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oldpainless
Oct 30, 2009

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I wish that Janeway had just said "Hey, Chinaman!" whenever she talked to Harry Kim.

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Mr. Merdle
Oct 17, 2007

THE GREAT MANBABY SUCCESSOR

oldpainless posted:

I wish that Janeway had just said "Hey, Chinaman!" whenever she talked to Harry Kim.

This thread just keeps on giving

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless
Just watched the Tuvix episode again.

drat lol idk I feel like Tuvix has a point and I feel like Janeway just ordered him murdered. I'm not sure if Picard or Sisko would have made that same decision. The doctor was the only one with the balls to at least tell Janeway he'd have nothing to do with it.

"Each of you is going to have to live with this, and I'm sorry for that. For you are all good, good people. My colleagues, my friends, I forgive you."

Freemason Rush Week
Apr 22, 2006

Janeway did nothing wrong

Freemason Rush Week
Apr 22, 2006

also lol @ all the goons that are so certain keeping Tuvix would work irl

"Hey Moridin920, your grandfather and your girlfriend love pillow got combined in some transporter accident. But you'll be fine if we just leave Grandpillow as is, right? It's cool, s/he can reminisce about old fishing trips while making awkward sexual advances towards you. That's just as good as having the two people you've spent your entire life caring about!"

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

Mr. Horrible posted:

also lol @ all the goons that are so certain keeping Tuvix would work irl

"Hey Moridin920, your grandfather and your girlfriend love pillow got combined in some transporter accident. But you'll be fine if we just leave Grandpillow as is, right? It's cool, s/he can reminisce about old fishing trips while making awkward sexual advances towards you. That's just as good as having the two people you've spent your entire life caring about!"

Well first off you're blowing it out of proportion a bit lol, Tuvix backed off when Kess told him to and only re-engaged after she did.

And second 'as good as having the other two' is meaningless. Yeah I'm sure you want them back but your personal feelings about it shouldn't really be part of the decision.

idk what you're talking about irl life lol this is Star Trek irl there wouldn't be a transporter accident to begin with. The nearest possible irl analogy I can think of is if a woman dies giving birth and the dad can somehow take the kid's DNA and clone his wife again but that will result in the infant's death and he does it anyway.

Gutcruncher
Apr 16, 2005

Go home and be a family man!
I forget, but did the episode end with Tuvok and Neelix telling Janeway that shes hosed up? It really should have, and then for the rest of the show they both have a better understanding of eachother, with Neelix toning the whole "lol Vulcan no smile lololol" and Tuvok on occasion paying a bit of lip service to the 'moral boosting' that Neelix likes to do.

Freemason Rush Week
Apr 22, 2006

Moridin920 posted:

The nearest possible irl analogy I can think of is if a woman dies giving birth and the dad can somehow take the kid's DNA and clone his wife again but that will result in the infant's death and he does it anyway.

if by 'clone' you mean 'the actual original person' and by 'wife' you mean 'two people, not one' and by 'dies giving birth' you mean 'raped and then forced to carry the baby to term before being vaporized' then sure

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless
idk I feel like Neelix and Tuvok died in a transporter accident and new life came out and you're now killing the new person to get back the other 2 because 'you like them more' and that's ethically dubious.

Freemason Rush Week
Apr 22, 2006

Gutcruncher posted:

I forget, but did the episode end with Tuvok and Neelix telling Janeway that shes hosed up? It really should have, and then for the rest of the show they both have a better understanding of eachother, with Neelix toning the whole "lol Vulcan no smile lololol" and Tuvok on occasion paying a bit of lip service to the 'moral boosting' that Neelix likes to do.

look inside your heart, you already know the answer

Huge Lady Pleaser
Jun 17, 2005

hello how r u doing im just looking for ppl 2 chill wit relax go out n have funn if ur looking for da same thing hit me up
Nap Ghost
I felt the same way about Tuvix. What's more is that the character of Tuvix was way more interesting than Neelix or tuvok separately. I felt it was yet another missed opportunity for the show.

Gutcruncher
Apr 16, 2005

Go home and be a family man!
Have Tuvix around for a few more episodes, have him save the day once or twice and make friends with everybody. Then finally the Doctor discovers a way to reverse the process. Now what will the Captain do?

Freemason Rush Week
Apr 22, 2006

Gutcruncher posted:

Have Tuvix around for a few more episodes, have him save the day once or twice and make friends with everybody. Then finally the Doctor discovers a way to reverse the process. Now what will the Captain do?

Hackers film 1995
Nov 4, 2009

Hack the planet!

bring back janeway's orig bram stoker's dracula hair

Figaro
Feb 21, 2006

Hi, I've come to apply for the doctor's job. I can assure you my credentials are top-notch, I've just graduated from Harvard College Yale. I aced every semester, and I got an 'A'.
You can sort of estimate how insane Janeway is likely to be by her hair length. She's relatively sane in the first three seasons with her sensible bun and then her pony tail thing. I'm not a fan of the massive coffered held together by force fields hairstyle of s5-7

Kitchner
Nov 9, 2012

IT CAN'T BE BARGAINED WITH.
IT CAN'T BE REASONED WITH.
IT DOESN'T FEEL PITY, OR REMORSE, OR FEAR.
AND IT ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT STOP, EVER, UNTIL YOU ADMIT YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT WARHAMMER
Clapping Larry

Gutcruncher posted:

Have Tuvix around for a few more episodes, have him save the day once or twice and make friends with everybody. Then finally the Doctor discovers a way to reverse the process. Now what will the Captain do?

Sacrifice him in order to raid the coffee nebula.

Yaos
Feb 22, 2003

She is a cat of significant gravy.

Gutcruncher posted:

I forget, but did the episode end with Tuvok and Neelix telling Janeway that shes hosed up? It really should have, and then for the rest of the show they both have a better understanding of eachother, with Neelix toning the whole "lol Vulcan no smile lololol" and Tuvok on occasion paying a bit of lip service to the 'moral boosting' that Neelix likes to do.

This is Star Trek, continuity doesn't last past the first commercial.

Eighties ZomCom
Sep 10, 2008




Archer did the exact same thing.

Who's more insane, Archer or Janeway?

Mr. Pumroy
May 20, 2001

archer would willingly stand by and watch the galaxy burn for the sake of his dog

counterfeitsaint
Feb 26, 2010

I'm a girl, and you're
gnomes, and it's like
what? Yikes.
I never understood why goons insist that one life in front of you is more important than two lives that aren't right in front of you? I always thought the point was there was no good choice, and no matter what you decide, someone ceases to exist.

Except of course that tuvix was actually an interesting character I guess, which does give him an edge.

Blistex
Oct 30, 2003

Macho Business
Donkey Wrestler

Gutcruncher posted:

I forget, but did the episode end with Tuvok and Neelix telling Janeway that shes hosed up? It really should have, and then for the rest of the show they both have a better understanding of eachother, with Neelix toning the whole "lol Vulcan no smile lololol" and Tuvok on occasion paying a bit of lip service to the 'moral boosting' that Neelix likes to do.

Freemason Rush Week
Apr 22, 2006

As much as I enjoy TNG, you know that if they had written it back then Picard's crew would have come up with some hand-wavy :techno: to explain how they could get the original two people back and keep Tuvix.

Then again transporters are hand-wavy bullshit all the way down. "But isn't that just vaporizing the person and creating a duplicate?" "Nope!" "How do you know?" "Reasons!"

Entropic
Feb 21, 2007

patriarchy sucks

Mr. Horrible posted:

As much as I enjoy TNG, you know that if they had written it back then Picard's crew would have come up with some hand-wavy :techno: to explain how they could get the original two people back and keep Tuvix.

And Tuvix would still never be seen or mentioned at any point after that episode.

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

counterfeitsaint posted:

I never understood why goons insist that one life in front of you is more important than two lives that aren't right in front of you? I always thought the point was there was no good choice, and no matter what you decide, someone ceases to exist.

Except of course that tuvix was actually an interesting character I guess, which does give him an edge.

Well yeah idk. It's like that ethical question of 'there's an out of control trolley coming down the tracks. It will kill 3 people. You can hit the switch to divert the train onto another track, but then it will kill another person. Hit the switch to kill 1 and save 3?'

There's no technically correct answer I think but most people say they wouldn't hit the switch because while that sucks for those 3, most people wouldn't want to actually make the decision of who lives and dies and wouldn't want to actually do the action of pulling the switch because they're 'interfering with the natural course of events' or whatever. The doctor obviously sees enough of an ethical issue to not want to 'hit the switch' as it were. He doesn't want to take responsibility in any way for a death or set of circumstances resulting in a death where otherwise there is no responsibility to assign.

Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Jul 2, 2015

happyhippy
Feb 21, 2005

Playing games, watching movies, owning goons. 'sup
Pillbug

Mr. Horrible posted:

Janeway did nothing wrong

Janeway did nothing but drink coffee and gently caress Paris.

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless
Just watched an episode where Janeway said 'gently caress it' to a Starfleet protocol to save them like 18 months. Tuvok is all "I'm surprised at you" and she goes "we're a long way from Starfleet Tuvok."

The whole premise of the show is that on a Starfleet principle they are taking the long way home instead of using the array.

happyhippy
Feb 21, 2005

Playing games, watching movies, owning goons. 'sup
Pillbug

counterfeitsaint posted:

I never understood why goons insist that one life in front of you is more important than two lives that aren't right in front of you? I always thought the point was there was no good choice, and no matter what you decide, someone ceases to exist.

Except of course that tuvix was actually an interesting character I guess, which does give him an edge.

76 years with a wise cracking Vulcan with a Talaxian sense of humor.
I would be loving teleporting myself into a borg cube by day 2.

That episode is a good example of group hatred.

Kitchner
Nov 9, 2012

IT CAN'T BE BARGAINED WITH.
IT CAN'T BE REASONED WITH.
IT DOESN'T FEEL PITY, OR REMORSE, OR FEAR.
AND IT ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT STOP, EVER, UNTIL YOU ADMIT YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT WARHAMMER
Clapping Larry

Mr. Horrible posted:


Then again transporters are hand-wavy bullshit all the way down. "But isn't that just vaporizing the person and creating a duplicate?" "Nope!" "How do you know?" "Reasons!"

No they admit that's what it does. It literally disintegrates you, stores you as data, transfer the data, and then remakes you on the other side.

In Enterprise they talk about this a lot because it's a big fear.

Now if I kill you and then create an exact duplicate of you on the other side of the world with all the memories of you apart from your death and tell your clone I teleported you, would he disagree? No, because he distinctly remembers being in one place and now he's in another

WorldsStongestNerd
Apr 28, 2010

by Fluffdaddy
Jesus people the tuvix thing is easy. We believe that A. Lives have value, and B. That people are equal. Therefore two lives are more valuable than one.

WorldsStongestNerd fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Jul 2, 2015

Why cookie Rocket
Dec 2, 2003

Lemme tell ya 'bout your blood bamboo kid.
It ain't Coca-Cola, it's rice.

I was really in the mood for new trek on the weekend and I decided to give Voyager an honest chance, from episode 1. I made it to episode three before they hit the reset switch so loving hard that I'm done with that awful show. Lol nope, no story here after all, thanks for the 42 minutes rear end in a top hat!

Kitchner posted:

Now if I kill you and then create an exact duplicate of you on the other side of the world with all the memories of you apart from your death and tell your clone I teleported you, would he disagree? No, because he distinctly remembers being in one place and now he's in another

Yeah hey guess what whether you're Caesar or an infant that dies of SIDS or a guy stepping into a transporter your consciousness is completely obliterated upon death and you might as well have never lived (from your POV) so truly who gives a gently caress. Alternately, what's the difference (from a consciousness POV) between using the transporter and going to sleep every night?

Eighties ZomCom
Sep 10, 2008




Mr. Horrible posted:

As much as I enjoy TNG, you know that if they had written it back then Picard's crew would have come up with some hand-wavy :techno: to explain how they could get the original two people back and keep Tuvix.

Then again transporters are hand-wavy bullshit all the way down. "But isn't that just vaporizing the person and creating a duplicate?" "Nope!" "How do you know?" "Reasons!"

They probably would have tried to recreate the same circumstances that led to the Riker clone. If they remembered of course.

Kitchner posted:

No they admit that's what it does. It literally disintegrates you, stores you as data, transfer the data, and then remakes you on the other side.

In Enterprise they talk about this a lot because it's a big fear.

Now if I kill you and then create an exact duplicate of you on the other side of the world with all the memories of you apart from your death and tell your clone I teleported you, would he disagree? No, because he distinctly remembers being in one place and now he's in another

Except they handwave that away in a couple of episodes by claiming you can feel being in two places at once. There was also that episode where they stick Barclay in the transporter for extended periods to talk to some lifeforms or something.

fuck off Batman
Oct 14, 2013

Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah!


WorldsStrongestNerd posted:

Jesus people the tuvix thing is easy. We believe that A. Lives have value, and B. That people are equal. Therefore two lives are more valuable than one.

Yeah, but one of those two lives is Neelix..

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless
All know is you're never loving getting me into one of those things.

Call me up a shuttle assholes.

WorldsStrongestNerd posted:

Jesus people the tuvix thing is easy. We believe that A. Lives have value, and B. That people are equal. Therefore two lives are more valuable than one.

Okay but utilitarianism isn't the end all be all correct answer of ethics. In a strictly simple utilitarian sense yeah you're right but there's tons of other considerations.

It's the trolley problem, pretty much. An ethical question that has been debated for decades with many differing viewpoints, none of which are necessarily the right or wrong one.

A lot of people would pull the switch that kills 1 person to save more than one, but at the same time many people would not push someone into the trolley's path (derailing the trolley, hypothetically) to save more than one even though technically/morally it is the same action. What's your opinion on that?

Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Jul 2, 2015

Ralp
Aug 19, 2004

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Is there a Mirror Universe Thomas Riker????????? :wtc:

happyhippy
Feb 21, 2005

Playing games, watching movies, owning goons. 'sup
Pillbug

Ralp posted:

Is there a Mirror Universe Thomas Riker????????? :wtc:

Nope, as he was created in a Federation accident, and there was no federation at the time in the mirror universe.

Yaos
Feb 22, 2003

She is a cat of significant gravy.

WorldsStrongestNerd posted:

Jesus people the tuvix thing is easy. We believe that A. Lives have value, and B. That people are equal. Therefore two lives are more valuable than one.

There are two Something Awful posters that each need a kidney. It turns out Obama is a match for them and also they are both his long lost sons from an affair with Nancy Grace. Do we take Obama's kidneys and give them to the Something Awful posters?

happyhippy posted:

Nope, as he was created in a Federation accident, and there was no federation at the time in the mirror universe.
TNG writers would not give a poo poo.

Yaos fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Jul 2, 2015

Ralp
Aug 19, 2004

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Maybe in the Mirror Universe he was created when the Terran Empire was doing evil torture crimes on that same planet.

Volcott
Mar 30, 2010

People paying American dollars to let other people know they didn't agree with someone's position on something is the lifeblood of these forums.

Ralp posted:

Maybe in the Mirror Universe he was created when the Terran Empire was doing evil torture crimes on that same planet.

Ralp, no. Why are you in the star trek thread.

This is not a good place.

Ralp
Aug 19, 2004

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
I don't think the Mirror Universe makes sense as just a divergent timeline. It seems like a defining property is that all the same people are born there and somehow end up in the same general places and associate with the same people, just all with dispositions and through circumstances that are completely different from the uh non-mirror universe. So maybe this parallel applies to transporter accidents too, in which case: Mirror Thomas Riker... and hell, Mirror Tuvix

Volcott posted:

Ralp, no. Why are you in the star trek thread.

This is not a good place.

it's way better than most GBS threads.

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Kitchner
Nov 9, 2012

IT CAN'T BE BARGAINED WITH.
IT CAN'T BE REASONED WITH.
IT DOESN'T FEEL PITY, OR REMORSE, OR FEAR.
AND IT ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT STOP, EVER, UNTIL YOU ADMIT YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT WARHAMMER
Clapping Larry

EvilTaytoMan posted:


Except they handwave that away in a couple of episodes by claiming you can feel being in two places at once. There was also that episode where they stick Barclay in the transporter for extended periods to talk to some lifeforms or something.

Let's say I kill you and grow a clone of you on the other side of the world and the clone remembers everything up until your death. Let's also say the clone "remembers" being in two places at once.

He's obviously going to insist he could feel being in two places at once. They do this a bunch of times as the writers aren't creative where someone has the memory of the even in their head but the event never happened (like clone bomb o'brien thinks he's the real o'brien).

So basically it could literally be a genetically identical clone with identical memories rather than moving you, but no one could tell, not even your clone who would insist that they are you.

Tbh the teleworkers is like the most bad rear end weapon ever and they never kill anyone with it.

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