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paradoxGentleman posted:Yeah, it's kind of hard for me to understand because I am not familiar with what exactly they are talking about here (the only thing I get is that Appelcline apparently made some sort of history of something called OSR and didn't add the contributions of certain persons) but my impression is that the guy just wanted to get some perspective from different sources. Appelcline wrote a book called Designers and Dragons which is a history of the RPG industry. The OSR is a very loose movement of people who are talking about and cloning pre-3.x D&D editions, writing new adventures, sourcebooks and such for them and also making new games, usually with a skeleton of an older D&D edition although other games have been starting to peek in. For example there's a guy working on a clone of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, there's a new edition of an old Star Trek-ish game called Starships & Spacemen, one of the clone companies, Goblinoid Games bought the IP of an old non-D&D publisher called Pacesetter Games and are making new editions of their games, Kevin Crawford's work, etc. It's a really hard thing to sum up because basically it's a bunch of small companies, dudes with blogs, people who talk on forums and almost none of them agree about anything. Some of them are virulently reactionary conservative types or just jerks, some of them aren't. Some of them do stuff that can be considered OSR but don't call themselves that. I consider myself to be aligned with a lot of the same interests as the OSR but I feel uncomfortable claiming to be totally part of it because of theRPGSite side of it. Anyway, Jez Gordon feels slighted I believe because there's a new index which covers more recent events in RPGs among other things and Appelcline didn't really talk about the OSR that much. The index is way more casual than the main book, however. Also from what I see of Appelcline's recent posting on RPG.net that may partially be because he isn't really that knowledgeable about the topic. Looks like he's planning an article about it and is in the research phase, though. Zak is talking about ancient grogs.txt events that I'm only partially aware of, someone else can explain it to you better. I'm specifically talking about Gordon when I say that simply mentioning someone isn't harassment btw. Then again I don't know who Gordon is so maybe his followers have a history of taking aimed criticism as a call to arms? Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 12:16 on Jul 16, 2015 |
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Jul 16, 2015 11:44
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paradoxGentleman posted:Zak's danger and effect on game communities isn't quite as obvious as you make it out to be. His effect is actually easier to see when you've got him blocked. I saw a G+ thread the other night about how useful (or not) online game design discussion can be. I can't see what he posted, but I can tell that he first popped up about 14 comments in and most of the rest of the 156 comments are people arguing in circles with him.
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Jul 16, 2015 11:55
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It's entirely possible that I've become cynical about these sort of things, but that whiny OSR post contains all the hallmarks of a harassment call-to-arms. They dropped the name of the target and then rattled off the names of people they felt he'd slighted, at least one of whom is a well-known harasser. So you'll have to pardon me if I don't believe this was some friendly attempt to start a dialogue. A better question is much shorter and less combative: "Hey, why is the OSR section in Designers and Dragons so small?" That's basically the question that Appelcline answered, which is pretty drat classy of him.
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Jul 16, 2015 12:08
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I'm not going to guess anymore whether the original question to Appelcline had some sort of ulterior motive or not, but those G+ comments are absolutely coming from grogs with an axe to grind. And this Jez Gordon person isn't doing himself any favors when Zak S says:quote:Try asking Shannon if, in his "future writing"about LotFP, he'll rely on what historians call primary sources or, as he did in his earlier writing, rely on people from his forum with personal grudges against people who work there. And he just comes back with a "will do" On the other hand, it's also amusing seeing Zak's impotent rage at having to channel his "questions" through other people because he knows he's either blocked or going to be ignored. quote:I'd forgotten what this book was about and googled it.
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Jul 16, 2015 12:10
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No disagreement that Gordon's initial question is poorly phrased and accusatory. I just can't make the jump to declaring it outright harassment.
Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Jul 16, 2015 |
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Jul 16, 2015 12:12
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paradoxGentleman posted:What is he talking about exactly? I don't remember the exact specifics and couldn't dig up the original tinder for the flames, but basically some bullshit went down involving MRA extraordinaire James Desborough. He had recently released one of his poo poo games or maybe an awful blog post, and some lady got riled up about it. Then some of D's fans sent her rape threats. Someone else made a since-deleted (I believe) G+ post that got a lot of +1's (many just to spite him and Zak, who took up his banner), that either (incorrectly) accused D of making the threats, but possibly just due to poor wording, or just (correctly) accused him of weaponizing his fans' rape threats to silence someone. This is also about the time Zak started parading around his enemies lists as if that's a healthy thing to do.  How understanding of him. Regardless, even after clarification/correction which happened long ago and only needed to involve a handful of people at most, "RPGnet's agents provocateur lied about James Desborough threatening to rape someone" has been the refrain, even though what actually happened was "many people, some of whom are RPGnet mods, agree that Desborough is a creepy gently caress." If you even glanced in the direction of a computer when this was going on, and then later have some ungodly reason to talk to these people, you'd better be prepared for an impenetrable wall of "have you More simply, it boils down to lots of people being accused of censorship for saying "No thank you" to rape fantasies and/or insufferable motherfuckers.
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Jul 16, 2015 12:12
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Wait, I think I heard about the game made by James D that you are talking about. It was that one card game about Gamergate, wasn't it?
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Jul 16, 2015 12:26
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paradoxGentleman posted:Wait, I think I heard about the game made by James D that you are talking about. It was that one card game about Gamergate, wasn't it? Nah, I'm pretty sure both his lovely card games came later. In GamerGate's case, it was much later; this was all more than a couple of years ago. Anyway, that's all  grog. How about some  grog?quote:I understand the word "neckbeard" can be quite controversial. As such, I'm not looking to cause any offense to anyone. quote:
 quote:Just for the record, I am not being derogatory. I am solely questioning the actual facial hair itself and why its prevalent in this hobby. quote:I understand what you're getting it. "Hipsters" have "neckbeards" as well, but they are clean and trimmed. You don't see bits of cheerios stuck in them. 
That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 12:37 on Jul 16, 2015 |
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Jul 16, 2015 12:34
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paradoxGentleman posted:Wait, I think I heard about the game made by James D that you are talking about. It was that one card game about Gamergate, wasn't it? Yes. I understand where Gordon is coming from, really I do, but it's something like bristling at the Top 40s radio station not playing songs by your favorite postmetal or thrashcore bands. It's like when I was 13 and was mad at my mom because she called Blind Guardian "noise". I love DCC and will talk it up every chance I get and while I sometimes find the sheer dominance of 5e and Pathfinder to be annoying because it makes it harder to find players for the games I like, actively getting mad about it is like being angry at the sky for not being a bright shade of red. Being petulant isn't going to help the situation one bit. Also I dunno how someone can look at Appelcline's articles at Wizards and accuse him of being hostile towards old school D&D. Maybe it's because he mentions the scourge that is known as Dragonlance!? Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 12:41 on Jul 16, 2015 |
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Jul 16, 2015 12:35
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When the hill you've chosen to die on is "the historical significance of the OSR," you'll drat well fight at every opportunity.
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Jul 16, 2015 14:15
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The OSR is made of babies with a martyr complex who smell their own farts and constantly look for proof that their ~*~Glorious Revolution~*~ is being slighted, most likely spending more time doing that then actually playing their lovely games. Zak S is a literal psychopath who should be ignored and dismissed at any given chance. That's everything you need to know about them, and everything that should've gone into that book.Kai Tave posted:I'm just imagining a GM gradually getting increasingly frustrated as all his plans are repeatedly foiled by a jumping centaur and it's pretty great. Just this super-excited centaur bouncing all over the place while the GM gets red in the face, crumpling up yet another set of notes that took him hours to write, all because of that cursed +35 to Jump checks, you like centaurs huh, well I'LL SHOW YOU What I find funny/sad is the druid one actually. "I have a character who loves to play as druids and always makes one. So I banned them." It's not even petty, it's just flat out "no gently caress you, stop having fun." Of course, both druid AND jump boil down to the DM and probably the group being real salty over a player actually enjoying themselves, so there you go. ProfessorCirno fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Jul 16, 2015 |
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Jul 16, 2015 16:02
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I was unaware that Tarzan was apparently an archetype for druids. I think Tarzan would be more of a ranger.
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Jul 16, 2015 16:06
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Lightning Lord posted:
It really isn't any more complex than Appelcline being the boss of rpg.net, which is staffed by Known Goons, who all want to destroy real roleplaying. It doesn't get deeper than that.
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Jul 16, 2015 16:10
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I'll never stop being amazed that I've somehow made it onto Zak S' sworn enemies list for the high crime of moderating an internet message board for tabletop roleplaying games. I only wish I could have that much of a lasting impact on someone's life whenever I actually try to.
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Jul 16, 2015 17:44
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Kai Tave posted:I'm just imagining a GM gradually getting increasingly frustrated as all his plans are repeatedly foiled by a jumping centaur and it's pretty great. Just this super-excited centaur bouncing all over the place while the GM gets red in the face, crumpling up yet another set of notes that took him hours to write, all because of that cursed +35 to Jump checks, you like centaurs huh, well I'LL SHOW YOU Technically speaking, warblades from Bo9S can access that one specific move to make a jump check, then a standard attack, then save against instant death as a level 9
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Jul 16, 2015 18:03
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Yeah, to be the least bit charitable, a Warblade invested heavily in the Tiger Claw discipline wants to have a really high Jump skill because some of their best Maneuvers need you to make Jump checks, including ones where the Jump DC is the target's AC, to simulate the Warblade jumping over the target to smash them in the face or something. Which makes it even cooler consider it's a centaur that's supposedly doing that.
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Jul 16, 2015 18:11
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If a horse-person straight leaping 13 feet into the air to smash some dude's face in is wrong then I don't want to be right.
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Jul 16, 2015 18:19
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Speleothing posted:Technically speaking, warblades from Bo9S can access that one specific move to make a jump check, then a standard attack, then save against instant death as a level 9 although I like the image of the excited, bouncing centaurs better
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Jul 16, 2015 18:22
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Serf posted:I was unaware that Tarzan was apparently an archetype for druids. I think Tarzan would be more of a ranger. Really? I would have pinned his as a barbarian.
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Jul 16, 2015 18:50
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Tarzan is a muscle wizard.
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Jul 16, 2015 18:54
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paradoxGentleman posted:Really? I would have pinned his as a barbarian. I could see that too. I just remember him doing stuff like talking with animals and picking up new languages really quickly, which seem like magical effects (not that barbarians shouldn't get some magic too).
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Jul 16, 2015 18:54
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inklesspen posted:Tarzan is a muscle wizard. He's a master of rope trick.
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Jul 16, 2015 18:57
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Serf posted:I could see that too. I just remember him doing stuff like talking with animals and picking up new languages really quickly, which seem like magical effects (not that barbarians shouldn't get some magic too).
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Jul 16, 2015 19:04
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ProfessorCirno posted:The OSR is made of babies with a martyr complex who smell their own farts and constantly look for proof that their ~*~Glorious Revolution~*~ is being slighted, most likely spending more time doing that then actually playing their lovely games. Zak S is a literal psychopath who should be ignored and dismissed at any given chance. That's everything you need to know about them, and everything that should've gone into that book. While I think you're painting with way too broad a brush, it's due to personal reasons since I like old farty editions of The World's Best-Selling Fantasy Game And Games Meant to Play Like Them™. I guess in the end I don't care what people think of dudes with blogs called "The Butt Lands" where they pontificate about what brand of grape jelly was Gary Gygax's favorite and how the scourge of not being a bigot is ruining gaming as long as people don't come away with the impression that everyone playing old D&D, blogging, or making games and adventures in that context is like that. Or I'd be poo poo out of luck.
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Jul 16, 2015 19:39
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Hate to tell you this, but the OSR blog community is way too accepting of that poo poo. Like, sure, maybe they're not all Zak S but they sure as poo poo ain't doing anything to try and distance themselves. You may in be SOL there.
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Jul 16, 2015 19:42
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I mean with like 2 exceptions all I ever hear about OSR people is how they're grodnardy conservatives who are just full of bile. This includes both secondhand accounts and the occasional blog post that I force myself to read. I'm not really interested in looking any further, either. It's not worth the time.
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Jul 16, 2015 19:50
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Nihilarian posted:It's more than just a level 9 maneuver, the Tiger Claw school has a bunch of maneuvers that rely on jumps. If I ever felt like playing a Final Fantasy style Dragoon, Tiger Claw is the first place I'd look. Yeah, but how many of them do anything other than +xd6 and opponent is flat-footed (the most irrelevant status)?
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Jul 16, 2015 20:18
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I just wonder, aside from the retroclone thread (which feels perfunctory at times) if there's an appreciable difference in perception here between "People who are into old RPGs who aren't lovely" and "OSR" or if everyone who likes to play DCC is seen as a shitman? I dunno, maybe it's more that I resent a somewhat useful term being associated with all that. I can say "OSR" and a quite a few people recognize that I want to play Swords & Wizardry.
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Jul 16, 2015 20:28
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quote:Hate to tell you this, but the OSR blog community is way too accepting of that poo poo. I think part of it is that the community (or at least the vocal part of it) is so small that nobody ever really wants to turn away anybody else. Kasimir Urbanski added me to his G+ circle out of, as far as I can tell, just commenting on related threads where I wasn't actively trying to be mean, whereas I'd consider it rather inconceivable that I'd receive such attention in any other entertainment genre or subgenre, even in the age of social media. quote:Yeah, but how many of them do anything other than +xd6 and opponent is flat-footed (the most irrelevant status)? Out of 16 attack Maneuvers in the Tiger Claw discipline, only 3 do more than just add damage.
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Jul 16, 2015 20:29
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Lightning Lord posted:I just wonder, aside from the retroclone thread (which feels perfunctory at times) if there's an appreciable difference in perception here between "People who are into old RPGs who aren't lovely" and "OSR" or if everyone who likes to play DCC is seen as a shitman? I dunno, maybe it's more that I resent a somewhat useful term being associated with all that. I can say "OSR" and a quite a few people recognize that I want to play Swords & Wizardry. I try to differentiate between "someone who likes old school D&D" and "card-carrying member of the OSR" because the latter that I've encountered have almost invariably been some stripe of crusty, insufferable blowhard even if they aren't a toxic rear end in a top hat on Zak S' level. I'm talking about the guys who aren't all about how old school gaming is fun but instead how newer games and their players are lazy, entitled, dumb, etc. because they can't grasp the sublime interplays of THAC0. I mean, even the retroclone thread here has had some hilarious moments like the dude who ragequit the thread because people weren't talking about the right sort of things.
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Jul 16, 2015 22:26
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You can like older editions without being a part of the OSR, a fact the OSR themselves have yet to grasp. Like, at least half these forums adore BECMI.
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Jul 17, 2015 00:47
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Yeah but we're just hipsters who don't really like it because of [reasons].
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Jul 17, 2015 00:49
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Kai Tave posted:I try to differentiate between "someone who likes old school D&D" and "card-carrying member of the OSR" because the latter that I've encountered have almost invariably been some stripe of crusty, insufferable blowhard even if they aren't a toxic rear end in a top hat on Zak S' level. I'm talking about the guys who aren't all about how old school gaming is fun but instead how newer games and their players are lazy, entitled, dumb, etc. because they can't grasp the sublime interplays of THAC0. Zak is now quoting this (on the g+ thread linked earlier) to say you are "a liar, a sexist, and a bigot", because not everyone he games with are "guys".
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Jul 17, 2015 01:56
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inklesspen posted:Zak is now quoting this (on the g+ thread linked earlier) to say you are "a liar, a sexist, and a bigot", because not everyone he games with are "guys". Bwahahahaha
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Jul 17, 2015 01:59
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inklesspen posted:Zak is now quoting this (on the g+ thread linked earlier) to say you are "a liar, a sexist, and a bigot", because not everyone he games with are "guys". ZAK S sat down at a cafe table with his companions, his blue eyes sparkling like the bright sea below, and ordered a bottle of Saumur with a pleased impatience. He was for some reason in a condition of curious hilarity. His spirits were already unnaturally high; they rose as the Saumur sank, and in half an hour his talk was a torrent of nonsense. He professed to be making out a plan of the conversation which was going to ensue between himself and the deadly Kai Tave. He jotted it down wildly with a pencil. It was arranged like a printed catechism, with questions and answers, and was delivered with an extraordinary rapidity of utterance. "I shall approach. Before taking off his hat, I shall take off my own. I shall say, 'The Former Moderator of RPGnet Kai Tave, I believe.' He will say, 'The celebrated Mr. S, I presume.' He will say in the most exquisite Sindarin, 'How are you?' I shall reply in the most exquisite Klingon, 'Oh, just the S—'" "Oh, shut it," said the man in spectacles. "Pull yourself together, and chuck away that bit of paper. What are you really going to do?" "But it was a lovely catechism," said Zak S pathetically. "Do let me read it you. It has only forty-three questions and answers, and some of Kai Tave's's answers are wonderfully witty." "But what's the good of it all?" asked Dr. Bull in exasperation. "It leads up to my challenge, don't you see," said S, beaming. "When he has given the thirty-ninth reply, which runs—"
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Jul 17, 2015 02:13
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Mormon Star Wars posted:ZAK S sat down at a cafe table with his companions, his blue eyes sparkling like the bright sea below, and ordered a bottle of Saumur with a pleased impatience. He was for some reason in a condition of curious hilarity. His spirits were already unnaturally high; they rose as the Saumur sank, and in half an hour his talk was a torrent of nonsense. He professed to be making out a plan of the conversation which was going to ensue between himself and the deadly Kai Tave. He jotted it down wildly with a pencil. It was arranged like a printed catechism, with questions and answers, and was delivered with an extraordinary rapidity of utterance. Well done 
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Jul 17, 2015 02:22
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Hey Zak, if you're still reading this you and your girlfriend are both creepy weirdos and I'm glad more people are aware of than than they used to be. I'm also glad I was able to have a lasting impact on your life to the point that you remember to include me in your rambling conspiracy wall pictures and lurk grognards.txt (or have one of your followers do it for you I guess) so you can quote me in random G+ discussions.
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Jul 17, 2015 03:24
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Kai Tave posted:Hey Zak, if you're still reading this you and your girlfriend are both creepy weirdos and I'm glad more people are aware of than than they used to be. I'm also glad I was able to have a lasting impact on your life to the point that you remember to include me in your rambling conspiracy wall pictures and lurk grognards.txt (or have one of your followers do it for you I guess) so you can quote me in random G+ discussions. Dear Lowtax, please put TG behind the BOOGEYMAAAAAANNNNN thanks in advance.
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Jul 17, 2015 05:16
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Plague of Hats posted:I'm no mod, but here're some suggestions I will make while looking very stern:
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Jul 17, 2015 05:25
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^^^Yeah aight, fair enough. Actually that raises a legit question, who are the prominent (or even not so prominent) female voices and publishers in the OSR? I know that at least one of Zak's gaming groups is largely made up of women but whenever I hear someone listing off the major OSR designers and bloggers like James Raggi, Kasimir Urbanski, James Maliszewski, Alexander Macris, etc. it's just a long list of dudes. I'm genuinely curious, are there any major female bloggers or OSR game publishers out there?
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Jul 17, 2015 05:28
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