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S.T.C.A. posted:Looking at things is so important in Qud. I just lost two awesome lavatinkers to easily avoidable deaths because I'm not used to tiles and "man the L key is so far away." Totally swapping L and X before I play again, before I opt to just go back to ascii tiles in a fit of not having to re-learn things. Agreed, I usually bind look to 0 since I play with the numberpad.
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Jun 4, 2015 17:32
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Are the roguelike conference vids archived somewhere yet? Madjack's session had a broken link to a 30 second video.
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Jun 4, 2015 18:19
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victrix posted:Are the roguelike conference vids archived somewhere yet? Madjack's session had a broken link to a 30 second video. They should be fixed now. Here's mine: http://www.twitch.tv/irdc_usa/c/6781057
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Jun 4, 2015 18:56
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madjackmcmad posted:They should be fixed now. Here's mine: http://www.twitch.tv/irdc_usa/c/6781057 I really enjoyed every one a lot (even madjackmcmad's)! If you have a vauge interest in roguelikes (maybe this is the wrong thread) I'd recommend checking them all out.
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Jun 4, 2015 18:59
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Unormal posted:I really enjoyed every one a lot (even madjackmcmad's)! If you have a vauge interest in roguelikes (maybe this is the wrong thread) I'd recommend checking them all out. Yeah it was a pretty good time. I've never be a high-falutin' academic, so some of the talks didn't quite resonate with me, but I'm always happy to see people tear into how they got things done and what they're trying down the road.
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Jun 4, 2015 19:06
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Angry Diplomat posted:DoomRL has a hotkey that brings up a clear, easy-to-read list of every recipe you've discovered though. It's a little annoying before you've discovered everything, but once you've got the list mostly or completely filled out you basically don't need the wiki anymore since you can reference that stuff in-game. The in-game list doesn't tell you what they actually do, though, and some of them are hard to remember (the Ripper is a better chainsaw, but better how?) or actively misleading (the Fireproof Boots are only +30% fire resistance; the Environmental Boots are better at lava and if you want to be actually fireproof you want either the Lava Boots or the Cerberus Boots). That said, I actually like the DoomRL crafting system. There aren't that many recipes, and the components are all useful in their own right -- ok, modpacks aren't useful without something to attach them to, but you aren't hauling around giant piles of stuff that's useful only for crafting.
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Jun 4, 2015 19:12
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"Elegantly minimalist yet surprisingly nuanced" is a big part of DoomRL's design ethos, and I feel like the crafting system fits into that nicely. It's still a little finicky in some cases, but I can't think of a good way to ameliorate that without losing more than you'd gain.ToxicFrog posted:hauling around giant piles of stuff that's useful only for crafting. Cataclysm is extremely guilty of this. It's a fun game, and the crafting system, for all its faults, is pretty great if only because there's so much poo poo you can make and it enables a ton of different playstyles. But if you want to craft anything relatively complex, you're going to need to make or acquire a lot of tools, many of which need batteries/thread/duct tape/charcoal/etc, and you're going to need a ridiculous crapton of raw materials and intermediate components. High-level Tailoring isn't too bad, at least, since you're basically working with rags, leather, Kevlar, Nomex, maybe plastic, and sometimes bones/chitin or metal and that's basically it; your tools are largely the same throughout. High-level Electronics mostly requires a soldering iron and a couple of hand tools, but the sheer profusion of bits and pieces you need to collect and make can get pretty awful. Then you get into high-level Fabrication and you need a big fuckoff forge, one or two other bulky semi-stationary installations, half a dozen precision tools, a bunch of rags and leather, and fifty kilograms of assorted salvage to make one thing. I enjoy it anyway because I am a masochist 
Angry Diplomat fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 19:34
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The Sil talk gave me an idea, anyone down for a monthly roguelike? Or maybe weekly so we can include roguelikes with a little less content/depth. The idea would be we'd have a roguelike each month/week to play through, talk about, try to get better at and celebrate wins for. Obviously this could be a separate thread since it might get a bit cluttered? Underlying commitment would be hey, play a few runs of it, post your thoughts/experience but less so then say, a roguelike thread.
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Jun 4, 2015 19:54
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I hate most crafting systems. This is closely related to my hatred for inventory systems. You what what 'inventory' is in relation to most jobs? A bunch of lovely sock sorting busywork no one wants to deal with, often farmed out to third party companies. That sums up inventory in many games quite well. Games with minimalist inventory systems, streamlined inventory management, or any other tools that ameliorate the 'six bags full of wow vendor trash loot and/or crafting materials' issue always get some free points from me.
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Jun 4, 2015 20:18
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victrix posted:I hate most crafting systems. This is closely related to my hatred for inventory systems. I would say Crawl does this well by not allowing you to sell items at shops, but when I really think about it it's still a mess. The number of times I have to run back to a stash on Lair:2 to swap out equipment or consolidate food stacks is asinine, as is having half your inventory spaces occupied from the get-go on a melee character just from what he has equipped. Although it would never work for a roguelike without destroying any semblance of challenge related to inventory, I liked the system in Pillars of Eternity. Stuff I actually wanted to cart around goes on the character, vendor trash goes immediately into the "stash" where it doesn't occupy any space and can be quickly sold en masse when I go back to town. Allows the player to play in an 'optimal' way (picking up and selling anything and everything they come across) without making it tedious to do so by having to constantly run back and forth. I also liked Torchlight's pet system for the same reason - load crap on pet, click button, receive money a minute later. No need to interrupt the flow of gameplay with town trips just to see 36 -2 swords of anal seepage.
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Jun 4, 2015 21:05
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i'm genuinely curious as to how long ago you last played crawl, because making stashes and poo poo hasn't even been remotely necessary for a long time
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Jun 4, 2015 21:10
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The entire concept of vendor trash is dumb. If you find an item that you don't want, you should just leave it on the ground, and the amount of items that get generated in the first place should be as low as possible without excessively restricting player options.
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Jun 4, 2015 21:37
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Angry Diplomat posted:Cataclysm is extremely guilty of this. It's a fun game, and the crafting system, for all its faults, is pretty great if only because there's so much poo poo you can make and it enables a ton of different playstyles. But if you want to craft anything relatively complex, you're going to need to make or acquire a lot of tools, many of which need batteries/thread/duct tape/charcoal/etc, and you're going to need a ridiculous crapton of raw materials and intermediate components. it was definitely a pain in the rear end until i built a vehicle with basically a 9x9 square of containers and recharging tools inside of it, since the game is merciful and checks for stuff within 1 tile's reach of you when crafting. and by the time you're done setting that up you'll have gained a ridiculous amount of mechanic skill as well!
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Jun 4, 2015 21:43
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Agent Kool-Aid posted:i'm genuinely curious as to how long ago you last played crawl, because making stashes and poo poo hasn't even been remotely necessary for a long time
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Jun 4, 2015 21:45
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Yeah, I've never made a stash in crawl for like... 2 years, probably? A year and a half? Something like that. As soon as item destruction was taken out it became unneeded, everything else just makes it even easier to go without.
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Jun 4, 2015 21:49
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pumpinglemma posted:To expand on this: items can't be destroyed by monster attacks any more, there's no longer a weight limit on carrying capacity, and all the fruits have been condensed into a single item slot so permafood takes up much less space. That being said, it's still useful to park and consolidate excess consumables, books, and swappable items into one spot.
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Jun 4, 2015 21:50
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Not really. I've never had so much actually useful consumables that I've felt a reason to do that. If you don't want a book, drop it on the spot. If you end up wanting it later(does not happen often), press ctrl-f. I maybe pick up items that I have dropped... twice a game, at most? It's not worth it.
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Jun 4, 2015 21:53
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The first guy to come up with the idea that you should be able to sell items should be drawn and quartered. So many games, ruined.
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Jun 4, 2015 21:55
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Dirk the Average posted:That being said, it's still useful to park and consolidate excess consumables, books, and swappable items into one spot. pumpinglemma posted:To expand on this: items can't be destroyed by monster attacks any more, there's no longer a weight limit on carrying capacity, and all the fruits have been condensed into a single item slot so permafood takes up much less space. I'm kind've a hoarder and tend to hold on to consumables that I'll probably never use, so that's part of it. There's also a lot of situationally useful jewelery / armor pieces that I feel the need to stick someplace - I won't need that amulet of rMut for Dungeon / Depths / Lair / Snake / Shoals, but I want it readily available for Slime / Abyss / Zot, and so on. I don't need the stack of wands of digging that much for the main game, but they're extremely useful during the orb run. etc. To each his own, though!
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Jun 4, 2015 22:09
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item destruction being taken out is the first positive thing I've heard about Crawl since they removed Mountain Dwarves, so that's something I guess. still won't play it probably
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Jun 4, 2015 22:11
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Indecisive posted:item destruction being taken out is the first positive thing I've heard about Crawl since they removed Mountain Dwarves I'LL KILL YOU
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Jun 4, 2015 22:31
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If you're a Sproggiwood player and you happen to like the music: First: Thanks! I wrote it! It was fun! Second: Unormal has released the soundtrack on Steam and it's on sale at present (35 percent off I think) as DLC. I'm not getting a kick-back on that, but it does mean Unormal can pay me to write the music for Caves of Qud! Everybody wins!
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Jun 4, 2015 22:31
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I'm trying to think of what the soundtrack to Qud would sound like, what style, and I can't decide on anything.
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Jun 4, 2015 22:37
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rj54x posted:I'm kind've a hoarder and tend to hold on to consumables that I'll probably never use, so that's part of it. There's also a lot of situationally useful jewelery / armor pieces that I feel the need to stick someplace - I won't need that amulet of rMut for Dungeon / Depths / Lair / Snake / Shoals, but I want it readily available for Slime / Abyss / Zot, and so on. I don't need the stack of wands of digging that much for the main game, but they're extremely useful during the orb run. etc. I just don't really get what's happening in someone's games where they feel they have to make a stash.
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Jun 4, 2015 22:39
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Galaga Galaxian posted:I'm trying to think of what the soundtrack to Qud would sound like, what style, and I can't decide on anything. Synth. Lots and lots of synth. I'm talkin' John Carpenter level synth.
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Jun 4, 2015 22:43
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Selling items is good in games all about the loot. I want to drown in grey items.
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Jun 4, 2015 22:45
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:The first guy to come up with the idea that you should be able to sell items should be drawn and quartered. So many games, ruined. A few things to deflect your anger from Dave Arneson or possibly Gary Gygax. When you're literally pioneering the entire concept of RPGs by creating something new out of wargames it's pretty forgivable to settle on "money works like it does in real life." Second, given the nature of tabletop gaming he probably made the call with about 5 seconds of thought when a player asked if they could sell a spare piece of equipment. And lastly, the idea to make sure your players had the gear appropriate for the challenges they faced was just one of many quality of life features that were so obvious to them they didn't think it had to be explained. Blame all the other designers in the last 40 years who copy the mechanics of the games they've played without ever asking why a feature or system exists. But in general agreement, money based wealth systems in games are terrible and selling items is even worse. It's really a shame that RPG designers (especially the hobbyists who make rogue-likes) aren't willing to experiment with the sacred, 40-year-old rules of the genre.
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Jun 4, 2015 22:47
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Galaga Galaxian posted:I'm trying to think of what the soundtrack to Qud would sound like, what style, and I can't decide on anything. Our current ideas are middle eastern based composition with animal sounds and meditation bowls as the primary instruments. Still a work in progress. 
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Jun 4, 2015 22:52
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I like selling stuff.  Uncharted Waters II is one of my favorite old games. (Not a roguelike, but has some elements I wish someone would apply to one)
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Jun 4, 2015 22:53
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An Age of Sail exploration Roguelike would be pretty interesting. Dunno how good procedurally generated stuff would be for it though. Sid Meier's Pirates!: Roguelike Edition  Unormal posted:Our current ideas are middle eastern based composition with animal sounds and meditation bowls as the primary instruments. Still a work in progress. I can't tell if you're joking tbh, but if done well that could be cool. Dunno about animal sounds though, but its probably not what I think you mean. Galaga Galaxian fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 22:58
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Galaga Galaxian posted:An Age of Sail exploration Roguelike would be pretty interesting. Dunno how good procedurally generated stuff would be for it though. Fixed map, randomize town contents? I don't think a lot of procedural design needs to go into it.
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Jun 4, 2015 23:38
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Pladdicus posted:Fixed map, randomize town contents? I don't think a lot of procedural design needs to go into it. I'm trying to make this in unity, but I don't know how to program and it is very slow going I am paying a guy 35$ a week for an hour of time.
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Jun 4, 2015 23:39
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my dad posted:I like selling stuff. Selling stuff is not innately bad, but in roguelikes it tends to go hand-in-hand with "drowning in grey items". Which means the player is constantly shuffling their vendor trash around to optimize the "value density" of their inventory, or deciding which items to sell and which items to keep, or worst of all actually stopping playing the main game so they can detour back to town to unload all their crap. I would be perfectly fine with selling in a game where you can find, say, 1 item per 30 minutes' worth of gameplay, money was similarly rare, and all item values were quantized so that e.g. 2 items sold = 1 item bought, or 4 for 1 higher-tier item, etc. Finding new loot should be exciting, and it's not exciting when a) it happens all the time, and/or b) most items you find are not useful. Selling is a hedge against the latter, but it doesn't address the lootsplosion problem that so many RPGs have.
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Jun 4, 2015 23:57
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Finding new loot should be exciting, and it's not exciting when a) it happens all the time, and/or b) most items you find are not useful. Selling is a hedge against the latter, but it doesn't address the lootsplosion problem that so many RPGs have. 1 item per 30 minutes of gameplay is unfathomable. Is that really 30 minutes where every chest is empty, barrel barren, and the monsters drop nothing at all?
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Jun 5, 2015 00:02
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Selling stuff is not innately bad, but in roguelikes it tends to go hand-in-hand with "drowning in grey items". Which means the player is constantly shuffling their vendor trash around to optimize the "value density" of their inventory, or deciding which items to sell and which items to keep, or worst of all actually stopping playing the main game so they can detour back to town to unload all their crap. If items are rare, all useful, and you genuinely trade off between keeping both to swap or selling one for money 100% of the time, I could maybe see it being okay. It's fairly easy to, in most games, compute whether or not an item is useful, and if it's not, drop gold instead, but most games don't bother. I don't know if getting that exactly right would ever be worth the hassle in terms of what you gain - I'd rather the tradeoff just be the free inventory slot and leave the item on the ground and be done with it.
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Jun 5, 2015 00:05
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I like loot pinata's, but they need to be easy to glean good from poo poo stuff. Also, I found a +27 haubrek, Lear's, in Crawl as a KOBE. What? What do I do with this information.
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Jun 5, 2015 00:31
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Unrelated: here is my Qud fanart / monster request <3
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Jun 5, 2015 00:33
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madjackmcmad posted:That's not an opinion shared by the gaming public at large. Finding crap items does make the good ones more exciting. There's always a need for balance, and making the player have to manage inventory every 5 minutes sucks, but finding the great item among the hoard of good, ok, and bad is a big part of the draw for people who play RPGs. Sure, and I recognize that my opinions are not always shared by the average gamer. But the average gamer has horrible taste, so this doesn't bug me much.  quote:1 item per 30 minutes of gameplay is unfathomable. Is that really 30 minutes where every chest is empty, barrel barren, and the monsters drop nothing at all? Clearly a game designed around a paucity of item drops would need radically different motivations for dungeon exploration compared to a game designed around lootsplosions. In my incredibly vague imagination, items would mostly be acquired via "boss encounters" of various types (including fights but also quest completions, solving puzzles, etc.), and most monsters would just provide obstacles en route to said boss encounters. You wouldn't necessarily want to fight every monster you encounter, because the only reward for doing so is that they stop bugging you. Chests wouldn't exist (they're a silly concept anyway) and barrels would all explode. Maybe 1 per 30 minutes is a bit excessive in the other direction. I guess it depends on how good you are at the game. But the idea is that items would be a reward for accomplishing specific major things, not things that are randomly doled out by a Skinner box.
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Jun 5, 2015 01:07
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How good is sleep gas generation in Qud? I'm thinking of tinkering with my main build a bit so I'm not using paralyzing stinger, since apparently a back slot is extremely useful to have later in the game. Sleep gas seems like it would be a decent alternative, even if it means giving up corrosive gas.
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Jun 5, 2015 01:16
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Pladdicus posted:Also, I found a +27 haubrek, Lear's, in Crawl as a KOBE. It's a piece of armor that uses all of your body slots to give you (effectively) a heavily enchanted, non-ego plate mail. If you found it early, it is very nice to throw on and be invincible for a while. However, you will want to replace it later on when you find good hats/boots/etc, as well as a body armor with an elemental resistance (like fire), since the enchantment bonus just doesn't make up for losing out on all the ego slots.
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Jun 5, 2015 01:21
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