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Never thought I'd see a day when roguelike chat would be discussing gamepads :p
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Jun 10, 2015 12:58
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DatonKallandor posted:Yeah that's the lovely part about the Xbox Controller that Microsoft managed to spin into great PR because games media takes anything they say in press releases at face value if it's vaguely about technology.  XInput is not without its troubles, but in no way does it "provide an easy way for developers to lock out every non-microsoft controller". An XInput game will work with every XInput-compatible controller, which is most controllers made in the last ~five years -- microsoft-branded or not.The biggest issues you're likely to run into are either (a) you have an old controller, but want to play new games that only support XInput, or (b) you have a new, lovely controller that only supports XInput, but want to play old games that only support DirectInput. Both problems can be solved by either getting a new controller that supports both, or installing a compatibility shim that makes an XInput controller look like a DirectInput one to older games (or vice versa). (This is at least the case on Windows. On OSX it's apparently a clusterfuck, but I'm not sure you can blame that on Microsoft.)
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Jun 10, 2015 14:06
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ToxicFrog posted:
Best case scenario is your game displays meaningless xbox buttons when you're using your non-xbox controller. Worst case is your game displays meaningless xbox buttons when you're using your non-xbox controller and the buttons and sticks are all hosed up. Once in a blue moon you might get a game that can tell the difference between an xbox controller and a non-xbox controller. Having to use third party software to trick games into thinking you've got an xbox controller (and all the trouble that brings with it in regards to displayed buttons, etc) is hardly a good solution or situation.
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Jun 10, 2015 14:29
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DatonKallandor posted:Best case scenario is your game displays meaningless xbox buttons when you're using your non-xbox controller. Worst case is your game displays meaningless xbox buttons when you're using your non-xbox controller and the buttons and sticks are all hosed up. Once in a blue moon you might get a game that can tell the difference between an xbox controller and a non-xbox controller. Having to use third party software to trick games into thinking you've got an xbox controller (and all the trouble that brings with it in regards to displayed buttons, etc) is hardly a good solution or situation. Again, it's not "an xbox controller", it's "any controller made in the last five years and at least some made in the last 15". If you insist on using decades-old hardware you've got to expect some new stuff won't work right with it without tinkering. I don't really blame developers of new games for not supporting DirectInput in much the same way I don't blame them for not supporting 3dFX and the Gravis Ultrasound.
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Jun 10, 2015 14:51
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ToxicFrog posted:3dFX and the Gravis Ultrasound. Oh man, now I'm all nostalgic 
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Jun 10, 2015 15:07
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ToxicFrog posted:Again, it's not "an xbox controller", it's "any controller made in the last five years and at least some made in the last 15". If you insist on using decades-old hardware you've got to expect some new stuff won't work right with it without tinkering. Of course I can expect using that hardware, when input devices haven't changed and the only thing that has is that Microsoft wants to push their own product and they happen to have access to the OS driver layer. Joysticks haven't fundamentally changed and neither have gamepads - they weren't replaced with inherently superior technology. Just like I can still use my decade-old CDs and Harddrives.
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Jun 10, 2015 15:35
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DatonKallandor posted:Of course I can expect using that hardware, when input devices haven't changed and the only thing that has is that Microsoft wants to push their own product and they happen to have access to the OS driver layer. Joysticks haven't fundamentally changed and neither have gamepads - they weren't replaced with inherently superior technology. Just like I can still use my decade-old CDs and Harddrives. The tech hasn't fundamentally changed, but god drat is it nice to just be able to boot up a game and have it instantly work with my xbox gamepad. I recall spending way too much time as a teenager trying to configure various devices. Getting my Logitech gamepad to work how I wanted it to with the PC version of GTA San Andreas was a special ring of hell.
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Jun 10, 2015 15:45
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Plenty of games just worked 15 years ago on a microsoft sidewinder or whatever as well, that's not really new. I'm guessing it was the lack of usb console controllers and a fall in joystick popularity that caused developers not to bother, nothing to do with what API it used.
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Jun 10, 2015 15:49
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I can use the same controller for like 80 games I own. What sorry controller support that I have the ease off console having at my fingertips
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Jun 10, 2015 20:38
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DatonKallandor posted:Having to use third party software to trick games into thinking you've got an xbox controller (and all the trouble that brings with it in regards to displayed buttons, etc) is hardly a good solution or situation. if it takes you more than 10 seconds to adjust to "oh A prompts are actually X" your brain might be broken
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Jun 10, 2015 21:57
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Awesome! posted:if it takes you more than 10 seconds to adjust to "oh A prompts are actually X" your brain might be broken Also, before the ubiquity of Xbox controller support, most games just showed the keyboard prompts even when using a gamepad, or would just show "button 1" or something like that, which is just as, and potentially more, useless than showing Xbox controller prompts when you're not using an Xbox controller. Monopoly or not, I think the near-universal Xbox controller support on PC is absolutely a good thing.
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Jun 10, 2015 22:09
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just buy an xbox controller
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Jun 10, 2015 22:22
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I'd be fascinated to know what the proposed solution to this "Microsoft conspiracy" is. Do you seriously expect indie companies to buy like 50 controllers just so they can detect whatever novelty controller configuration you bought off taobao? Wait, I'm getting a premonition... The answer is going to be "they don't need to support 50, they just have to support mine"
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Jun 10, 2015 22:31
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They just have to add user-configurable controls instead of trying to make it "just work".
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Jun 10, 2015 22:36
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Dongsturm posted:I'd be fascinated to know what the proposed solution to this "Microsoft conspiracy" is. Do you seriously expect indie companies to buy like 50 controllers just so they can detect whatever novelty controller configuration you bought off taobao? To be more accurate he wants them to support older controllers, which requires supporting a long-deprecated method of controller input, which many indie and even full on game toolkits these days simply don't bother to include by default.
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Jun 10, 2015 22:56
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:They just have to add user-configurable controls instead of trying to make it "just work". That's a completely reasonable suggestion and thus had no place in this discussion about quote:your game displays meaningless xbox buttons when you're using your non-xbox controller and the buttons and sticks are all hosed up He's got some weird clone device that doesn't follow the HID standard, and instead of blaming the manufacturer, it is Microsoft's fault for not having a team of programmers assigned to making someone else's broken devices work? Or the game developer's fault? Regardless, i would really like to see more roguelikes support controllers, it really is a pleasant way to play, especially when games can take 20-30 hours. I tried to play crawl by mapping buttons to keys, but there are some menus which use different keys to all the rest. The controller worked for about 80% of the game, i could post the mappings if anyone was interested. Xbox buttons, of course.
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Jun 10, 2015 22:56
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Dongsturm posted:I tried to play crawl by mapping buttons to keys, but there are some menus which use different keys to all the rest. The controller worked for about 80% of the game, i could post the mappings if anyone was interested. Xbox buttons, of course. Side gripe, I hate roguelikes trend of doing a separate button for every action. More ability to use things directly from menus, more universal buttons in addition to specific buttons that essentially act as filters for a subset of usables plz. ... then again that ties back into my hatred of inventory and consumables doesn't it. I think I should just stick to playing pokemon mystery dungeon forever or something.
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Jun 10, 2015 23:06
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How the hell would you move in crawl on a gamepad? I could see a dpad working in a game with 4 way movement but gently caress dying because I missed a diagonal on that mushy xbox dpad.
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Jun 10, 2015 23:15
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Dongsturm posted:I'd be fascinated to know what the proposed solution to this "Microsoft conspiracy" is. Do you seriously expect indie companies to buy like 50 controllers just so they can detect whatever novelty controller configuration you bought off taobao? Fully configurable buttons, configurable icon sets. Doesn't even need fully configurable icon sets. 3 would be a good baseline - Keyboard buttons/Xbox Buttons/Generic Buttons (and Playstation buttons if you wanna be fancy). Fairly easy to subdivide those depending on how customizable you wanna go. Lots of Gamepads share certain features, like Dpads or Analog sticks (and 4 Buttons in a cross layout). DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Jun 10, 2015 |
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Jun 10, 2015 23:25
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:How the hell would you move in crawl on a gamepad? I could see a dpad working in a game with 4 way movement but gently caress dying because I missed a diagonal on that mushy xbox dpad. Yeah, that happened a lot, until i made one stick do up/down/left/right and the other do diagonals. It feels weird but it works.
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Jun 10, 2015 23:26
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Dongsturm posted:Yeah, that happened a lot, until i made one stick do up/down/left/right and the other do diagonals. It feels weird but it works. Ahh that's a pretty good idea, I like it. You'll pry my vikeys from my cold dead hands but if I ever make a console roguelike with 8 way movement, you just made a decision for me.
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Jun 10, 2015 23:28
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Not to interrupt controller chat, but does anyone have a thorough guide (or better yet a LP) for Dream Quest? This game is so addictive and I'm so bad at it. Google brings me back to the same tips, and nothing on the unlockable classes.
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Jun 10, 2015 23:54
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Ahh that's a pretty good idea, I like it. You'll pry my vikeys from my cold dead hands but if I ever make a console roguelike with 8 way movement, you just made a decision for me. You could also try doing it the way One Way Heroics does, where you can do diagonal inputs with the dpad/stick but you can also hold a button to force diagonal movement.
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Jun 11, 2015 00:53
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:You could also try doing it the way One Way Heroics does, where you can do diagonal inputs with the dpad/stick but you can also hold a button to force diagonal movement. Oh, so that's why One Way Heroics' controls are so weird!  The game has a very simple control scheme otherwise and I had no idea why there was this random modifier key needed to move diagonally, but if they're targeting controllers then it makes a lot more sense.
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Jun 11, 2015 00:56
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Oh, so that's why One Way Heroics' controls are so weird! Well that and people who don't have numpads on their keyboards
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Jun 11, 2015 01:20
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lets hang out posted:Well that and people who don't have numpads on their keyboards However most keyboards have hjkl.
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Jun 11, 2015 01:33
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Anyone else having weird visual glitches with ToME 2.3.5? Sometimes tiles aren't representing properly (like I'll move into a blank space, but the game will tell me it's an obstacle) and other times the @ symbol doesn't refresh properly (leaves a trail of @ symbols behind me as I move) I downloaded the Windows installer from here: http://www.zaimoni.com/zaiband/Angband.ref/ToME/ Is there a tile set for ToME 2.3.5 by any chance?
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Jun 11, 2015 01:59
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uPen posted:However most keyboards have hjkl.
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Jun 11, 2015 02:05
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I learned them in a couple of days of Crawl on my laptop. Now I can't go back to anything else. It's just so easy to reach things.
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Jun 11, 2015 02:27
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:How the hell would you move in crawl on a gamepad? I could see a dpad working in a game with 4 way movement but gently caress dying because I missed a diagonal on that mushy xbox dpad. Generally you hold down a button and an arrow indicating your movement pops up, you confirm with another button press. Tons of games have done this before, wanderer/mystery dungeon games, for example.
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Jun 11, 2015 05:18
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That sounds pretty cumbersome. I feel like move/attack has to be a 1-button = 1-action sort of thing, at least in crawl.
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Jun 11, 2015 05:26
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You could get down to the temple with 4 buttons, auto-attack, auto-explore, find stairs and go down.
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Jun 11, 2015 05:30
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uPen posted:You could get down to the temple with 4 buttons, auto-attack, auto-explore, find stairs and go down. only if you get lucky and don't run into gnolls, ogres, orc priests, sigmund, etc on D:1/D:2
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Jun 11, 2015 05:37
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PotatoManJack posted:Anyone else having weird visual glitches with ToME 2.3.5? Sometimes tiles aren't representing properly (like I'll move into a blank space, but the game will tell me it's an obstacle) and other times the @ symbol doesn't refresh properly (leaves a trail of @ symbols behind me as I move) Are you deliberately playing an ancient version of ToME to see what it's like? I mean, more power to you, but I don't think you're going to find much support for it.
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Jun 11, 2015 09:32
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Are you deliberately playing an ancient version of ToME to see what it's like? I mean, more power to you, but I don't think you're going to find much support for it. ToME 2 isn't the same game as ToME 4. There's a 2.3.10 build out there with bug fixes. dis astranagant fucked around with this message at 09:37 on Jun 11, 2015 |
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Jun 11, 2015 09:34
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friends don't let friends play *bands
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Jun 11, 2015 09:38
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Finally finished a game of the Curious Expedition. It's a really great and goofy game and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Any tips on how to get high standing? I'm still missing that one explorer.
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Jun 11, 2015 10:44
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There's a perk that starts you at 13 or 14 standing each expedition, and trading with natives gives you +1 standing. Other than that, keep a first aid kit or red mushroom on hand in case a wounded native shows up, and don't blow up mountains, rob shrines, or kill animals. Having an interpreter around seems to help a little too.
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Jun 11, 2015 13:29
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There is a thread for the Curious Expedition: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3724572 Feel free to share tips and stories of your epic journeys. 
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Jun 11, 2015 14:02
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:friends don't let friends play *bands That's cute. I bet you'd say playing NetHack is A-OK though. (Both games are ancient and have a lot of bad design ideas, but that doesn't mean they can't be fun)
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Jun 11, 2015 14:46
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