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fr: some characters start with a little white knapsack that they can unpack into top-tier items, extra experience points, and cultural baggage
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Jun 25, 2015 16:38
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The black guy class gets +2 to strength and extra stealth at night. Stealing from shops brings on more keystone kops than normal. His quest has him facing off against the man.
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Jun 25, 2015 16:41
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SnowblindFatal posted:Are you suggesting that a person playing Slash'em will start to think that transvestites like to diddle kids? Lighten up dude.
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Jun 25, 2015 18:30
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SnowblindFatal posted:Are you suggesting that a person playing Slash'em will start to think that transvestites like to diddle kids? Lighten up dude. I don't know about the other guy, but what I'm saying is that "joke" looks like it was written by someone who got rejected from family guy for being too lazy.
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Jun 25, 2015 19:42
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Yeah, I'm going with bigoted and unfunny. You can sometimes get away with one or the other, but never both. In the interests of making GBS threads on the correct target though, this is part of Slash'em Extended rather than Slash'em. (The devteams are disjoint as far as I can tell.)
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Jun 25, 2015 19:51
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Another Qud bug report: if you are wielding a ranged weapon, the weapon status line overlaps the name of your current target. "desert rifle [4]in" should read "seed-spitting vine". I kind of hope you're collecting all of these for one massive bugfixing orgy before officially releasing it. 
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Jun 25, 2015 21:16
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ToxicFrog posted:Another Qud bug report: if you are wielding a ranged weapon, the weapon status line overlaps the name of your current target. There is a megapatch dropping in the next week or two with bugs plus a ton of new faction encounters. Then we'll start shorter iteration patches leading up to early access release.
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Jun 26, 2015 02:27
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I vaguely recall this roguelike where you were a robot, and you could beat up other robots and upgrade yourself from things you took from them. Anyone know which one this is? I couldn't find it in the OP when I looked.
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Jun 26, 2015 03:21
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Edwhirl posted:I vaguely recall this roguelike where you were a robot, and you could beat up other robots and upgrade yourself from things you took from them. Cogmind?
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Jun 26, 2015 03:22
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final fantasy legacy
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Jun 26, 2015 03:23
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Edwhirl posted:I vaguely recall this roguelike where you were a robot, and you could beat up other robots and upgrade yourself from things you took from them. Was it one of the Gearhead roguelikes?
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Jun 26, 2015 03:57
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Edwhirl posted:I vaguely recall this roguelike where you were a robot, and you could beat up other robots and upgrade yourself from things you took from them. It sounds like Megabyte Punch, but that's a platformer/fighter, not a roguelike.
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Jun 26, 2015 04:05
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I think there was some Angband variant that had robot stuff like that.
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Jun 26, 2015 04:19
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no that's exactly cogmind
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Jun 26, 2015 13:39
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wrong thread im stupid. But yes Cogmind fits that description hard.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:38
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The Silver Snail posted:I think there was some Angband variant that had robot stuff like that. Steamband, where you could play an automaton and give yourself new arms or heads.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:42
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Wasn't that the one where you started at the bottom and worked your way to the surface? I seem to remember an lp of that.
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Jun 26, 2015 23:11
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Cogmind looks like a lot of fun, too bad the font makes my eyes bleed.
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Jun 27, 2015 01:27
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Cogmind's sci-fi font doesn't work for everyone, that's why it comes with 82 different fonts. See some of the newly added traditional options here. Oh, and hi all. Been lurking on SA for years (I love this thread, and the one that preceded it), but only just signed up today =p. Now I don't have to wait until the paywall comes down and spend an entire day catching up on threads, yay!
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Jun 27, 2015 02:41
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Kyzrati posted:Cogmind's sci-fi font doesn't work for everyone, that's why it comes with 82 different fonts. See some of the newly added traditional options here. What up Kyzrati, I've followed your blog for a long time and I've been fascinated by (and learned a lot of stuff from) your dissections of Cogmind's inner workings. I've really appreciated how transparent you've been about the whole development process, glad to have you posting here. it's customary for goon roguelike devs to hand out free keys to their game by the way
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Jun 27, 2015 02:59
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the glow posted:What up Kyzrati, I've followed your blog for a long time and I've been fascinated by (and learned a lot of stuff from) your dissections of Cogmind's inner workings. I've really appreciated how transparent you've been about the whole development process, glad to have you posting here. I agree with everything this person has said. Their statements are accurate in every respect. In unrelated news, has anyone played a bit of Mage Guild? It's a bad game for somebody who likes things with good in-game documentation, but it's great for anyone who just likes fuckin' around with interactions; it's got a robust item-mixing system where you rub items against each other and see what happens. John Lee fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 03:08
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On the heels of the revelation of Fallout 4's crafting system I wanted to revisit the discussion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH8HGslrINU Do you guys who dislike The Pit's crafting system approve of what has been presented so far of Fallout 4's crafting system? Do you think crafting has any place in a roguelike? What crafting system have you encountered that you most enjoy (video, boardgame, any media)? In a roguelike? Can we really have a discussion about a crafting system without an analysis of item drop tables? Unormal/HandofLuke after you release the change to Qud's crafting, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the subject. What you tried to to, how it turned out, why you changed it. Personally I favor crafting systems in general because I like the minigame of tearing stuff down and building other stuff. I'm just in that category. Having stated my bias, I never really understood the hate for Dragon Age Inquisition's crafting system, other than acknowledging the points that 1)crafting existed to justify the mmo fetch reagents part of the game 2)being able to craft heavy armor for light armor wearing classes seemed like designing an intentional cheat into the system. The crafting system I can recall that I enjoyed the most was Knight's of the Old Republic II's system. As I understood it, KotOR 2's encounters and most of their treasure chests rolled on a random loot table rather than having defined equipment drops for every situation. You could render equipment you found to its component parts. Parts could be combine to make equipment or equipment upgrades, providing the character crafting had the sufficient skill level to make the desired object. Armor and weapons had from 0 to 3 slots for equipment upgrades. I liked this system. Skill level had an additional function apart from the skill itself in combat/exploration/dialogue. You could specialize your armor/weapons with equipment upgrades for specific battle/environment situations. There was no main tinkering skill (iirc) that you had to sink points into in order to gain access to crafting, that only governed the ability to craft. The number of components required to craft useful equipment scaled pretty well with level and usefulness; resulting in situations where debating between selling a rare piece of equipment you can't use to get either money to buy more useful equipment or components to make useful equipment was a meaningful choice. Having said all that I'm not sure KotOR 2's crafting system would be welcome or useful in a roguelike. On the other hand, functionally I don't see crafting as any different from buying equipment from a shop. The difference is of course that crafting as generally implemented is a persistent number of recipes that are accessible to the player every game, and equipment bought in shops varies from game to game. And of course the obvious that crafting is just purchasing equipment with restrictions on the forms of currency you can use. And that generally relying on random drops to craft objects provides much fewer pieces of equipment obtained and more inventory bloat for the player than just relying on a gold/purchase equipment from shop model for player choice in obtaining equipment. Anyway, those are my crafting thoughts this Friday 
Helical Nightmares fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 04:25
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Helical Nightmares posted:Do you guys who dislike The Pit's crafting system approve of what has been presented so far of Fallout 4's crafting system? Crafting chat! I'll bite. I don't like Pit's crafting, I'm warmer to FO4's, for a few reasons. A major one is it isn't a roguelike. When I'm dealing with permadeath in a genre where I already hate dealing with inventory, that changes a lot of things about how I approach it and what bothers me about it. In FO4 (or any similar non roguelike game) I can take as much or as little time as I want storing mountains of garbage in my forest murder hobo hideout. I can craft everything or nothing, I can obsess over it or use it a little. I can make perfect super-items, or just enhance my poo poo and make a few useful items and move on. In a roguelike with permadeath and limited inventory space (and often time), decisions about what to carry and use are all being weighed against other options.
-- Obviously, optional crafting with good usability would be ideal (or critical crafting, if that's a major part of the game concept!). Not every game is going to get there. I'd say most games don't get there. Crafting systems have a lot, lot, lot of problems in that they inherently create a lot of additional design headaches. They share similar problems with a la carte character skill systems, where cherry picking the 'best' skills and min/maxing skill usage and growth is very often the optimal way to play. In this case, you cherry pick the 'best' most easily used and abused recipes and resultant items, while weaker or more difficult items get left by the wayside barring unusual circumstances (generally blind luck or a particular combination of character skills that makes edge case items very powerful). So you have to aim for making every single crafting option at any stage of the game viable but not too weak or strong (good luck). Ideally, your crafted items let the player solve a problem, because the added degree of control lets them create the most appropriate solution for their current circumstances, and the added effort to create the item should (?) be rewarded. Such control is powerful, and so... ...you limit player access to crafting. There's a lot of ways to limit it, be it from random material drops, recipes that must be discovered in-game, skill requirements demanding an investment of growth resources, or some combination of those and others. So now you've put shackles on your crafting system, necessitating the design and balancing of an entire item economy on top of your existing item economy - presuming some combination of the 'normal' roguelike item sources, random drops + fixed drops + possibly stores as well. What too often happens is you have a situation where, at any given stage of the game in comparison to normal drops, your crafted items are either too strong, too weak, or, about the same strength but they took a bunch of extra effort to get so why bother. Ideally, they'll be similar in strength or maybe a bit stronger by virtue of either raw power or perfect situational problem-solving. -- That's the longform way of expressing why I generally don't like crafting, the shorthand would be 'crafting often sucks', it often sucks in any game, it really often sucks in a roguelike. And that's not again harping on my utter distaste for the sock sorting that too often accompanies handling crafting inventory in a roguelike (gently caress you if you like Dredmore crafting you weirdo  ).What's good about crafting? Done well, it gives you a feeling of investment in your equipment that you don't often get from random loot. Most loot in roguelikes that rely on random drops often has little to no 'story' attached to it. That is, you just found the Galaxy Crushing Assblade Of The Apocalypse, but it dropped from a Rabid Turborat on the 5th floor of Randomized Dungeon ABC. Mayyyyyybe it came from the Chest of Guaranteed Good Loot after a boss fight (which are usually bad in roguelikes, but that'd be a different rant). But usually it's a pretty forgettable source, you're happy, you slot it in, yay, on to the next fight. But a crafted item, even though you probably found the parts in various monster entrails and/or inexplicable dungeon shoppes, you choose what to build, and it suits you and your circumstances specifically as best as the game will let you make it. Most importantly, in a game with good crafting, it also serves as another source of interesting decisions, where you can't have everything, and you want everything, so what do you take? The very best crafting in a roguelike can add another layer of interesting decisions, parallel to character growth and equipment selection, in the same manner that good combat in a roguelike is made up of many interesting small tactical decisions, and good exploration in a roguelike is made up of interesting strategic decisions about when and where to go to unique locations. -- TLDR: Crafting often sucks. Crafting often sucks more in roguelikes. But good crafting can enhance a game by adding another interesting mechanical system that is personal in the same manner as character growth, and if it's really good, additionally enhances other areas of the game (usually combat, but no reason it can't impact npc interaction or exploration or whatever).
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Jun 27, 2015 05:06
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I only tend to like crafting systems where all of the individual parts that are used to craft can be used (and are useful) on their own. When inventories start being crammed full of crafting bits that I can't use for anything other than saving up to craft something, I just sell all the parts and 'craft' with currency and some luck using shops. If there aren't shops (or currency), I just drop and ignore them, then proceed to bitch about the game not giving me anything useful.
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Jun 27, 2015 05:26
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Just got into Cogmind: loving the poo poo outta it. First run,stumbled onto a grenade launcher, fired it into a room full of bots,got buttfucked by a chain reaction outta nowhere,then oneshot by a low-level redshirt shortly after I narrowly escaped said explosion with my life. Excellent.
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Jun 27, 2015 06:12
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Cogmind looks about right. Thanks.
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Jun 27, 2015 07:28
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I bought Cogmind earlier this evening and oh no now it's 2 am what happened to all that time
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Jun 27, 2015 08:13
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the glow posted:What up Kyzrati, I've followed your blog for a long time and I've been fascinated by (and learned a lot of stuff from) your dissections of Cogmind's inner workings. I've really appreciated how transparent you've been about the whole development process, glad to have you posting here.  . I plan to do handouts in the future, goons included, but because it's still early in alpha and more importantly because of the whole "crowdfunding and exclusivity" type of launch it wouldn't be fair to start doing that just yet. I'm very grateful for everyone willing to throw in their support now, but to others who wait, whether you get a free key or not at some point later on, you'll be getting even more content anyway. It's only going to keep getting better as I pour my life into it  I do want to run a tournament next month in which the prizes include free keys to gift to others, so maybe if we have some talented Cogmind goons they can spread the happiness that way =p And thanks, I enjoy writing and there's a lot of fun topics to write about with Cogmind, so I just let the text flow... (too bad I'm so drat slow at writing) lets hang out posted:I bought Cogmind earlier this evening and oh no now it's 2 am what happened to all that time VolticSurge posted:Just got into Cogmind: loving the poo poo outta it. First run,stumbled onto a grenade launcher, fired it into a room full of bots,got buttfucked by a chain reaction outta nowhere,then oneshot by a low-level redshirt shortly after I narrowly escaped said explosion with my life. Excellent.  John Lee posted:In unrelated news, has anyone played a bit of Mage Guild? It's a bad game for somebody who likes things with good in-game documentation, but it's great for anyone who just likes fuckin' around with interactions; it's got a robust item-mixing system where you rub items against each other and see what happens. It's awesome for just mixing stuff, and there's always something new to uncover. And... apparently nowhere to read about the combinations so you'll end up doing some downright strange but fun stuff. The cool thing is almost everything can be mixed to some result, unlike other games where you can guess forever and might not hit some useful combination.
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Jun 27, 2015 09:04
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I feel like the main thing crafting systems need is that they not impede the flow of the game. If you're sitting there for five minutes (or even just 30 seconds) trying to decide which crafting items to take with you on the off-chance that they might come in useful down the road, then that's a problem. Similarly if you spend that kind of time trying to decide what to craft. Crafting systems ought to be simple, fairly restricted in what they can make, and existing primarily for the purpose of giving you flexibility in how you use your limited resources. I mentioned this game last time the crafting discussion came up, but Teleglitch is really quite good here. The crafting system is just popping up a menu that lists all the ways your inventory items can combine and what they'd produce if they did. Select an item from the menu, click, done. And the recipes are almost all pretty straightforward too, mostly being "combine this standard equipment item with this "upgrade item" (e.g. hardware, microchip, explosives, tin can(s)) to make a better version of the original." The constraints on crafting aren't on your knowledge of the system and how to game it, but rather on the available resources, since the game is a survival-horror style game and items are in strictly limited supply.
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Jun 27, 2015 15:14
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The crafting in Mage Guild is really, really good.
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Jun 27, 2015 15:26
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One of my favorite "crafting" systems is wishing or acquirement. It's rare, helps fill a gap that the RNG has left open, and is quick. It also doesn't require fiddling with bullshit inventory systems where you need to make widget #35 and doohicky #7 in order to make one part of the thing you actually want to build. That being said, I do enjoy Cataclysm's crafting system. It could be much better and more streamlined, but it's an integral part of the game and it's fun to work your way up and build cool things, especially vehicles.
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Jun 27, 2015 17:26
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Kyzrati posted:Yeah I'm familiar with Unormal and madjackmcmad's SOP Fair? lol. We are the 1% here in elite privileged goon roguelike forum. Besides, saying that giving out a key to people isn't fair to your alpha backers also says giving out keys isn't fair to anyone who paid for the game at any point in the infinite future. If you want anyone playing your early alpha build, it's these cats here. Actually what will work well for you is to drop a couple of keys via PM or email on people in this thread who reach out to you and offer genuine alpha testery. They'll deliver, with feedback. Don't just post them in the thread because lurkers will grab them and you won't get that sweet sweet gooncritique.
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Jun 27, 2015 17:52
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Probably also worth mentioning Sil in any discussion of roguelike crafting systems, though I'm not experienced enough with the game to offer any conclusions from it.
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Jun 27, 2015 18:24
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I tend to enjoy any crafting system that allows you to break down objects you find into their core components and then use those to build other things, especially in roguelikes where its possible to just get super unlucky and not find a good version of the one thing you are specialized in.
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Jun 27, 2015 18:27
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Clever Spambot posted:I tend to enjoy any crafting system that allows you to break down objects you find into their core components and then use those to build other things, especially in roguelikes where its possible to just get super unlucky and not find a good version of the one thing you are specialized in. This is the opposite of the crafting systems I like, because I don't want to have a reason to pick up stuff I won't use directly. Sil's seems pretty good, but I, too, don't have enough experience to really draw any conclusions about its effects on the game.
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Jun 27, 2015 19:37
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this seems like it's vaguely unrelated, but i like crafting systems where you do cool poo poo like mash a bunch of glowy crystal poo poo together to make something with no real explanation as to how it functions because ultimately it's a videogame and the mental image of doing that is neater to me than something trying to be Super Realistic about crafting but ultimately falling short.
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Jun 27, 2015 19:44
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Crafting should not increase the chaos, it should be tools to minimize it, rewarding careful players without punishing those who do not spoil themselves. Acquirement-esque that you earn over time with somewhat generic resources. Don't have 80 billion fiddly bits, make it so whatever you get is useful in someway, but could be used better with A)Patience B)Proper strategy. best example is DoomRL, if you take away the recipe obfuscation. Weapon Mods are immediately useful to anyone, regardless of decisions, but can be maximized with some patience/inventory management and even further by choosing a character that optimizes crafting. It lacks in the case that obtaining weapon mods can be a very luck driven affair, and the recipes are generally so powerful ignoring them is almost always detrimental.
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Jun 27, 2015 19:57
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Clever Spambot posted:I tend to enjoy any crafting system that allows you to break down objects you find into their core components and then use those to build other things, especially in roguelikes where its possible to just get super unlucky and not find a good version of the one thing you are specialized in. The first time I tried to brew booze in Cataclysm I found out I needed to build a fermenting vat, and for that I needed a faucet. I went bananas for about five minutes trying to guess which mechanics or fabrication book I needed to find in order to get the recipe for "faucet," checking my map for libraries and likely locations for metalworking tools, and so forth . . . then I realized I could just break into the nearest house and smash up a sink.
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Jun 28, 2015 00:49
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Copy paste all those correct things mad jack said about showering goons with things in private or something.
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Jun 28, 2015 02:50
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I like it when crafting systems go in the opposite direction as well, but it really needs to be a certain type of game. I really love neo scavengers crafting system but it really wouldn't work in anything but the type of survival game it is, if crafting isnt a core focus of the gameplay breaking things down into bits (with a relatively small number of bit types) to make/upgrade things is my preference.
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Jun 28, 2015 03:01
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