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quote:Man of Steel chat 
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Jul 1, 2015 07:17
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Gyges posted:At least the one guy Superman killed didn't have to burn to death and then have everyone ignore his death. Good thing for Matt that Catholicism apparently grants you one manslaughter mulligan. Daredevil is anti-killing, but he doesn't magically always avoid killing anyone like Superman. In the comics he is responsible for a lot of deaths, either by accident or neglect or necessity. One of the early Frank Miller comics has him accidentally knocking a prostitute out a window.
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Jul 1, 2015 11:41
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It'd be interesting if Punisher's family was killed in the Russian bombings and right after he's introduced we see him going after Daredevil, since he was thoroughly blamed for that through Fisk's connections. I can't recall if DD's name was ever cleared in the public's eye for that. I guess I just prefer Punisher gunning right for Daredevil during their first meeting, rather than DD going after Punisher to try to stop his crazy murder spree.
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Jul 1, 2015 12:52
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Hakkesshu posted:Daredevil is anti-killing, but he doesn't magically always avoid killing anyone like Superman. In the comics he is responsible for a lot of deaths, either by accident or neglect or necessity. One of the early Frank Miller comics has him accidentally knocking a prostitute out a window. Yeah, I mean, he is blind...
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Jul 1, 2015 14:04
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Chokes McGee posted:pull up thread PULL UP What have I done! I keep forgetting there are actual fans of that movie, I'm so used to talking poo poo about it as a negative comparison to other superhero stuff, I don't think about the internet fan base. ... I don't hate Zack Snyder like a lot of people, so.. truce? NowonSA posted:It'd be interesting if Punisher's family was killed in the Russian bombings and right after he's introduced we see him going after Daredevil, since he was thoroughly blamed for that through Fisk's connections. I can't recall if DD's name was ever cleared in the public's eye for that. I guess I just prefer Punisher gunning right for Daredevil during their first meeting, rather than DD going after Punisher to try to stop his crazy murder spree. Honestly I've said something similar earlier, but I think that would be awesome for a few levels. Not only does it tie things together nicely, it also sets up what was effectively the Punisher's first comic appearance, with him going after Spider-Man. You could pretty much do an echo of that entire sequence with Murdock instead. It all just kind of clicks together so well I'm honestly thinking I'll be surprised if they don't go that way. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 14:20 on Jul 1, 2015 |
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Jul 1, 2015 14:16
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Hakkesshu posted:Daredevil is anti-killing, but he doesn't magically always avoid killing anyone like Superman. In the comics he is responsible for a lot of deaths, either by accident or neglect or necessity. One of the early Frank Miller comics has him accidentally knocking a prostitute out a window. That prostitute ended up being Typhoid Mary
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Jul 1, 2015 15:26
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bobkatt013 posted:That prostitute ended up being Typhoid Mary That was a really dumb retcon. What a lovely character.
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Jul 1, 2015 15:37
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Hakkesshu posted:One of the early Frank Miller comics has him accidentally knocking a prostitute out a window. This is the most Frank Miller thing ever.
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Jul 1, 2015 15:48
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Hakkesshu posted:Daredevil is anti-killing, but he doesn't magically always avoid killing anyone like Superman. In the comics he is responsible for a lot of deaths, either by accident or neglect or necessity. One of the early Frank Miller comics has him accidentally knocking a prostitute out a window. I don't have a problem at all with Matt killing Nobu. My only issue is that the entire series is the characters talking about how killing is bad and how Matt is on the line. Then the one time he actually does go over the line and kill someone nobody ever mentions it again. The important take away for the characters from the situation is that it's wrong that Matt tried to kill Fisk, ignoring the charred ninja corpse entirely. Just mention it. Talk about the context that makes killing Nobu OK while setting out to kill Fisk is bad. You've spent way too much time talking about killing instead of murder to not do so.
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Jul 1, 2015 15:57
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Matt doesn't kill Nobu. He deflects an attack and it's a coincidence that Nobu dies from it. Matt also doesn't blame himself for pushing the guy into killing himself earlier in the series. Matt is explicitly talking about killing someone with his own two hands, not them (accidentally or not) killing themselves. There isn't a reason to discuss it because we have absolutely no reason to believe Matt would qualify it was murder. It was straight-up self defense and seemingly accidental as well.
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Jul 1, 2015 15:59
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Normally I hate being all "maybe he's not actually dead" but that is kind of a feature of Hand ninjas.
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Jul 1, 2015 16:00
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ImpAtom posted:Matt doesn't kill Nobu. He deflects an attack and it's a coincidence that Nobu dies from it. Matt also doesn't blame himself for pushing the guy into killing himself earlier in the series. Matt is explicitly talking about killing someone with his own two hands, not them (accidentally or not) killing themselves. And before everyone is like "That's just being pedantic, blah blah blah" Matt is a loving lawyer. Of course he's going to let himself off on technicalities to live with himself. That's like his entire job.
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Jul 1, 2015 16:02
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Sounds like a very lawyery way of explaining how it's technically not your fault that these guys are dead so I guess it fits. Edit: haha nice.
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Jul 1, 2015 16:03
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I really don't see killing a guy that's killing you in a fight and going to a place specifically to murder a guy in cold blood to be analogous at all, nor do I think it undermines the themes about killing in the show.
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Jul 1, 2015 16:04
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I didn't kill him, I just hit him a lot and then he stopped breathing spontaneously
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Jul 1, 2015 16:04
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Nobu also might have survived if he'd had any self-preservation in that moment. Despite being on fire, he just keeps attacking Matt.
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Jul 1, 2015 16:06
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zoux posted:I really don't see killing a guy that's killing you in a fight and going to a place specifically to murder a guy in cold blood to be analogous at all, nor do I think it undermines the themes about killing in the show. Actually, since Nobu died as a result of Matt's felony (conspiracy to commit murder), Matt's definitely on the hook for homicide of Nobu. Like if you break into someone's house to murder them, and their roommate is there instead, and attacks you, and then dies as a result of the fight, that's not self defense, and you are going to prison.
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Jul 1, 2015 16:06
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Snak posted:Actually, since Nobu died as a result of Matt's felony (conspiracy to commit murder), Matt's definitely on the hook for homicide of Nobu. I don't give a poo poo about the technical legal aspects of the ninja fight.
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Jul 1, 2015 16:07
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I don't either? I just think it's funny when people are like "uh, it's self defense?"
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Jul 1, 2015 16:08
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Snak posted:Actually, since Nobu died as a result of Matt's felony (conspiracy to commit murder), Matt's definitely on the hook for homicide of Nobu. Nobody can prove conspiracy. The only person he told was a priest.
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Jul 1, 2015 16:44
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Aphrodite posted:Nobody can prove conspiracy. The only person he told was a priest. I was thinking of the crackhead he tortured to get the location of the building he was going to kill Fisk at. I forgot that Fisk had him killed. But yeah, his trail of witnesses leads only to the junkie.
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Jul 1, 2015 16:46
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zoux posted:I don't give a poo poo about the technical legal aspects of the ninja fight. It's a show about a lawyer, for gently caress's sake.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:20
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If you don't care about the technical aspects of the law, go watch CSI or something...
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Jul 1, 2015 17:41
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On the one hand, Nobu's death wasn't pre-meditated, it was in self-defense, and it was an indirect result of Matt's actions. On the other hand, we've been shown Matt has easily used things like ricochets and other "random" stuff like that to his advantage. (And a few episodes earlier, we saw Stick flip a bottle cap with calculated precision.) So it's reasonable to assume Matt knew what would happen when he deflected Nobu's weapons, hence it not being an accident. It still wasn't pre-meditated murder, which was what his moral dilemma was all about, and he was still trying to save himself from imminent death. But since Matt's a devout Catholic, he would likely feel guilty over his hand in Nobu's death, and it would have been nice if that had been brought up in dialogue. It's not a big deal that it wasn't, though. <----Former devout Catholic. Rabbit Hill fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Jul 1, 2015 |
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Jul 1, 2015 17:48
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It was clearly divine providence that caused Nobu to die, as signaled by the fire of hell literally consuming him. If Matt needed a sign that God supported his vigilantism, this was it.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:51
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zoux posted:I really don't see killing a guy that's killing you in a fight and going to a place specifically to murder a guy in cold blood to be analogous at all, nor do I think it undermines the themes about killing in the show. It's not that it undermines the themes, it's that the characters act like it never happened. It's a pretty justified killing, though it seems to me Matt intentionally deflected Nobu's weapon into the light. My issue with it is that Matt doesn't seem to care, which is not in keeping with the rest of the show. He should be feeling some guilt or something over it, instead it's like it never happened and the only morally troubling thing that happened in the warehouse was when Matt took a swipe at Fisk. Similar circumstances were even referenced earlier in his conversations with Rosario Dawson. Which was ruled OK because he was only beating people within an inch of their life, comas don't count. It's not a huge deal, but considering how well the rest of the show handled almost everything else it's a little bit annoying.
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Jul 1, 2015 19:34
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There is nothing to imply Matt intentionally deflected the weapon into the light to kill Nobu. The way it is framed makes it look much more like he was deflecting the attack and it happened to hit an ironically bad place. "Matt killed a guy! Why doesn't he angst about that?" is very easily answeredby "Matt did not, in any way shape or form, intentionally intend to kill him and so he doesn't feel guilt for it." Which is morally questionable but not in a way that is out of character for Matt.
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Jul 1, 2015 19:35
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Gyges posted:It's not that it undermines the themes, it's that the characters act like it never happened. It's a pretty justified killing, though it seems to me Matt intentionally deflected Nobu's weapon into the light. My issue with it is that Matt doesn't seem to care, which is not in keeping with the rest of the show. He should be feeling some guilt or something over it, instead it's like it never happened and the only morally troubling thing that happened in the warehouse was when Matt took a swipe at Fisk. I actually think it's totally in line with it. Matt's logic is that beating someone into a coma is okay, and someone dying in a fight that he starts is okay, as long as it's not murder. Any little tiny loophole for him to not be the bad guy.
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Jul 1, 2015 19:36
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You can easily read the deflection as either intentional or not, there's nothing really pointing either way. It's just with all the other ricocheting and training Matt did with the sticks, it seems to me that it was intentional. Which 100% could just be my knowledge of the character from outside the show interacting with the scene.Snak posted:I actually think it's totally in line with it. Matt's logic is that beating someone into a coma is okay, and someone dying in a fight that he starts is okay, as long as it's not murder. Any little tiny loophole for him to not be the bad guy. Why does Foggy not care then? I'm fine with Matt, or really any of the characters, not being affected by Nobu's death. But considering all the justified poo poo Foggy and at other points Rosario Dawson give him about his activities it should have been discussed. Especially when Foggy was super pissed right after finding an almost dead Daredevil who turned out to be his best buddy Matt.
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Jul 1, 2015 19:46
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Gyges posted:You can easily read the deflection as either intentional or not, there's nothing really pointing either way. It's just with all the other ricocheting and training Matt did with the sticks, it seems to me that it was intentional. Which 100% could just be my knowledge of the character from outside the show interacting with the scene. Do they even know? Like do they even know that Nobu existed in the first place?
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Jul 1, 2015 19:49
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Nobu's murder probably was going to be discussed but then Rosario Dawson couldn't come back because of filming other things. Remember she patched him up after the Nobu fight, but that was all off screen. She probably gave him a big lecture and Matt half-awake/half-passed out agreed that he was a very naughty boy.
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Jul 1, 2015 19:56
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But I mean like, Matt was essentially unconscious from when he stumbled back into his apt to when he and foggy started their giant fight. Foggy then asks him if he's ever killed anyone, and Matt says that's a line he hasn't crossed. Considering how "I'm blind... but I see a 'world on fire'" when over, I doubt he told Foggy off camera "I haven't murdered anyone, but sometimes when I fight people the get set on fire and burn to death." It's almost like fire = doesn't count in Matt's brain. Hopefully they are saving this debate for DD v. Punisher. it would be stupid to have the same argument about Nobu dying twice, and when the issue is wether Punisher is worse than Daredevil or not is the perfect time to do it.
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Jul 1, 2015 20:06
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Gyges posted:Why does Foggy not care then? I'm fine with Matt, or really any of the characters, not being affected by Nobu's death. But considering all the justified poo poo Foggy and at other points Rosario Dawson give him about his activities it should have been discussed. Especially when Foggy was super pissed right after finding an almost dead Daredevil who turned out to be his best buddy Matt. How would Foggy know? That doesn't make sense. Unless you're making the assumption that Matt told him exactly what happened in some offscreen conversation, because I don't remember him doing so onscreen.
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Jul 1, 2015 20:25
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I for one think the foot clan guy is still alive. He is a mystical ninja and if years of comics, cartoons and action movies have taught me anything it's that it takes more than simple fire to get rid of a mystical ninja. 
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Jul 1, 2015 20:44
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nelson posted:I for one think the foot clan guy is still alive. He is a mystical ninja and if years of comics, cartoons and action movies have taught me anything it's that it takes more than simple fire to get rid of a mystical ninja. yeah, I thought about doing a google search for "horribly burned marvel villain" but I was lazy. edit: AND we explicitly know that Fisk didn't have anyone dispose of the body, so...
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Jul 1, 2015 20:46
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Snak posted:yeah, I thought about doing a google search for "horribly burned marvel villain" but I was lazy. I decided to be unlazy and found this... http://www.writeups.org/fiche.php?id=2489 "A monster of deep, insatiable evil, he cannot be killed without radical measures - such as entirely burning the body." Okay so maybe not.
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Jul 1, 2015 21:03
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Burning_Monk posted:I decided to be unlazy and found this... http://www.writeups.org/fiche.php?id=2489 Yeah, but um, is it possible that Nobu was based on this guy? like as an easteregg? I didn't think Nobu was a character from the comics... he would obviously be permadead, if that was the case.
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Jul 1, 2015 21:05
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He's an allusion to a character in the comics. He founds a ninja clan called the Hand, whose hallmark is that they have methods for bringing people back from the dead.
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Jul 1, 2015 21:06
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zoux posted:He's an allusion to a character in the comics. He founds a ninja clan called the Hand, whose hallmark is that they have methods for bringing people back from the dead. He should have joined the stick clan.
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Jul 1, 2015 21:14
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| # ? Apr 23, 2024 11:14 |
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I think we're all forgetting a basic fact: Ninjas aren't people.
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Jul 1, 2015 22:47
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