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Vib Rib posted:In case anyone doubted this I'd like to remind everyone the latest version of Long War has a randomized number of turns on the bleed out timer on critically wounded troops, and also that timer is hidden from the player. Also item repair. People mention these like they are bad or something...
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Jun 8, 2015 19:59
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Mr.Pibbleton posted:I hope XCOM 2 comes with an international voice pack from the beginning, I love how at least one of the spanish voice sets sings when they capture an alien. I never used to get the fascination with French people, but hearing the way French women in EW say "Adieuuu" so seductively has given me a very intimate appreciation of the Gallic race. e; And I don't much like the repair mechanic but I think the blind bleed out stuff is excellent in LW. Really adds tension for me! Ms Adequate fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 20:00
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Item repair is one of the things people turn off most so yeah it's at least not Good.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:01
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Coolguye posted:Item repair is one of the things people turn off most so yeah it's at least not Good. You know what would also add some realism to the ant farm layer of content? A mandatory quicktime minigame where you have to manually load every weapon charge/round of ammo into mags before you roll out on a mission. I feel like this would add a great deal of depth to the experience of the Long War, because when I was in the military we spent more time than you can easily imagine loading mags. Also we had to practice mag swapping so that we wouldn't fumble poo poo when we were under pressure, and since XCOM soldiers are never seen doing that there should be a chance to fumble reloads. Maybe it could be represented by a Panic roll with every reload; in-game the weapon refills regardless, but the unit might lose its next turn too.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:07
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Coolguye posted:I don't feel like the One True Strategy thing is true in EW at all. There are a handful of different ways to tackle the early game, all with their own perks and downfalls, and each of them have different ramifications going into the mid game. Maybe call it a tactic, not a strategy. I agree that there are several paths for EW strategic play. For instance, I go heavy MEC, plan to get genetics started in July or even August, push out three Sats a month starting in month 2 until everyone's covered, and use the base assault as a panic reducer when I'm about to lose a country because there're too many red countries to solve with Sats. I don't pretend that's the best or the only way; some people beeline lasers and push for five sats out in month 1, others go for squadsight bio-skinned snipers and mimetic skin scouts. But when it comes to the tactics, it really does come down to "Can I kill everyone on this screen right now, or do I need to pull back to a better position and try again next turn?" The tools are different because the strategic side is different, but the tactical goal is always the same. Kill, or set up, but don't give the aliens free shots on your troops.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:08
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If I had a nickel for every time I wished for death while topping up mags I wouldn't have to work anymore. And I'm just a hobbyist shooter, not a military or law enforcement professional.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:09
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Coolguye posted:Item repair is one of the things people turn off most so yeah it's at least not Good. Item repair costs are absolutely hosed if you do any sort of math on them, strongly gently caress over any class that relies on weapons you only want to build one of (Snipers and Gunners most) and serve as another massive resource sink in a mod chock full of them already. Also the way repair is determined is the same standard bullshit Long War always pulls. If you are lucky and don't get hit you snowball to easy success. You get a few bad rolls at the wrong time you get hosed over. Long War in general has a huge problem with snowball mechanics. Things like fatigue spirals, how alien research works and the incredibly grindy psi exp are really bad game design.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:10
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LonsomeSon posted:You know what would also add some realism to the ant farm layer of content? A mandatory quicktime minigame where you have to manually load every weapon charge/round of ammo into mags before you roll out on a mission. In X-Com you had to buy individual rounds yourself and make sure to equip your soldiers with them. Clearly XCOM's lack of this feature is a sign of the consolization and over-simplification of modern video gaming 
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Jun 8, 2015 20:11
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Time Units are not great. I think the way the movement/action system in XCOM is handled just fine. In X-COM I either had the Reserve TU button set for different shots, or used all the TUs on sprinting anyway. It is pretty cool that you can spend them all doing dumb things and essentially waste your turn as you duck, take a grenade off your belt, etc.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:11
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Bholder posted:People mention these like they are bad or something...
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Jun 8, 2015 20:12
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Coolguye posted:If I had a nickel for every time I wished for death while topping up mags I wouldn't have to work anymore. No joke, I shoot my .22 more than anything else because it's the easiest to load over and over. Make that a decision in XCom2, "No, boss, listen, it's just swoletoid, he doesn't even wear armor. Let's just take the 10/22, save our thumbs for next time."
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Jun 8, 2015 20:12
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A D&D 4th edition mod would slide easily into an XCOM engine game. Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard as your four classes.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:12
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winterwerefox posted:A D&D 4th edition mod would slide easily into an XCOM engine game. Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard as your four classes. Everyone just runs 4-wizard builds. Edit: Wait, 4E? Nevermind, that's the good edition.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:13
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Byers2142 posted:Everyone just runs 4-wizard builds. 
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Jun 8, 2015 20:14
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Byers2142 posted:Maybe call it a tactic, not a strategy. I agree that there are several paths for EW strategic play. For instance, I go heavy MEC, plan to get genetics started in July or even August, push out three Sats a month starting in month 2 until everyone's covered, and use the base assault as a panic reducer when I'm about to lose a country because there're too many red countries to solve with Sats. I don't pretend that's the best or the only way; some people beeline lasers and push for five sats out in month 1, others go for squadsight bio-skinned snipers and mimetic skin scouts. It's basically this. One loose sectoid? A whole pack of mutons? Same response because the penalty for revealing another pod during contact is so enormous. Outsider? Just run up everyone next to that mofo and blast home because you've already done a lap around the ufo and he's the last guy left. Long war throws a lot of tactical gently caress yous at you to make sure you can't fall back to this strategy. Roving outsiders calling enemies, random hidden bleedout, random bomb nodes, enemy lightening reflexes all make sure you'll end up activating multiple pods and having to deal with difficult situations. There are a lot of problems with long war but it's better than applying the same algorithm over and over again.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:14
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Byers2142 posted:But when it comes to the tactics, it really does come down to "Can I kill everyone on this screen right now, or do I need to pull back to a better position and try again next turn?" The tools are different because the strategic side is different, but the tactical goal is always the same. Kill, or set up, but don't give the aliens free shots on your troops. This is the basic formula for all games in the series and all games that are in xcom's vein. Any game where single turns can translate into a lot of damage and damage means something will boil down to this meta game. Even Chaos Gate boils down to this in Bolter vs Bolter combat because even if 8 rounds just flick off Brother Severus's power armor, the 9th can kill him instantly. You handle it by suckering the traitors into the firing arc of a set up heavy Bolter. What I am saying is that this feels like complaining that jumpman games all have platforms.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:15
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Zore posted:Also the way repair is determined is the same standard bullshit Long War always pulls. If you are lucky and don't get hit you snowball to easy success. You get a few bad rolls at the wrong time you get hosed over. It's more realistic that the more aliens get away with the stronger they become, but it doesn't make for good game design, because like you pointed out, the whole thing is just snowballing. If you do well, the game gets easier. If you do badly, it gets harder. It should absolutely be the other way around. Challenge should rise to meet the player and give them a breather if they're getting stomped. They could have basically inverted the "alien research" bar progress on certain events, but as it is, despite everything they've said, there absolutely is a point of no return, and that threshold is far closer than a lot of people realize. Also the fact that the most tactically advantageous moves (flanking, pincer maneuvers, etc) are basically impossible because of the pod system, which just means if you try to outmaneuver an enemy, you'll just end up with five more on you. Which is why all we really have left to fall back on is the method everyone else is mentioning where you limit engagement as much as possible in the first place.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:17
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Vib Rib posted:An random and invisible bleedout system absolutely is bad. Because it can be as few as 2 turns, you have to get over to the person as quick as possible with basically no other considerations if you want them to live. Because it's invisible, you have to treat every critical wound exactly the same way, and you have to assume 2 turns is what was rolled. So every bleedout is handled as an immediate emergency, the only difference is that sometimes randomly it'll be more or less, so your success is determined by a roll of the dice instead of actual tactical planning. It is in no way more strategic, let alone fun, than the vanilla version that lets you manage your remaining time more precisely. But you don't actually have to make the assumption everything is 2 turns at all? In fact for me a huge part of what I like about the mechanic is that it adds precisely that question - Bubba "Hex" Guile is down. Do I risk rushing over and try to revive him? Do I play it a little safer for my remaining guys, and take an extra turn about it? I might lose him that way, so is he worth taking risks for? I am indeed gambling against the roll of the dice, but that has an impact on drat nearly every other part of the game except when you can flank and get yourself 100% accuracy, why would this be different?
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Jun 8, 2015 20:18
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Zore posted:Item repair costs are absolutely hosed if you do any sort of math on them, strongly gently caress over any class that relies on weapons you only want to build one of (Snipers and Gunners most) and serve as another massive resource sink in a mod chock full of them already. You don't need to be talking about math when you have a history of getting easily verifiable facts wrong. We get it, you don't like or want to play LW long enough to actually have an informed opinion. Firstborn posted:Time Units are not great. I think the way the movement/action system in XCOM is handled just fine. In X-COM I either had the Reserve TU button set for different shots, or used all the TUs on sprinting anyway. It is pretty cool that you can spend them all doing dumb things and essentially waste your turn as you duck, take a grenade off your belt, etc. I do prefer not having TUs, but if a mod for them gets the No Mutons Allowed purists to buy the game, everyone is happy. MrBims fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 20:22
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Mister Adequate posted:I never used to get the fascination with Snake people, but hearing the way Snake women in EW say "Hisssss" so seductively has given me a very intimate appreciation of the Ophidian race.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:22
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Mister Adequate posted:But you don't actually have to make the assumption everything is 2 turns at all? In fact for me a huge part of what I like about the mechanic is that it adds precisely that question - Bubba "Hex" Guile is down. Do I risk rushing over and try to revive him? Do I play it a little safer for my remaining guys, and take an extra turn about it? I might lose him that way, so is he worth taking risks for? I am indeed gambling against the roll of the dice, but that has an impact on drat nearly every other part of the game except when you can flank and get yourself 100% accuracy, why would this be different? If they at least made the timer visible it would be more in line with the other random factors of the game. Every shot you take has a random chance, but you know what that chance is. Aim percentage is not hidden from the player. If a soldier is critically wounded, there's already tactical concerns like "can I risk holding the engagement another turn, and leave myself only two moves to get there, instead of three?" and "will I be able to get there in time, and still be able to cover my medic?". Randomizing the bleedout could vary this up, sure. But randomizing it AND making it invisible reduces the tactical input of the player because it reduces information to the player. Every other random chance is informed, and any uninformed risk is mitigated through careful procedure.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:23
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Vib Rib posted:Aim percentage is not hidden from the player. Don't give them ideas, jfc
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Jun 8, 2015 20:26
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Coolguye posted:This is the basic formula for all games in the series and all games that are in xcom's vein. Any game where single turns can translate into a lot of damage and damage means something will boil down to this meta game. Even Chaos Gate boils down to this in Bolter vs Bolter combat because even if 8 rounds just flick off Brother Severus's power armor, the 9th can kill him instantly. You handle it by suckering the traitors into the firing arc of a set up heavy Bolter. I'm not complaining, I like vanilla over LW, but LW does add in more things to prevent it from being an either-or game. In vanilla, either you kill everything on screen this turn or you fall back because you don't want to make a bad situation worse by triggering pods; you don't have to play this way, but doing anything else makes things much harder on you and makes it more likely for thin men to start sniping through high cover because you let them set up for that shot. LW makes the situation worse regardless, and you're given more specialized/varied classes to deal with. It introduces more complicated decision points, but complicated isn't necessarily better. I'd argue that the reason LW removes the "One True" from the tactical game is an over-emphasis on complicated randomization that makes the game more opaque to play and impossible to guarantee success via any particular move. The multiple random systems and the changes to the strategy game are why I've never gotten further than June in a LW game.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:27
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Vib Rib posted:Because the risk would still there if you knew about it. This isn't making it more strategic or interesting, just less informed. I can see where you're coming from, but to me the revelation of randomized bleedouts would kind of detract from the aspect of it I find interesting. You'd know at a glance whether you can make it or not, the question of whether to try would be answered when the dude goes down and the only remaining element would be if you get Overwatched. I certainly don't want the fog of war to be in every aspect of the battle but for that particular one I do find that it works.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:41
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So, really, what needs to happen, is that they need to front the actual odds of bleeding out on a given turn, and that would be fine with you?
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Jun 8, 2015 20:45
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Coolguye posted:I don't feel like the One True Strategy thing is true in EW at all. There are a handful of different ways to tackle the early game, all with their own perks and downfalls, and each of them have different ramifications going into the mid game. Yeah this ended up being super disappointing. Which is why I'm glad Xcom 2 (terrible, terrible name) seems to promise more fully featured modding support. Maps are huge, and a big part of why long war gets stale, but being able to muck around with the game's inner logic is really really cool and I really really look forwards to what people make with it. Totally going to get my hands dirty myself as well.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:52
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Cat Army 
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Random bleed outs is loving dumb and right up there in line with not being able to see your aim percentages and starting your soldiers off with 3 health. The repair system seems to be stupid and doesn't add anything to the game except another layer of frustration. I like some of the attempts to balance the items in b15 - by making the battle rifle not suck poo poo on your first shot if you haven't moved, but I was disappointed to realize this impacted the second shot of an infantry using the battle rifle. In one of my previous runs I edited the .ini to adjust the costs and fatigue timers on gene mods and they were still underwhelming re: the talk about flanking not working with so many pods: I think this works ok if you just make sure to frontload your consumables instead of trying to save them - it's important to clear out the first few contacts you make as fast as possible, using grenades and rockets, because with the map cleared out you have the ability to set up more flanks and utilize high ground. quote:The multiple random systems and the changes to the strategy game are why I've never gotten further than June in a LW game. LW claims that you can lose missions, but I haven't really found that to be the case - the best runs I've done are where everything goes perfectly and that allows me to get into september without getting assfucked - ie. I have enough troops with enough rank to get the OTS upgrades (due to good missions and not losing soldiers), the equip I need (due to not losing poo poo and being able to shoot down UFOs), and the research I need. If you don't do perfectly well and complete all the missions you usually start on a death spiral where you're not even aware that you're going to lose the game because so far you're managing and then wham it's 5 floater + 1 muton pods or double mechtoid pods and you run into a mission where you just go "what the gently caress ever" oswald ownenstein fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 20:54
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Sorry but you're wrong, come back when you have played LW the right way and know all the facts 
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Jun 8, 2015 20:55
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Vib Rib posted:An random and invisible bleedout system absolutely is bad. Because it can be as few as 2 turns, you have to get over to the person as quick as possible with basically no other considerations if you want them to live. Because it's invisible, you have to treat every critical wound exactly the same way, and you have to assume 2 turns is what was rolled. So every bleedout is handled as an immediate emergency, the only difference is that sometimes randomly it'll be more or less, so your success is determined by a roll of the dice instead of actual tactical planning. It is in no way more strategic, let alone fun, than the vanilla version that lets you manage your remaining time more precisely. Wow, it's like critical condition is something that should be treated as fast as possible or something. Plan ahead with only 2 turns in mind and thank RNG if you get more. Not like getting critically wounded instead of instantly dying is any different in randomness standpoint. Zore posted:Item repair costs are absolutely hosed if you do any sort of math on them, strongly gently caress over any class that relies on weapons you only want to build one of (Snipers and Gunners most) and serve as another massive resource sink in a mod chock full of them already. Well, there is a really easy solution for this. You could even potentially vary up your lineup, so it's a win-win.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:56
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Vib Rib posted:Also the fact that the most tactically advantageous moves (flanking, pincer maneuvers, etc) are basically impossible because of the pod system, which just means if you try to outmaneuver an enemy, you'll just end up with five more on you. Which is why all we really have left to fall back on is the method everyone else is mentioning where you limit engagement as much as possible in the first place. Use battle scanners. You start the game from mission 1 with an infinite supply of them. Information is more important than that 3rd pidly grenade or that 4th mostly useless armor plating.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:59
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Vib Rib posted:Because the risk would still there if you knew about it. This isn't making it more strategic or interesting, just less informed. The reason the bleed timer was hidden and randomized was to accommodate a long-requested buff to the Respirator Implant (now guarantees critical wound on 1st lethal damage, add 2 to wound timer, and un-hides the timer). It is a bit disingenuous to portray it as a random sperg gently caress you. Since JL doesn't read this thread, I'll share a little secret with you: Bone Marrow Gene Mod + Respirator Implant + Revive Medic gives you amazing tank assaults in May at the cost of a few burned out troopers with negative will in the late game. They can run around solving problems and drawing pods, literally stand in the open to tank hits, and still make it back to base no matter what. So this change strengthened the utility of an underused item, aggressive YOLO tactics (another thing that people were asking for), at the cost of making you the player not wait until the last minute before sending a medic to save a dying soldier.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:00
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When they introduced repairs they also lowered the cost of building weapons, that's good because you get more flexibility as soon as you research a new weapon tech. The idea that you might want more than you intend to equip is fine but maybe repairs should just take X days and not cost resources at all.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:00
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MrBims posted:You don't need to be talking about math when you have a history of getting easily verifiable facts wrong. We get it, you don't like or want to play LW long enough to actually have an informed opinion. I feel like I've played Long War enough to have an informed opinion, and he's 100% right about the repair system being more effectively-meaningless bullshit which serves only to enhance the spiral the player is on, whether that's a failure or success spiral. Regardless of whether there are people who will defend the 'feature,' having it just isn't good game design, in exactly the same way that a lot of the minutia from the 94 game were recognized to be less than successful when EU was being made. It's okay, the LW devs can be amazing modders with great technical skill and still be able to get some poo poo wrong, even poo poo like core game progression concepts. They can do that and still release over a dozen major revisions of a massive sweeping overhaul mod which is fun as gently caress in a lot of respects. We can recognize that and, at the same time understand that there are still huge glaring flaws which take away quite a bit of the potential enjoyment from the experience. We can even discuss those problems in public even though it somehow seems like heresy! What amazing times we live in.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:03
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Bholder posted:Wow, it's like critical condition is something that should be treated as fast as possible or something. Why do people insist on using real life arguments for video game balance Naw you're right bro they should also add tripping where your soldiers can randomly fall over and lose the rest of their actions in no cover. Rookies should also just let the grenade blow up in their hands sometimes because they're rookies.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:05
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It's hard to disagree that from a game design perspective that the snowball mechanic, whether up or down, it's a pretty poor way of doing things. But the fact is that it's a core part of how Xcom works, and LW basically amplifies and escalates every mechanic in xcom, snowball included. That said I agree that repair is dumb.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:06
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what if your females could get pregnant
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Jun 8, 2015 21:07
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MrBims posted:You don't need to be talking about math when you have a history of getting easily verifiable facts wrong. We get it, you don't like or want to play LW long enough to actually have an informed opinion. I've played Long War a lot actually. I even like it a lot! That doesn't mean I don't think a lot of it is also bullshit, and that recent revisions have been moving in a poor direction in my opinion. Not really sure what your point is besides just making an attack on me? Do you think the repair system is well implemented and doesn't reinforce success/failure spirals? That it doesn't penalize Snipers/Gunners with much bigger strategic costs than any other class for no real reason? Zore fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 21:08
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Notorious QIG posted:what if your females could get pregnant 9 months of fatigue and then you get a free rookie?
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Jun 8, 2015 21:09
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oswald ownenstein posted:9 months of fatigue and then you get a free rookie? Hey now, let's be fair to newborns.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:10
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oswald ownenstein posted:Why do people insist on using real life arguments for video game balance And why do people immediately jump to hyperboles after this? It makes things more interesting instead of waiting out the last minute to get the most value out of your time.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:10
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