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curious lump posted:If you wanted to go defense with a shield, you can just shift so that your left foot (and thus your off hand) is forward, which makes it easier (?) to defend, and keeps your weapon in your main hand. That's... pretty much standard shield fighting, yes. Shields are for hiding behind, not throwing out dramatically behind you. Was this somehow in doubt? I mean, the whole point of a shield is that you have an object to block your opponent's lines of attack and lines of sight. I suppose the rapier-and-buckler set sometimes fence sword forward and mostly use the shield to stop simultaneous hits when they strike. Rodrigo Diaz posted:This is correct. I.33 shows striking with the buckler, and Stephen Hand has shown a pretty good interpretation of attacking with a centre-gripped shield, some of which probably translates over into the flatter kite shapes and other strapped forms. You can punch with a center grip shield, and bosses are good for that, but using the edges to foul your opponent's strikes is better. I fought most of my time in the SCA with an 18" center grip round shield, and it served quite well despite being a 6'5" large guy. http://www.bellatrix.org/school/section05.htm There's a few examples of the 'classic' Bellatrix shield form from the SCA. Not historical, but effective practical technique if limited by the rules of the SCA's game. The annoying bit is that, at least when I last researched it some years ago, the paper trail on historical European weapons use doesn't really pick up until the 14th century, when larger shields were falling out of fashion, and mostly only covers sword and target.
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Jul 10, 2015 10:50
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Liquid Communism posted:I suppose the rapier-and-buckler set sometimes fence sword forward and mostly use the shield to stop simultaneous hits when they strike. In my experience it's less sometimes and more that I can't think of a rapier manual offhand that wants the fencer to stand buckler foot forward as a standard thing. At least in my experience the buckler's used to support what the sword is doing, yeah. (Even in the not-remotely-historic parts of SCA rapier.  )Though now that I've said that, I know that Manciolino has some buckler foot forward guards, but those don't read to me as "shield side forward, super defensive" because tiny buckler. quote:There's a few examples of the 'classic' Bellatrix shield form from the SCA. Not historical, but effective practical technique if limited by the rules of the SCA's game. The annoying bit is that, at least when I last researched it some years ago, the paper trail on historical European weapons use doesn't really pick up until the 14th century, when larger shields were falling out of fashion, and mostly only covers sword and target. A friend of mine is starting to look into some of the Spanish manuals, specifically for the larger rotella stuff. I have no idea what's in there, and it's certainly much later than what I'd guess you're into, but it might be something, anyway? Edit: spelling is hard
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Jul 10, 2015 17:19
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So this is a question that probably goes more towards the historical end, but of course all perspectives are welcome. In many movies or novels that feature swordfighting, there's often that moment where one combatant will step close, do some twirly thing with his sword, and suddenly his opponent's weapon goes flying. Now, I've wondered whether that has any basis in reality. Are there any treatises or schools that feature techniques specifically focused on disarming the opponent? If so, how common and effective are those, would they be a reasonable choice in any given fight or only something very situational?
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Jul 11, 2015 19:06
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zuwh3j314U In kendo, it's situational. It requires an opponent that has soft hands (or relaxes at that moment). Way back, when I did foil (still a beginner), I was drilling with our main instructor and he kept telling me to grip the foil properly. He told me 3 times and then sent my foil flying across the room.
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Jul 11, 2015 21:07
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It isn't too common in the sport, but if if you knock the blade out of the other guy's hand and hit him in a continuous movement, you get the point. There are certain binds which can make the other person drop their weapon if you have a good angle, and a good beat can do it too. In the historical side, since grappling is a thing, there are lots of moves that end with you taking the other guy's weapon. They were discouraged when I did rapier sparring, though, since they could easily end with you breaking the other person's finger on the ricasso. ScratchAndSniff fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Jul 11, 2015 |
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Jul 11, 2015 21:17
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Perestroika posted:So this is a question that probably goes more towards the historical end, but of course all perspectives are welcome. In many movies or novels that feature swordfighting, there's often that moment where one combatant will step close, do some twirly thing with his sword, and suddenly his opponent's weapon goes flying. Now, I've wondered whether that has any basis in reality. Are there any treatises or schools that feature techniques specifically focused on disarming the opponent? If so, how common and effective are those, would they be a reasonable choice in any given fight or only something very situational? It's very difficult against anyone with a decent grip, but disarming someone from a bind is doable.
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Jul 12, 2015 06:32
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Liquid Communism posted:It's very difficult against anyone with a decent grip, but disarming someone from a bind is doable. After I practice the basics, they usually throw in one of these, where you are in a bind, let go of the pommel and reach through to grab it again and throw the other guy. But from watching the big kids spar, things go way to fast for that fancy stuff.
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Jul 12, 2015 09:10
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thewireguy posted:After I practice the basics, they usually throw in one of these, where you are in a bind, let go of the pommel and reach through to grab it again and throw the other guy. But from watching the big kids spar, things go way to fast for that fancy stuff. In the context of fencing however: why would you (normally) do that? Nektu fucked around with this message at 10:45 on Jul 12, 2015 |
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Jul 12, 2015 10:15
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Nektu posted:Throws/joint locks and so on are opportunistic (up to a point) in every martial art. poo poo does indeed happen though and you may find yourself in the posiiton to apply one. And if you are good at it, you can absolutely encourage the issue by closing the distance and bringing yourself in a situation where an opportunity will probably arise. gently caress if I know. I did judo, so I really want to rassle, but those dudes are too quick. Nobody holds a bind for any length of time. Somebody else answer his question, I am interested.
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Jul 12, 2015 11:38
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It's never intentional, but I have disarmed people and been disarmed myself in foil and sabre. But it's usually because someone is extremely tired and can barely hold their weapon anymore. As for stepping in and doing some kind of grapple thing, my guess is it's either because they know they won't win by trying to stab/slash you, or a really unintuitive way of trying to encourage you to stay further away. If it's the former, then it's the whole debate about sport vs learning a martial art vs kill the other guy by any means possible. If it's the latter, then that's a kind of cruel and crappy way of trying to teach you to maintain distance... It'd be much healthier to just pause the bout and tell you that you've drifted too close.
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Jul 12, 2015 12:17
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Unlike steel blunts, sharp swords actually stick together if they meet edge-to-edge, kinda like you see in Star Wars. You can try this out if you have a pair of sharp knives at home. If the swords bind like this, you can't just pull back and strike again ("'Katapultfechten" is my favourite new word) because you'll get stabbed in the face the moment you give up the pressure, so you have to figure out another solution. Fiore solves it by moving in to grapple, Liechtenauer by winding. Our teacher thinks it's because Italians and Germans used swords of different length: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlLa6VnNRaI
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Jul 12, 2015 12:18
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Is it okay to kick? I know I should be asking the people I practice with. And know you are opening yourself up... I think I have too much kung fu poo poo in my head, but seriously, if grappling is okay then is it a free for all? I asked the elder student about trips/Footsweeps and he said it okay, but most likely not the best move. At sword distance it is stupid, but I don't know the rules. These guys are going to Baltimore for a national competition. I have a ton of dumb questions waiting to be beat out of me.
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Jul 12, 2015 14:25
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thewireguy posted:Is it okay to kick? I know I should be asking the people I practice with. And know you are opening yourself up... I think I have too much kung fu poo poo in my head, but seriously, if grappling is okay then is it a free for all? I asked the elder student about trips/Footsweeps and he said it okay, but most likely not the best move. At sword distance it is stupid, but I don't know the rules. These guys are going to Baltimore for a national competition. I have a ton of dumb questions waiting to be beat out of me.  And if you wrestle, why not trip someone? In the end its a rule question and a question about safe training (falling onto your sword hurts). Nektu fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Jul 12, 2015 |
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Jul 12, 2015 15:00
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I have no desire to compete. I am just a big need trying to get back into shape. Somebody gave me a slightly hard time about wanting to flail away like an idiot because I was angry, but I actually got to do that yesterday, and defend against that. It was pretty fun, one guy with his back against the wall defending, and the other guy attacking. I got the elder student twice, but could tell he had me counterattacking dozens of times of he wanted.
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Jul 12, 2015 15:07
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Siivola posted:Our teacher thinks it's because Italians and Germans used swords of different length:
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Jul 12, 2015 19:05
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This is off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure I.33 is all about using your sword and buckler together to create binds and then sort of wind your way into victory, while German messer sources use the free hand to grapple.
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Jul 12, 2015 19:18
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A lot of winding in the Lecküchner messer I've been doing lately
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Jul 12, 2015 20:16
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Yeah well Leküchner's got everything anyway. Two books of 200 plays each on nothing but the messer. All the bindings and windings and grapplings you'll ever need, and a whole bunch you'll never need too. But you're absolutely right. I entirely forgot that even with the messer, winding is 100% a thing.
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Jul 12, 2015 23:02
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Perestroika posted:So this is a question that probably goes more towards the historical end, but of course all perspectives are welcome. In many movies or novels that feature swordfighting, there's often that moment where one combatant will step close, do some twirly thing with his sword, and suddenly his opponent's weapon goes flying. Now, I've wondered whether that has any basis in reality. Are there any treatises or schools that feature techniques specifically focused on disarming the opponent? If so, how common and effective are those, would they be a reasonable choice in any given fight or only something very situational? I've taken a couple introductory classes in Destreza - Spanish rapier combat - and according to the instructor, they were absolutely included in the system. It wasn't like a kind of twirly bit with your sword - more getting your hip against the blade, grabbing the ricasso, and twisting your body to lever it out of your opponent's grip. If they don't let go, you might break their fingers, though. As he explained it to us, the Spanish manuals had a heavy ethical underpinning, and being able to have the option to win a fight without killing your opponent was a big deal. He also noted that at least one author put it in the practical sense of, "If you end up in a duel with the Duke's son, being able to win (and preserve your honor) but not kill him (which would probably get you massively screwed over anyway) is a good thing."
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Jul 13, 2015 20:17
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My understanding of Destreza is that it was developed in large part because the Spaniards thought the all-in suicidal lunges of the Italian school were batshit retarded, so that makes sense. Despite being a martial activity, fencing was always more about how to fight than how to kill, and by the time Destreza came along it was more about how to win than how to fight. tirinal fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Jul 13, 2015 |
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Jul 13, 2015 20:24
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Liquid Communism posted:That's... pretty much standard shield fighting, yes. Shields are for hiding behind, not throwing out dramatically behind you. It was a response to thewireguy but I misread what he said, so it ended up being irrelevent,
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Jul 14, 2015 04:22
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Haha, as these guys are training to compete, I am willing to have them beat up on me. Maybe I will learn something.  I think I played too much d&d as a kid. I have the art of comat and a plastic sword in order.
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Jul 14, 2015 04:37
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Being competitive doesn't necessarily mean being a douchebag, though. I think a bunch of pages back someone (siivola?) posted a pretty good blog about how just curbstomping newbies is a terrible way to teach. http://guywindsor.net/blog/2014/09/is-syrio-forel-from-game-of-thrones-the-worst-fictional-fencing-master-ever/ It's a good read if you missed it earlier.
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Jul 14, 2015 06:42
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We're getting custom dark green spes jackets made for HEMA Ireland awh yiss
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Jul 14, 2015 15:00
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Rabhadh posted:We're getting custom dark green spes jackets made for HEMA Ireland awh yiss Nice. I want to get a custom SPES jacket eventually, but I gotta actually get in shape so I can figure out my proper fit.
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Jul 15, 2015 13:22
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykUJP78YYQc Here's a video by Roland of Dimicator showing sparring without protection using sharp swords, and sparring with some protection using blunt swords. The fights start around 8 minutes in.
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Jul 20, 2015 13:27
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The competitive scene would be so different if blunt swords would bind properly
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Jul 20, 2015 13:30
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Verisimilidude posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykUJP78YYQc  Seems like an odd reason to risk your life and limbs if you ask me. I can see why you would want to use sharps to practice winding and whatnot, but why not invest in a full suit of armor at that point? No idea how much it would cost, but a few thousand is a small price to pay for safety IMHO. I wonder how much that place pays for insurance... Edit: Completely unrelated, but are there any good books on dussack? Everything I see out there seems to use the focus more on messer, but I am more curious how the old "2 guys with clubs, first one to bash the other's face into pulp wins" proto-fencing worked. ScratchAndSniff fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jul 20, 2015 |
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Jul 20, 2015 18:44
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ScratchAndSniff posted:Edit: Completely unrelated, but are there any good books on dussack? Everything I see out there seems to use the focus more on messer, but I am more curious how the old "2 guys with clubs, first one to bash the other's face into pulp wins" proto-fencing worked. Amazon Link And afaik dussaks were used as messer-like training instruments for injury-free citizen sports fencing. Thats probably the reason that you mostly find messer stuff. Nektu fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Jul 20, 2015 |
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Jul 20, 2015 20:39
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Dussack (known in Norway as "tessak") was also a type of backsword popular around Northern and Eastern Europe around Meyer's time. Meyer's book is probably the most approachable source, but it should be noted he uses the dussack as a training tool for proper swords (including the messer), not just for sport fencing. If you want the latter, you should look into British singlestick, where you indeed lost if you received a bleeding wound on the head, or French la canne. Edit: Here's a neat 19th century article on the singlestick. It's so endearinly British.  quote:If any one tells me that my views of amusement are barbaric or brutal, that no reasonable man ever wants to hurt any one else or to risk his own precious carcass, I accept the charge of brutality, merely remarking that it was the national love of hard knocks which made this little island famous, and I for one do not wish to be thought any better than the old folk of England's fighting days. Siivola fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Jul 20, 2015 |
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Jul 20, 2015 20:59
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ScratchAndSniff posted:
Here's a good article about why you should sometimes practice with sharp swords. https://chivalricfighting.wordpress.com/2014/02/18/why-you-should-train-with-sharp-swords-and-how-to-go-about-it-without-killing-anyone/
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Jul 20, 2015 22:12
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Verisimilidude posted:Here's a good article about why you should sometimes practice with sharp swords. https://chivalricfighting.wordpress.com/2014/02/18/why-you-should-train-with-sharp-swords-and-how-to-go-about-it-without-killing-anyone,/ Yeah, there's is no way I can argue with this. It's just so bizarre. I read that, and I've no doubt Windsor knows what he is talking about, but his conclusions and assumptions are just so foreign to me that I wouldn't know where to begin describing where I disagree. I guess I just disagree that the risk (serious injury to myself or partner due to either one of us brain farting) is worth the reward (learning to sword right). Different strokes, I guess. If anyone understands that risk and wants to take it then good for them. Also, stuff about singlestick/cane fighting is everywhere. I want to learn about the sporting side of dussack. I'll check out that book, but I'm really interested in more analysis than just a translation. edit: me speels gudder ScratchAndSniff fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Jul 21, 2015 |
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Jul 21, 2015 00:44
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Verisimilidude posted:Here's a good article about why you should sometimes practice with sharp swords. https://chivalricfighting.wordpress.com/2014/02/18/why-you-should-train-with-sharp-swords-and-how-to-go-about-it-without-killing-anyone/ Except the reference to David Lowry is that he's commenting on iai practice (solo kata) and I have never heard of anyone using sharp swords for paired practice in JSA. It's simply too dangerous or you have to compromise too much to keep it safe, which is kinda perfectly illustrated in the earlier video.
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Jul 21, 2015 02:06
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ImplicitAssembler posted:Except the reference to David Lowry is that he's commenting on iai practice (solo kata) and I have never heard of anyone using sharp swords for paired practice in JSA. Discussing it with my classmates and teacher, the conclusion they've come to is: sparring with sharps is good; sparring without sharps is also good. Saying you should never do one or the other is bad; saying one is inherently better than the other is also bad.
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Jul 21, 2015 04:16
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I have never, ever, ever sparred with anyone I would trust enough to spar with sharps against. Or who I hated enough to wish a manslaughter rap on if I failed to block a cut.
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Jul 21, 2015 05:47
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Liquid Communism posted:I have never, ever, ever sparred with anyone I would trust enough to spar with sharps against. The first is understandable, but if you're lacking candidates for the second then you really need to spend more time in the world.
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Jul 21, 2015 07:36
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Sharps tried to autocorrect to disastrous, I think my phone is trying to tell you something. If you want to instill that fear of getting grazed or hit into yourself, just fence sabre without priority, allow one single hit only, and the loser buys beers for the winner.
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Jul 21, 2015 09:38
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Isn't that just epee without toe hits?
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Jul 21, 2015 10:53
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ScratchAndSniff posted:It's just so bizarre. I read that, and I've no doubt Windsor knows what he is talking about, but his conclusions and assumptions are just so foreign to me that I wouldn't know where to begin describing where I disagree.
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Jul 21, 2015 11:00
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Siivola posted:Isn't that just epee without toe hits? Bottom line as far as I'm concerned is that fencing with sharps is horrifically dangerous and please don't do it.
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Jul 21, 2015 12:31
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