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BrianWilly
Apr 24, 2007

There is no homosexual terrorist Johnny Silverhand

bobkatt013 posted:

Matt did not kill a hooker

Chokes McGee posted:

that we know of :tinfoil:
[insert no-effort joke about Nobu here]

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Blazing Ownager
Jun 2, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

BiggerBoat posted:

Punisher works perfectly with what Netflix has done so far with DD and I can't wait. Now who's going to play Bullseye?

They just try and try and can't get the character right in film but this should be the perfect lead in, even if he's primarily a supporting character. I've been rambling about this since the first Daredevil trailer came out.

zoux posted:



Which comic is that and apparently he has a giant neck tattoo

I hope they look at Welcome Back Frank and Garth Ennis Punisher for inspiration exclusively though. I still remember the first time I read the issue of Punisher MAX after Ennis left, and I didn't realize at the time. "Why is this such a huge piece of poo poo?" It never got much better.

I'd honestly say he's the definitive take on the character but that would be an understatement.

Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Jun 10, 2015

zoux
Apr 28, 2006

BrianWilly posted:

Probably should've gone for someone other than Frank Castle, then. :v:

Seriously though, Marvel properties are hot as hell and it should be no surprise that any actor would want in.

Unless you're Jason Statham I guess.

Yeah Bryce Dallas Howard was lobbying hard for Captain Marvel in an interview I read and said glowing things about the MCU franchises. Acting is an art, but it's also a job and being a Marvel superhero right now is a really loving lucrative and steady job.

Also that Jason Statham thing could be all LR covering a bad rumor.

HIJK
Nov 25, 2012
in the room where you sleep

BiggerBoat posted:

It wont. It's gonna turn out like Miller's initial run that made DD famous, give us Elektra and Punisher and set the table for "Born Again" like we've always wanted. It's going to be great. Punisher works perfectly with what Netflix has done so far with DD and I can't wait. Now who's going to play Bullseye?

I will hold faith then. But I won't blind myself.

Blazing Ownager
Jun 2, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

zoux posted:

Also that Jason Statham thing could be all LR covering a bad rumor.

I can see why; Marvel's contracts have been described as "Draconian" due to the need to retain actors for so many interconnected movies and properties. I don't feel much sympathy since Marvel does seem to get even it's bit part actors a lot of work and the very nature of the MCU requires contracts like that.

But I wouldn't say someone like Staham, who seems to enjoy jumping from movie to movie and doing the occasional batshit side project like Crank, wouldn't want to get tied down into the MCU if it involved anything more than a one shot villain. Also here's the quote:

Jason Statham posted:

A lot of the modern sort of action movies I see, you know, Marvel comic sort of things, I just think, any guy can do it. I have no ambition. I mean, I could take my grandma and put her in a cape, and then put her in a greenscreen, and then have stunt doubles come in and do all the action. Anybody can do it. I mean, they’re relying on stunt doubles, and greenscreen, and $200 million budget, it’s all CGI-created. So to me, that is not authentic.

See, I can't blame him. He would hate being an Avenger, because there's a lot of that. It's not his kind of movie, and I kind of respect where he's coming from... ironically, Daredevil was the exception to the rule, and it's likely he hasn't seen it.

If anything, for the exact reasons Statham described, I think I enjoyed every single action sequence in Daredevil more than those in Age of Ultron, even though those were fun. Really whoever pitched it to him needed to open with the clip of the hallway fight and say "This is what we're doing."

But Bullseye, none the less, is too important a character and would tie him down for way, way too long.

Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Jun 10, 2015

Medullah
Aug 14, 2003

FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS
I'm in the minority in that i actually liked Ray Stevenson as the Punisher and thought War Zone was closer to what i was looking for in a Punisher movie than the Thomas Jane one (though I blame that on script and directing, Dirty Laundry showed me Jane could pull it off)

I hope they don't take TOO much inspiration from Welcome Back, since the Thomas Jane one was based loosely on it too.

Though, how hilarious would it be for them to cast Dolph Lundgren as the Russian)

Blazing Ownager
Jun 2, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

Medullah posted:

I'm in the minority in that i actually liked Ray Stevenson as the Punisher and thought War Zone was closer to what i was looking for in a Punisher movie than the Thomas Jane one (though I blame that on script and directing, Dirty Laundry showed me Jane could pull it off)

They kind of nailed the Punisher there but the world felt too cartoony around him to make it really stick. That's why I can't say it's a great take on the character despite being the best take thus far.

I will totally say that the best take on the character outside of Ennis was from the video game on Xbox of all things. The insanely violent interrogations that nobody let people walk from combined with the flashbacks in gameplay... yeah, that game was way the hell better than it had a right to be. It had me from the moment the second mission opened up by having you emerge from a casket at a funeral to machine gun everyone in attendance.

ED: The only good thing to come of the Thomas Jane Punisher is their take on the Punisher logo. You still see that one floating around in stores today. It's a way better design for film/TV than the comic skull, and the Max series skull started taking on a similar look. That was literally it. The sad part is the movie would have been honestly better if it wasn't named The Punisher.

Medullah posted:

Though, how hilarious would it be for them to cast Dolph Lundgren as the Russian)

I don't care what role, if they even got Dolph Lundgren for any part for an episode or two of Daredevil that would be amazing.

And yeah. Honestly if they introduced the character exactly as they introduce him in Punisher MAX 1, I'd be happy: Shooting a 97 year old mobster in the head at his birthday party, followed by massacring the party goers that went after him.

Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Jun 10, 2015

zoux
Apr 28, 2006

I hope they would do keep him in DD's orbit and not really give him a seperate storyline and save the best stuff for a potential spinoff. The reaction to this has been some serious excitement, hopefully it turns into a series for Punisher. And if that happens, the gates are open, there's no reason more streetlevel characters could be intro'ed in existing Netflix series and spun off and oh my god I just got too hype

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK

BrianWilly posted:

Probably should've gone for someone other than Frank Castle, then. :v:

Seriously though, Marvel properties are hot as hell and it should be no surprise that any actor would want in.

Unless you're Jason Statham I guess.

It's understandable. Old school Wizard magazine casting slots him as Chuck Xavier for casting. And that guy wouldn't kick a dude in the teeth even if his legs worked. There's just not that many good Marvel roles for a brawling Englishman. I mean, it's not like they're going to do something with Union Jack or anything.


Statham for Orson Randall.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

Don't you tell me my business again.
I can never take Thomas Jane seriously as the Punisher or as any other action hero after seeing him in Boogie Nights and Deep Blue Sea. He's always been a hard sell for me. I don't understand what's so hard about making a good Punisher movie though. poo poo. Stallone did it 35 years ago with First Blood and built a franchise out of it.

program666
Aug 22, 2013

A giant carnivorous dinosaur
I don't know old punisher well enough but I actually find it really loving hard for people to be able to adapt Gart Ennis comical run for the punisher.

program666 fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Jun 11, 2015

Humbug Scoolbus
Apr 25, 2008

The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.
Clapping Larry
They're doing Preacher so anything is possible.

Hollismason
Jun 30, 2007

Witchfinder General

That's an amazing bit of casting there, excellent , hopefully we could see a Punisher mini series.

We still need Bullseye right? He hasn't been cast correct?

Also, strangely Daredevil seems to be one of the few heros that Garth Ennis doesn't completely poo poo on.

zoux
Apr 28, 2006

Hollismason posted:

That's an amazing bit of casting there, excellent , hopefully we could see a Punisher mini series.

We still need Bullseye right? He hasn't been cast correct?

Also, strangely Daredevil seems to be one of the few heros that Garth Ennis doesn't completely poo poo on.

You know I don't think we've had anything official about Bullseye actually being in this season.

It seemed like a lock before they cast the loving Punisher, but now?

thrakkorzog
Nov 16, 2007

zoux posted:

I hope they would do keep him in DD's orbit and not really give him a seperate storyline and save the best stuff for a potential spinoff. The reaction to this has been some serious excitement, hopefully it turns into a series for Punisher. And if that happens, the gates are open, there's no reason more streetlevel characters could be intro'ed in existing Netflix series and spun off and oh my god I just got too hype

I'm kind of ambivalent about The Punisher getting his own series. He's a pretty good villain/anti-hero to have around. I just don't think he could carry his own series these days. Well maybe he could, I just wouldn't like it.

About the only way to keep him as a sympathetic hero is to have villains that are a lot worse than him. So an ongoing Punisher series requires having a bunch of villains that are so horrible that is OK for Frank to kill them all. So basically Criminal Minds, but with The Punisher.

Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

hey look,
a post
A good Punisher show would be like the Mission Impossible tv series or Burn Notice, except all his plans just lead to killing and explosions in clever ways.

Rarity
Oct 21, 2010

~*4 LIFE*~

zoux posted:

You know I don't think we've had anything official about Bullseye actually being in this season.

It seemed like a lock before they cast the loving Punisher, but now?

Yeah if we're getting the Punisher then I don't want Bullseye as well. There's enough characters already that having both Bullseye and the Punisher would prevent either one from getting the time they deserved. Save him for season 3.

Blazing Ownager
Jun 2, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

mr.capps posted:

A good Punisher show would be like the Mission Impossible tv series or Burn Notice, except all his plans just lead to killing and explosions in clever ways.

Honestly it'd almost need a Sin City-esque voice over. Also the other trade mark of the good Punisher stuff is he gets the utter poo poo kicked out of him, which Daredevil has down very very well.

As much as I like the character, I think having him pop up across all these street level hero shows might actually be a better fit, in particular Daredevil.

program666 posted:

I don't know old punisher well enough but I actually find it really loving hard for people to be able to adapt Gart Ennis comical run for the punisher.

Ennis's run on Punisher MAX should be the bible for the character. Anything else is questionable.

thrakkorzog posted:

About the only way to keep him as a sympathetic hero is to have villains that are a lot worse than him.

The thing is, he's not really a sympathetic hero. Not exactly. He is to criminals what Jason Vorhees is to pot smoking naked teenagers.

It's not just that he shoots and kills the criminals, it's just how relentlessness he is. He smashed a woman into bullet proof glass so much it came off the hinges and she finally went down a 80 story drop, in the same issue (if I recall) he lit a guy on fire tied to a chair. Granted they were really bad people, but yeah, holy poo poo.

Whenever they try to sanitize him or make him less violent they wreck the character, because he's not supposed to be... as you say, sympathetic. He is a full on psychopath, but his chosen victims happen to be bad people.

ED: I hope they bring in his old SAS tough-bastard buddy from the Max comics into the MCU at some point and find a way to keep him old.

Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 09:26 on Jun 11, 2015

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004

Remember when Fox announced they were going to do a Punisher TV series and it sounded like an even dumber version of Dexter? We can get ultra fascist, overtly grandpa racist punisher and I'll still embrace the character more than I would have that other attempted abortion.

Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.
Grimey Drawer

ruddiger posted:

...dumber version of Dexter...

does not compute.

Blazing Ownager
Jun 2, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

ruddiger posted:

Remember when Fox announced they were going to do a Punisher TV series and it sounded like an even dumber version of Dexter? We can get ultra fascist, overtly grandpa racist punisher and I'll still embrace the character more than I would have that other attempted abortion.

I should note something else interesting about the good part of the Max run, and the only way they could make it into a TV show: The books really weren't about the Punisher, as a character, very often. He is a force in the background, while the main story is almost always about the criminals / the crime they are committing. They are always the central part of the story; in fact, I'd say just as often, his actions are written from their POV rather than his.

It definitely helps keep it a more interesting concept without hitting the "Hulk problem."

ParliamentOfDogs
Jan 29, 2009

My genre's thriller... What's yours?
There's an issue near the end of Ennis' run where Frank is killing a couple of people and as he holds them at gunpoint the narration lists all the insane poo poo he had done to folks in previous issues. Then he just shoots them in the head and walks out the door. It was such a holy gently caress moment because in the early issues he is clearly this juggernaut of rage but by the end even that had burned itself out. And he still doesn't stop. Like, the son of a bitch isn't even mad anymore, that's how completely gone he is. Movies never really have the time to get to this place with the character, so he turns into an especially violent action hero or they don't go too far beyond what happens after he gets revenge on the immediate people who killed his family. So yeah, I'd love to see them make at least one season.

Hakkesshu
Nov 4, 2009


I can't see them ever doing a standalone Punisher thing again. Something like Ennis' run is just way too bleak and depressing that any large audience would swallow it in the same way as they would Daredevil, there's no good way to make that character sympathetic so it's best to have him as an actual villain. The alternative is to make an over the top action movie, which they did, or hamfistedly try to make him sympathetic, which they did, and neither worked out. That character is done getting his own films/shows.

Hakkesshu fucked around with this message at 10:55 on Jun 11, 2015

program666
Aug 22, 2013

A giant carnivorous dinosaur

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

They're doing Preacher so anything is possible.

I forgot for a moment there but The 2004 Punisher movie was actually a adaptation of Ennis initial comedic run. I fully expect Preacher to be as much of a soulless hunk of garbage until I see proof to the contrary. I mean, I don't think they will have Arseface as a character as much as I didn't expect then to have that impossible-to-kill russian guy having huge boobies or for the Punisher to almost kill him by pushing a really fat guy over his face.

program666 fucked around with this message at 12:41 on Jun 11, 2015

Humbug Scoolbus
Apr 25, 2008

The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.
Clapping Larry

program666 posted:

I forgot for a moment there but The 2004 Punisher movie was actually a adaptation of Ennis initial comedic run. I fully expect Preacher to be as much of a soulless hunk of garbage until I see proof to the contrary. I mean, I don't think they will have Arseface as a character as much as I didn't expect then to have that impossible-to-kill russian guy having huge boobies or for the Punisher to almost kill him by pushing a really fat guy over his face.

http://comicbook.com/2015/05/15/seth-rogen-posts-first-look-at-amcs-preacher-arseface/

program666
Aug 22, 2013

A giant carnivorous dinosaur
Oh, cool that's something. Having AMC doing it is also a good thing but still Ennis' humor is too dark for TV and normal people to watch, I'm still pessimistic about it.
Edit: Can you imagine they putting that scene where arseface saves the day and everyone is cheering on him but then he removes his darkened motorcycle helmet and everyone starts to thrown up, all the while he is "talking" in that indistinct way with subtitles about being a hero and stuff. Hell every time someone looks at his face they thrown up. Also all the scenes where he says a lot of stuff to his father that just ignores him. This humor is loving impossible to show up on TV.

program666 fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Jun 11, 2015

bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

You’re telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?

Rarity posted:

Yeah if we're getting the Punisher then I don't want Bullseye as well. There's enough characters already that having both Bullseye and the Punisher would prevent either one from getting the time they deserved. Save him for season 3.

If we are getting Elektra then we are getting Bullseye. For all we know he could be in only an episode or two, and like the comic ties in with the Bullseye storyline. Bullseye escapes jail and Punisher escapes too and tries to kill him.

Humbug Scoolbus
Apr 25, 2008

The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.
Clapping Larry

program666 posted:

Oh, cool that's something. Having AMC doing it is also a good thing but still Ennis' humor is too dark for TV and normal people to watch, I'm still pessimistic about it.
Edit: Can you imagine they putting that scene where arseface saves the day and everyone is cheering on him but then he removes his darkened motorcycle helmet and everyone starts to thrown up, all the while he is "talking" in that indistinct way with subtitles about being a hero and stuff. Hell every time someone looks at his face they thrown up. Also all the scenes where he says a lot of stuff to his father that just ignores him. This humor is loving impossible to show up on TV.

Seth Rogen is the producer. The odds of vomit are high.

thrakkorzog
Nov 16, 2007

Blazing Ownager posted:

I should note something else interesting about the good part of the Max run, and the only way they could make it into a TV show: The books really weren't about the Punisher, as a character, very often. He is a force in the background, while the main story is almost always about the criminals / the crime they are committing. They are always the central part of the story; in fact, I'd say just as often, his actions are written from their POV rather than his.

It definitely helps keep it a more interesting concept without hitting the "Hulk problem."

That's why I qualified my statements by comparing it to Criminal Minds.

Criminal Minds spends about half of every episode showing how horrible whatever killer of the week is, then the feds catch them and toss them in jail. I doubt the target audience for a show like Criminal Minds would object to having a show that's like Criminal Minds, but at the end Frank Castle kills the horrible bad guys in creative ways.

Like I said, it could work as a show, it's just not one I would care to watch. My mom would probably love it though.

(I'm not a fan of Criminal Minds, but my mom likes to watch it. So that means when I go to visit I end up watching Criminal Minds. She finds shows like South Park and It's Always Sunny distasteful, then I point out that I just watched an episode of Criminal Minds where Jaime Kennedy chopped up a hooker to serve as BBQ at a church social.)

Junkfist
Oct 7, 2004

FRIEND?
I was rooting for Kingpin but I'll probably root for Punisher more I hope he wins and Daredevil cries to a priest about it.

Also yes, nothing will be worse than the final season of Dexter never forget.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Blazing Ownager posted:

Ennis's run on Punisher MAX should be the bible for the character. Anything else is questionable.

Counterpoint: anything with Barracuda in can gently caress directly off.

Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.
Grimey Drawer

Junkfist posted:

I was rooting for Kingpin but I'll probably root for Punisher more I hope he wins and Daredevil cries to a priest about it.

Also yes, nothing will be worse than the final season of Dexter never forget.

I'm so mad that the end wasn't dexter wading back to shore from his boat wreck, with all of his cop friends watching and black plastic bags and body parts washing in with him. Like the hurricane brought back all his work from the ocean. But I'm more mad that my friend made me watch that lovely show.

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

thrakkorzog posted:

That's why I qualified my statements by comparing it to Criminal Minds.

Criminal Minds spends about half of every episode showing how horrible whatever killer of the week is, then the feds catch them and toss them in jail. I doubt the target audience for a show like Criminal Minds would object to having a show that's like Criminal Minds, but at the end Frank Castle kills the horrible bad guys in creative ways.

Like I said, it could work as a show, it's just not one I would care to watch. My mom would probably love it though.

(I'm not a fan of Criminal Minds, but my mom likes to watch it. So that means when I go to visit I end up watching Criminal Minds. She finds shows like South Park and It's Always Sunny distasteful, then I point out that I just watched an episode of Criminal Minds where Jaime Kennedy chopped up a hooker to serve as BBQ at a church social.)

There's a distinct family element present in Criminal Minds that you can't really capture with a solo protagonist. What you want is basically Dexter, except you have to avoid the traps that Dexter fell into.

Periodiko
Jan 30, 2005
Uh.
I don't understand the appeal of the Punisher as a protagonist. He just seems like Batman, or any other rough street-level vigilante super hero, but without the restraint or psychology that distinguishes them and occasionally makes them interesting. I don't read comics so maybe there's something there I don't understand. The whole thing seems very 90's comic anti-hero, and the whole "military vet washes the city streets clean in blood" seems like a tired sort of right-wing fantasy. Like an unironic Rorschach.

Like, the thing that made Dexter interesting was not the fact that he murdered, it was the fact that he tried to live a double life and was intermittently conflicted about the murder. It was that murder was his shameful hobby, like anime, but slightly worse. The Punisher, as far as I can tell, just murders for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

He does seem like a perfect antagonist for Netflix Daredevil.

Kheldarn
Feb 17, 2011



Punisher is a villain who thinks he's a hero. He claims he's doing what the law/justice won't, but there's a reason they don't do those things. Frank likes to kill, and uses the murder of his family (whom he took on that picnic to tell them that he couldn't take being a husband and father, and was going to leave them) as an excuse.

Blazing Ownager
Jun 2, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

Periodiko posted:

I don't understand the appeal of the Punisher as a protagonist. He just seems like Batman, or any other rough street-level vigilante super hero, but without the restraint or psychology that distinguishes them and occasionally makes them interesting. I don't read comics so maybe there's something there I don't understand. The whole thing seems very 90's comic anti-hero, and the whole "military vet washes the city streets clean in blood" seems like a tired sort of right-wing fantasy. Like an unironic Rorschach.

He is Jason Vorhees if Jason Vorhees had military training, ludicrous weapons, and chose criminals over stupid teenagers.

I think that's the core of it. The motivations for him doing what he does are the backdrop. After that, it's about watching him set to work obliterating everything in his path, usually getting the utter poo poo beat out of him along the way. But there's no reasoning with him, no bargaining with him. You cross his line, and you pissed off the Terminator.

Again, that's why 99% of the good Punisher comics actually feature on the people around him - villains or supporting cast. It's the same reason as slasher villain isn't in 90% of the movie. You can do some cool stuff with the character, but really, watching his enemies increasing desperation and plans from their POV is what kind of makes it work.

There's obviously a little more to it - mostly heavy noir style and all. Dexter is an awful comparison, Rorschach is not, but neither are quite as overkill as the Punisher. Really that kind of sums it up: The character is walking overkill.

ED: And I do mean overkill, I think he might have the longest list of insane "WHAT THE gently caress" kills in all of comics, some awesome and others hilarious. Plus the fact Marvel heroes keep trying to work with him under no killing rules, and that never ends up well; should be why I think he'll work great on Daredevil.

Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Jun 26, 2015

Red
Apr 15, 2003

Yeah, great at getting us into Wawa.
I dunno.

The Punisher does have moments of doubt, and flaws. He's spared villains in the past when they've done the right thing, and has his own moral code. In his own books, he's struggled with trust issues and his sidekick(s).

When guest-starring in someone else's book, it's usually about the villains running from him, or the heroes trying to restrain him.

Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.
Grimey Drawer
I like Punisher because, unlike other "grim" superheroes like batman, he's not pretending he's somehow above it. A lot of pg/pg-13 super heroes live in a magical world where violence is an option seperate from killing. Everyone wants to be able to hurt people really badly and then have th moral high ground because they aren't a murderer. To me this is a really hosed-up distortion of reality. I understand the apeal, and it's not like i don't like Batman, but Punisher's politics, while repugnant, aren't nearly as hypocritical. Punisher is what a violent vigilante who's taking out bad guys really looks like. Comics like spiderman and batman claim that the police are powerless to stop these criminals, and all it takes is some acrobatics and ninja skills to put them in their place. Punisher takes the premise that vigilantism is somehow good and runs with it to it's logical conclusion.

The problem with The Punisher is that he either makes people uncomfortable or much too excited. People who like Spiderman like it because it's a fantasy world where you can beat the loving poo poo out of people and still be the good guy. People who love hosed up violence and revenge gravitate towards Punisher, which perpetuates the idea that Punisher is awesome because he tortures and kills people. Like when I see someone wearing a Punisher shirt, I immediately think "douche bag". The Punisher isn't someone you're supposed to want to be, but he represents the part of all of us who wish we could punish bad people. The Punisher is the embodiment of cyclical violence.

Where Daredevil's ninja skills allow him to magically choose whether frontflip kicking someone in the neck kills them, Punisher only has killing and torturing skills. Skills that exist in the real world. For him, the line of whether or not to kill people was answered way back in Vietnam.

Blazing Ownager
Jun 2, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

Red posted:

I dunno.

The Punisher does have moments of doubt, and flaws. He's spared villains in the past when they've done the right thing, and has his own moral code. In his own books, he's struggled with trust issues and his sidekick(s).

When guest-starring in someone else's book, it's usually about the villains running from him, or the heroes trying to restrain him.

I'm not sure outside of the big stories/MAX Run, but outside of petty criminals (he doesn't go around chaingunning potheads), the only time he ever spared criminals I can recall he immediately regretted, and often went back on that decision. He also shot his only long time ally in the head for compromising his ethics, though he did give him a chance to run first.

He does have his own moral code but it's frighteningly black & white and often bat poo poo extreme.

Snak posted:

The problem with The Punisher is that he either makes people uncomfortable or much too excited. People who like Spiderman like it because it's a fantasy world where you can beat the loving poo poo out of people and still be the good guy. People who love hosed up violence and revenge gravitate towards Punisher, which perpetuates the idea that Punisher is awesome because he tortures and kills people. Like when I see someone wearing a Punisher shirt, I immediately think "douche bag". The Punisher isn't someone you're supposed to want to be, but he represents the part of all of us who wish we could punish bad people. The Punisher is the embodiment of cyclical violence.

Again, I look at it the same way as people who might like cheese slasher movies. It's not torture porn, it's ludicrous (and stylized) overkill but grounded enough to not be 90s overkill. I think it's impossible to find the way, way over the top violence of the Punisher really amusing without the "I want to torture and kill people!" aspect, that's really kind of odd you'd think they had to go together.

I mean, you have an Immortan Joe avatar. Should I assume you wish you were a mad slaver cult leader?

Bottom line, there's a scene from the Punisher game that isn't out of line with his character at all: He ices a mobster, then goes to his funeral, gets in his coffin, and bursts out with an M60 and takes out the whole thing. It's ludicrous, over the top as all hell, and I don't think you have to "want to torture people" to find that awesome. To be fair part of why MAX works is they often put him against people that are really, really awful, not just normal comic book awful, but even the character isn't under a delusion he's the "good guy."

Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Jun 26, 2015

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Aphrodite
Jun 27, 2006

A lot of the things people are saying are not objective facts. Punisher has varied a lot.

Like he certainly has thought he's above it all in past runs. There have been attempts to portray him as a good guy, etc.

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