of it we saw in Fate; others we don't until Heaven's Feel. You also don't seem to be paying very close attention; the "screwing around" is Rin for the most part working hard trying to figure out or otherwise bait another Servant/Master into attacking her and revealing herself. That is until Caster becomes too much of a threat to ignore, but one she couldn't waltz into and attack (because it would've been suicide and Archer was acting funny). Gilgamesh isn't taking things seriously either, he doesn't want the grail and doesn't care if anyone gets their wish, he just wants to see the world burn as a result and rule over its survivors; he wouldn't be wasting his time wandering around with Shinji if he did and is mostly just humouring Rin. quote:And even when they do get serious (Rin and Shirou attempting to assault Caster), they do so with stupid plans that are doomed to fail and only work out because the narrative pulls them out of it. It wasn't a stupid plan. Though it was certainly a extremely risky one. It mostly worked remember? Rin knew she could hold her own vs. Caster; Shirou knew he could hold his own against Kuzuki; he just underestimated how long he could last for. You shifting the goalposts at this point.
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May 24, 2015 19:37
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Twiddy posted:Joke's on you, it's going to be 60 minutes of cooking. The entire thing will happen after the story takes place, and just be 60 minutes of cooking with 30 minutes of flashbacks interspersed throughout the thing.
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May 24, 2015 19:38
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Shneak posted:Lancer suddenly rising and killing Kirei got a pretty big "holy poo poo Also for all the F/Z only viewers, look back at what specifically killed off Lancer in F/Z. That was clearly an intentional reference to this moment and shows that Diarmuid is kind of a little bitch compared to F/SN's Lancer. RIP
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May 24, 2015 19:48
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LJ's hero Urobuchi actually decried the idea of adaptations replacing the original.
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May 24, 2015 19:49
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Twiddy posted:Oh hell yeah. I don't think anybody is gonna deny that Lancer moment is rad. It's rad in the VN, too. Seriously, look up CuChulain if you haven't, he goes out like a badass there, too. That's kind of his thing. Ohh I thought they were the same guy this whole time.
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May 24, 2015 19:58
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Not enough love for the quick cut between Lancer lightly poking Shinji and Shinji running away screaming.
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May 24, 2015 19:59
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Rodyle posted:Not enough love for the quick cut between Lancer lightly poking Shinji and Shinji running away screaming. He should have just stabbed him all the way.
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May 24, 2015 20:02
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Who wants Shinji goo all over their legendary weapon?
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May 24, 2015 20:03
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There Bias Two posted:Ohh I thought they were the same guy this whole time.
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May 24, 2015 20:04
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There Bias Two posted:Ohh I thought they were the same guy this whole time. BTW (this is just some background info about the Fate universe that isn't that important for this route or HF, so I guess I won't spoiler it unless someone requests it) Lancer was summoned by a contestant in this Holy Grail War named Bazette. Kotomine killed her and took her command crests, allowing him to control Lancer. She has a lot of characteristics similar to Rin, AKA is super similar to the type of woman Lancer says he likes. Being Lancer is suffering.
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May 24, 2015 20:09
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Endorph posted:they have completely different personalities and voices. also f/sn lancer doesn't dual wield. their armor is kind of similar but their faces are different too. how did you think this The same way people in the last UBW thread thought that Rider and Caster looked similar. Although they immediately revealed Lancer's true name in like the first episode so unless Cu Chulainn looks the same as Diarmuid ua Duibhne then I don't know.
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May 24, 2015 20:09
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Cu would of course more or less get his wish when he was summoned in Fate/Extra, where he is Rin's Servant. I guess to make up for it though they had to give him a really silly Tron outfit.
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May 24, 2015 20:11
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I wish Lancer could have thrown out that "Even in my current state, I could handle a thousand of you" line he had in the VN at Shinji. That was one of my favorite lines in the entirety of the VN. In any case, yeah, I thought this episode was really good. Definitely one of the better ones in the show so far, actually. stay night is in a weird spot where so much is conveyed by the text, you really can't get around it while trying to do an adaptation of it. This part was always going to have to be wordy, and for that reason I don't have a too terrible much to complain about in regards to how the last couple episodes have gone. The Archer vs. Shirou fight is the plot climax of the entire route, even if there are a few loose ends that I assume will be handled in the last couple episodes, since time is running out. The flashy fights are fun, but not every episode can just be fancy fights and superpowers.
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May 24, 2015 20:12
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Episode 20 VS the original opening.
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May 24, 2015 21:15
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This anime is mildly confusing, reading this thread makes it even more so but all this conversation helps to make me understand what the hell is going on and why. 
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May 24, 2015 21:31
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Here's some gifs     lol kotomine
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May 25, 2015 08:34
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I like Lancer's unnecessary flourish gonna stab you dead so fast I have time to show off
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May 25, 2015 08:49
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Honestly, Kotomine and Shirou both suffer from their best stories involving dodging multiple premature endings. Kotomine just can't catch a break until Heaven's Feel, really.
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May 25, 2015 08:50
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Blockhouse posted:I like Lancer's unnecessary flourish My favorite is still how they adapted Tsubame Gaeshi (aka that thing Assassin did).
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May 25, 2015 08:55
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Shinjobi posted:Honestly, Kotomine and Shirou both suffer from their best stories involving dodging multiple premature endings. Kotomine just can't catch a break until Heaven's Feel, really. Kotomine is so much like Shirou in every way. Except Evil.
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May 25, 2015 08:57
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Rodyle posted:LJ's hero Urobuchi actually decried the idea of adaptations replacing the original. I consider Urobuchi to be one of the best writers of the early 21st Century, but that doesn't mean I agree with everything he says. In this case I feel he's only half right. Raenir Salazar posted:This is only true if the adaption is somehow expected to be a stand alone work. This is obviously not the case with UBW and most Nasu verse adaptations. This is entire paragraph is really just you projecting what you feel an "adaption" should be as some sort of universe rule when obviously there's no rule that says that an adaption needs to be able to substitute for the original! Obviously there's no universal rule that an adaptation should substitute the original, my point moreso is between a good adaptation and a bad one. To me, an adaptation should be able to stand on its own without needing a crutch from the source material or a wiki, and if it does, it is not a good adaptation. F/Z, except for the ending, is basically the quintessential example of this, because it works perfectly well as a stand alone work. You don't need to read the light novel to understand F/Z. Part of the reason I feel this is important is because of accessibility reasons, I.E, it translates a work into a more accessible format. F/SN as a VN is going to be a very large work which requires a significant investment of time to get into, while an anime does not. Essentially, this is why I bothered with UBW in the first place, I wanted to see what F/SN was about without having to read reams of text about teenage drama and Eros relationships. I don't really like VNs in general either, I've found they work very poorly as narrative delivery vehicles. Raenir Salazar posted:"Studio DEEN". (Also you're being incredibly pretentious) Just because DEEN screwed up their attempt at putting the routes together doesn't mean it can't be done or is necessarily a bad idea. Raenir Salazar posted:This isn't a video game. You're really veering into bullshit territory where you're claiming a structured narrative isn't one just because you say so. Shirou making intelligent decisions ala Kiritsugu results in him dying. If he acted like Kiritsugu even once Illya would've had his head. There's just so much context you need and you're going out of your way to ignore it because FSN has a non-traditional narrative structure. This is pretty much the other problem with this narrative. From what I'm aware, the VN does have Shirou actually making intelligent decisions, then killing him for having the temerity of going against its plot. This is a fairly major problem - It means that Shirou's stupidity is actively enforced by the narrative, and makes everything feel incredibly artificial. Shirou can't do anything intelligent because it kills him, so he does something stupid instead, and the narrative allows that. Essentially, It's the exact opposite of how Kiritsugu worked. Perhaps that's the point, but again: It makes for bad characterization. As for the rest of it, it's a problem with the VN's structure, too much of UBW is based in routes we either aren't going to see (unless you watch whatever DEEN made), or haven't seen yet. You can make a case for HF serving as a "sequel" in a sense, but the issue is, it's just a different way of completing the 5th War in the narrative, and the development of the characters is too separated in terms of the adaptation. Basically, the development should have been here and part of the narrative here, not separated into another narrative entirely. Raenir Salazar posted:Gilgamesh isn't taking things seriously either, he doesn't want the grail and doesn't care if anyone gets their wish, he just wants to see the world burn as a result and rule over its survivors; he wouldn't be wasting his time wandering around with Shinji if he did and is mostly just humouring Rin. I think the question here is, does Gilgamesh need to take things seriously? He eviscerated Heracles while barely having to move, and no one else around is going to offer any kind of challenge to the King of Heroes. In other words, Gilgamesh gets a pass on not being serious about the war because he really doesn't need to be, he's far too powerful and competent for anyone to come close to touching him. Incidently, this also makes Gilgamesh the best character around at this point (even if he is a giant prick), and is the only reason I'm bothering to continue watching UBW.
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May 25, 2015 09:15
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Lord Justice posted:Obviously there's no universal rule that an adaptation should substitute the original, my point moreso is between a good adaptation and a bad one. To me, an adaptation should be able to stand on its own without needing a crutch from the source material or a wiki, and if it does, it is not a good adaptation. F/Z, except for the ending, is basically the quintessential example of this, because it works perfectly well as a stand alone work. You don't need to read the light novel to understand F/Z. Part of the reason I feel this is important is because of accessibility reasons, I.E, it translates a work into a more accessible format. F/SN as a VN is going to be a very large work which requires a significant investment of time to get into, while an anime does not. Essentially, this is why I bothered with UBW in the first place, I wanted to see what F/SN was about without having to read reams of text about teenage drama and Eros relationships. I don't really like VNs in general either, I've found they work very poorly as narrative delivery vehicles. quote:This is pretty much the other problem with this narrative. From what I'm aware, the VN does have Shirou actually making intelligent decisions, then killing him for having the temerity of going against its plot. This is a fairly major problem - It means that Shirou's stupidity is actively enforced by the narrative, and makes everything feel incredibly artificial. Shirou can't do anything intelligent because it kills him, so he does something stupid instead, and the narrative allows that. Essentially, It's the exact opposite of how Kiritsugu worked. Perhaps that's the point, but again: It makes for bad characterization. As for the rest of it, it's a problem with the VN's structure, too much of UBW is based in routes we either aren't going to see (unless you watch whatever DEEN made), or haven't seen yet. You can make a case for HF serving as a "sequel" in a sense, but the issue is, it's just a different way of completing the 5th War in the narrative, and the development of the characters is too separated in terms of the adaptation. Basically, the development should have been here and part of the narrative here, not separated into another narrative entirely. quote:I think the question here is, does Gilgamesh need to take things seriously? He eviscerated Heracles while barely having to move, and no one else around is going to offer any kind of challenge to the King of Heroes. In other words, Gilgamesh gets a pass on not being serious about the war because he really doesn't need to be, he's far too powerful and competent for anyone to come close to touching him. Incidently, this also makes Gilgamesh the best character around at this point (even if he is a giant prick), and is the only reason I'm bothering to continue watching UBW. EDIT: Goddamn I just had a good discussion about this franchise in the other thread this is not worth it.
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May 25, 2015 09:34
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Lord Justice posted:Just because DEEN screwed up their attempt at putting the routes together doesn't mean it can't be done or is necessarily a bad idea. You could theoretically put Fate and UBW together, but you really, really can't mix in HF. And not just because it would make Shirou's character completely nonsensical.
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May 25, 2015 09:39
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BlitzBlast posted:You could theoretically put Fate and UBW together, but you really, really can't mix in HF. And not just because it would make Shirou's character completely nonsensical.
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May 25, 2015 09:48
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