|
crabrock posted:watch Buffy for a good example of dialogue. Watch anything Joss Whedon did for a good example of dialogue. Seriously though Buffy holds up on Story and dialogue. It's all about finding a balance between exposition and dialogue. Try to avoid exposition that doesn't have an effect on the dialogue. SkaAndScreenplays fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Jun 18, 2015 |
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 07:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 13:06 |
|
|
SkaAndScreenplays posted:
I've started just replacing characters when I get stuck with dialogue, seeing what happens. Usually it's just for my own amusement but I quite often get ideas from it, even if it's just in terms of what not to do.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 10:15
|
|
|
Bobby Deluxe posted:I've started just replacing characters when I get stuck with dialogue, seeing what happens. Usually it's just for my own amusement but I quite often get ideas from it, even if it's just in terms of what not to do. GIlmore girls is a great example of what not to do with dialogue. It's all delivery and no setup. And you don't have to imagine how it would translate to prose because The World Is An Awful Place.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 10:23
|
|
|
sebmojo posted:A quick and dirty method (stolen from GMing roleplaying games) is to assign characters from films to your characters. So like that bartender is Harvey Keitel in Reservoir Dogs, and the barmaid is, poo poo, I dunno, Rainbow Dash from my little pony or w/e. Doesn't actually matter who you pick but it will differentiate them and give you a spine to hang character development on and it will be entirely impossible to pick the antecedents since no one knows who you're seeing in your head when you write. If you feel weird just picking up someone else's character and running off with them, the longer method is to make a lot of notes about the character! It's what I do when I can't get an organic "feel" for the voice just by thinking about the character. It's hard for me to describe the process I go through when working on character voices, because I always conceptualise characters voice-first and voices do tend to just pop into my head. Everything else comes later. However, here's a quick checklist of things that will influence someone's ~character voice~ that you can nail down:
Also, for the what rather than the how, I have these big lists of character traits assigned to each character. Like so: p. bird's awfully organised notes posted:ANZU: swishy, slightly histrionic, arch, "coiled spring", mean and cutting, affected, theatrical, melodramatic; soft at heart, kind, "team mum", fussy, perfectionist, clever and quick on the uptake; eccentric, clotheshorse, queer; honest, loyal, easily swayed and stubborn by turns. And when characters are talking to each other, I mentally run through their key traits (some are more key than others) and see how they apply. Since everyone's got different traits, everyone's gonna be saying different things. Just remember to apply more than one or two traits per conversation so you don't get cardboard cut-outs talking to each other. (If anyone is curious, I can go through a specific example of dialogue and explain the reasoning but I don't wanna take up space if nobody cares and also this is all pretty intuitive to me and I'm bad at explaining.)
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 10:34
|
|
|
Good dialogue: Scrubs and Buffy.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 13:55
|
|
|
painted bird posted:If you feel weird just picking up someone else's character and running off with them, the longer method is to make a lot of notes about the character! It's what I do when I can't get an organic "feel" for the voice just by thinking about the character.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 13:55
|
|
|
Yeah, I generally nail down the specifics and nuances of characterisation in scenes. But I'm not going to be able to remember every facet of every single character, so the lists are there so I don't accidentally forget something important.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 14:56
|
|
|
Dr. Kloctopussy posted:(YA fantasy with female protagonists. If you want a big list of those, I'm probably the one to ask!) Please list. Also, does anyone know of any textbooks on fiction writing? There are elements of it that absoultely would fit in a textbook. It seems like every "normal" book I like at is like... a couple hundred pages of bullshit with a single point buried in there somewhere. Like, they'll spend the first third of book going over the many authors who would improve and how you would improve if only you did things the way they did things but by that time I've said "gently caress this" and moved on. "Story Engineering" was recommended in a thread somewhere around here and it was especially bad about this.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 15:02
|
|
|
If you haven't already written like over 100,000 words, just write that many words and get feedback of every short story you write. If you still feel you need a writing textbook after that, get one.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 15:07
|
|
|
SkaAndScreenplays posted:
lol where's chillmatic
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 15:09
|
|
|
fruit loop posted:Also, does anyone know of any textbooks on fiction writing? If you want it to sell, David Gaughran - Let's Get Visible. e: if you mean academic textbooks, I have a few but I can't be arsed to type them out unless that's definitely what you're after. Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Jun 18, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 15:53
|
|
|
There really isn't a "textbook" per se on how to be a good writer unless you count grammar textbooks, but those will only teach you how to write a good sentence, not a good story. For the latter, there's really no replacement for simply reading tons of novels to see how others have done it. That said, the aforementioned On Writing is fantastic and I highly recommend it for anyone who wants to seriously dedicate themselves to this. edit; I should clarify to say I'm not suggesting you can't gain useful knowledge from how-to books and what not on fiction writing, as you certainly can. But simply reading a book on how to write good fiction won't make you a competent storyteller unless you supplement it with reading and writing fiction yourself. Cpt. Mahatma Gandhi fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Jun 18, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 16:21
|
|
|
Bobby Deluxe posted:Stephen King - On Writing The best part of this book was reading about King's life. The writing guide parts were solid if not particularly earth-shattering, but I think the most valuable part in the book is his description of how he started writing. He started out writing lovely little short stories, then eventually he liked one enough to submit it. Then it got rejected over and over but he JUST WROTE and eventually something got accepted. The reading list at the back is also good for those who need to JUST READ. (For reals, everybody go read more books)
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 17:32
|
|
|
I really don't get the love for On Writing. He's enthusiastic about writing, sure. But if you need vicarious enthusiasm that's a bit of a problem.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 17:41
|
|
|
Mrenda posted:I really don't get the love for On Writing. He's enthusiastic about writing, sure. But if you need vicarious enthusiasm that's a bit of a problem. It's got an interesting autobiography, a short and useful style guide, and a pretty good reading list. If it helps people learn how to use punctuation properly and realize that their very first efforts will probably be crap but they have to keep going, well that's pretty good.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 18:15
|
|
|
It's one of the few books about writing that's not completely up it's own arse.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 19:24
|
|
|
fruit loop posted:Please list. A Writing Textbook, You Say? I have a bunch of writing books and they all say basically the same things, different ways. 1) Read a bunch 2) Write a bunch 3) It doesn't hurt to also take a look at a basic diagram of narrative structure (it looks like this: set up, choice, rising/falling action, you can never go back, oh poo poo oh poo poo, things are the worst I could ever imagine, character realizes something important and finds strength, defeat the bad dudes or fail but learn something, everyone hugs or cries or whatever) YA Fantasy Novels with Female Protagonists The real importance in having a "Books I Have Read" list like this one is that I am very familiar with the genre and what's expected in terms of conflict, plot structure, danger levels, romance, length, etc. I also know what characteristics female protags have in popular books, and which ones I actually like them to have, plus more esoteric things like "how much description of dresses should I include?" (answer: a surprising amount, even if the girl in question is an assassin). Plus, If I want to, for example, write a book about a girl who is actually a dragon/half-dragon/psychically bonded to a dragon, I have already read ~3 other books that have done that (Talon, Seraphina, Eon: Dragoneye Reborn). Or a retelling of Cinderella (Cinder, Ella Enchanted) Or a competition to become the princess (The Selection, Princess Academy). Do I want to write a kiss scene in 1st person present POV? Hunger Games has one. Someone is stabbed and dies? Throne of Glass. Someone is stabbed and doesn't die? Throne of Glass, Graceling, Shadow and Bone. Daring Escapes. Love triangles. Magic gone awry. Girls-posing-as-boys. Problems riding horses. Arguments with parents. Challenging the monarch. Hiding under the floor. Getting shot with an arrow. I can find examples of all of these things in the books I've read. And I know I can find more if I actually decide to use any of them. Anyway, here is a short list of that kind of book that I have read and enjoyed. Practically all of the following are the first book in a series. My favorite ongoing series (i.e. I track the release dates of the next book): Cinder by Marissa Meyer -- My current #1 favorite and the last book is supposed to come out in November, yaaaayyyyy! Also, I guess it's actually sci-fi/dystopian, but whatever. So Good. Throne of Glass by Sarah J. Maas -- My favorite after reading books #1 and #2, less so after book #3, and I'm less excited now that I see it's going to be a six book series, but a lot of this may just be because I don't want to watch a bad stuff happen in the romance plot (which is inevitable) for another 3 books.  [next release: September 2015]Etiquette and Espionage -- It is a steampunk assassin school on a dirigible and I am not embarrassed at all that I like it. [next release: November 2015] Last Dragon Slayer by Jasper Fforde -- cute, light-hearted. [Next release: ????] Other popular ongoing series that are acceptable and I read when I see them: Seraphina by Rachel Hartman -- Half-dragon musician. Something about the end made me feel kinda eh, might read 2nd book in series, but not high on my list, and my list is crowded. The Sin-Eaters Daughter by Melinda Salisbury -- An interesting enough world that I will read book 2 The Girl of Fire and Thorns by Rae Carson -- The next book in the series has the potential to push this into a "favorite" series. Enjoyed, Series Ended: Tiffany Aching (Series name) by Terry Pratchett -- I LOVE THESE. Technically part of the Discworld series, but really their own mini-series. They are wonderful and Tiffany is the best and most practical witch. Graceling by Kristin Cashore -- I really enjoyed this at the time, but now it's been 2 years and it doesn't stick out as much. That's a fairly typical experience though, I think, with YA. Leviathan by Scott Westerfield -- I love a good girl-disguised-as-boy story Shadow and Bone by Leigh Bardugo -- Was one of my favorite series, but I haven't finished the final book because...it got too dark and I am a wimp She has a new series coming out in September in the same world which is also a heist novel, so I might finish up series #1 so I can read that without worrying about spoilers. I seriously only have like 50 pages left in the last book of the Grisha trilogy, but I am scared to read it. Maybe I'll just skip to the end.Mortal Engines by Philip Reeve -- arguably has a male protagonist, but Hester is definitely one of the two main characters and it's really good. Arguably Middle Grade, but classic: The Golden Compass by Phillip Pullman A Wrinkle in Time by Madeline L'Engle Over Sea, Under Stone by Susan Cooper Howl's Moving Castle by Diana Wynne Jones Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Jun 18, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 21:10
|
|
|
My column to be published tomorrow is about the best books about writing. Aren't you a lucky motherfucker.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 21:22
|
|
|
Mrenda posted:I really don't get the love for On Writing. He's enthusiastic about writing, sure. But if you need vicarious enthusiasm that's a bit of a problem. I think it's a good book with some decent advice based on common sense and King's own experiences. Nothing earth shattering about advice like, Second draft = first draft - 10% , simple vocab used well > fancy vocab, etc but it's useful stuff. That said, I don't know why you think that is a good book to pump someone up about writing. King doesn't pull punches and he has a few really sobering beliefs about writing. If I recall, there is a bit in there where he thinks every writer has an innate set potential. And if you happen to be a writer who has a pretty poor potential, you can work hard and become adequate, but you will never become great no matter how hard you work. That's not something you say to new writers if you want to convince them that they have a good chance at succeeding. If you want a book to make you feel good about writing then try Art & Fear by David Bayles & Ted Orland. It's more focused on visual art but the ideas in it apply to pretty much any creative discipline. It's a book that has gotten many a student through art school with their sanity roughly intact.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 21:47
|
|
|
JuniperCake posted:That's not something you say to new writers if you want to convince them that they have a good chance at succeeding. Lol why would you want to do that?
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 21:53
|
|
|
JuniperCake posted:If I recall, there is a bit in there where he thinks every writer has an innate set potential. And if you happen to be a writer who has a pretty poor potential, you can work hard and become adequate, but you will never become great no matter how hard you work. I'll give you that one. That's a weird loving part of that book. Then again King talks a lot of poo poo and contradicts himself constantly, so...
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 21:57
|
|
|
A lot of writers share King's sentiment w/r/t potential. I remember a bit in a Hunter Thompson biography where he shares a similar view. It's not unique to writers or artists even. Anyone who rises to the top believes they were meant to after the fact. Maybe they're right too. Why go through all the effort and heartbreak if you think you're mediocre? You have to be narcissistic enough to believe you're a great writer waiting to be discovered and to ignore everyone telling you otherwise. (But not enough of one that you can't separate that from constructive criticism. Gotta bring the great writer out if they're going to be found.)
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 22:22
|
|
|
If you read something that says "some writers will never be great," and that makes you want to stop writing, then you should stop writing. Seriously.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 23:13
|
|
|
are there any examples of published (and also failed) complete synopses of both books and comics? thanks, cya, peace
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2015 02:19
|
|
|
blue squares posted:If you read something that says "some writers will never be great," and that makes you want to stop writing, then you should stop writing. Seriously. I agree with this. I will never be a great writer. But if I can work hard and become a decent writer who writes stories that some people find worth their time, I will take a lot of satisfaction in that. I take that into account when I'm setting my goals.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2015 02:20
|
|
|
gently caress that poo poo im gonna become legendary
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2015 02:21
|
|
|
Also some writers (or whatevers) are never going to be great but you only figure that out after literally decades of commitment, whether it's starting baseball in the pee-wee leagues or writing lovely short stories in the TDome. You're going to suck, you're going to get better, and eventually you're going to be the best you're ever going to be and everything afterwards will be a slow but inevitable decline. Welcome to the human condition, blood bag, now get in line with the rest of us. All of us are mortal and death waits for us all, so stop trying to figure out the odds and just write.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2015 02:32
|
|
|
LOU BEGAS MUSTACHE posted:are there any examples of published (and also failed) complete synopses of both books and comics? I have a synopsis I used to sell MY BOOK and I will send it to you if you are down with the spoiler.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2015 02:44
|
|
|
General Battuta posted:I have a synopsis I used to sell MY BOOK and I will send it to you if you are down with the spoiler. this would rock greatly if you would do this and i will offer you my warmest of internet praises. "you're cool, dude".
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2015 02:46
|
|
|
General Battuta posted:I have a synopsis I used to sell MY BOOK and I will send it to you if you are down with the spoiler. want in on this action. You got my email.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2015 14:15
|
|
|
Here's my column with books about writing recs: https://litreactor.com/columns/5-great-books-about-the-craft-of-writing
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2015 22:55
|
|
|
ravenkult posted:Good dialogue: Scrubs and Buffy. Also I was talking to my girlfriend about bad T.V. shows and she got quiet when I mentioned my disdain for the Girls of Gilmore. So now I speak as quickly as possible and make sure half my conversation is completely without context to the situations we find ourselves in.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2015 02:36
|
|
|
I really wish Chillmatic would come back to this thread and flip his poo poo when he sees you disparaging Gilmore Girls dialogue.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2015 03:04
|
|
|
Martello posted:I really wish Chillmatic would come back to this thread and flip his poo poo when he sees you disparaging Gilmore Girls dialogue. Don't worry, I got you covered: Chillmatic posted:No, it's really not. I mean maybe on some terrible shows it's like that, but as a rule everything I've seen in movies and TV recently is miles better than the loving garbage I posted here. edit: Chillmatic posted:Your writing is bad and you suck a lot. Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Jun 20, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2015 05:42
|
|
|
The Gilmore Girls is/are (both the show and the characters) cool and good you jive turkey.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2015 06:49
|
|
|
Chairchucker posted:The Gilmore Girls is/are (both the show and the characters) cool and good you jive turkey. Parts of it were good but on the whole I was not a fan.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2015 09:44
|
|
|
Gilmore Girls is a piece of poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2015 13:47
|
|
|
Spongebob Squarepants has the best dialogue. It is thought-provoking.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2015 05:29
|
|
|
Dr. Kloctopussy posted:Don't worry, I got you covered: Haha thanks
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2015 14:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 13:06 |
|
|
General Battuta posted:I have a synopsis I used to sell MY BOOK and I will send it to you if you are down with the spoiler. Can you send this to me, too? I'll PM you my email.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2015 16:24
|
|
