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Aphrodite posted:The Elsa in the Secret Wars Marvel Zombies stuff seems to be the Nextwave Elsa. I think that's more because Si Spurrier writes characters in a similar way to Ellis.
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Jul 20, 2015 15:27
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Didn't Ellis create her anyway, though?
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Jul 20, 2015 15:34
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Gaz-L posted:Didn't Ellis create her anyway, though? Nope. http://comicbookdb.com/issue.php?ID=46035 Ellis totally revamped her into a salvageable character, but he didn't create her. edit: lol the cover to #2, I had forgotten redbackground fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Jul 20, 2015 |
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Jul 20, 2015 15:36
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ecavalli posted:Getting back on topic: Do the Nextwave heroes appear anywhere outside of Warren Ellis' miniseries in their Nextwave incarnations? I know Captain Marvel and a few of the others were relatively minor characters prior to Warren Ellis making them interesting, but do they remain interesting elsewhere? You should pick up the first Captain America and the Mighty Avengers trade by Ewing. From the Nextwave team it only has Monica in it, but is very much related to the Nextwave series. If you can stomach some Greg Land art, get the Mighty Avengers series Ewing did right before that too.
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Jul 20, 2015 15:51
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ecavalli posted:Okay then. Nextwave appeared for a single Panel in Army of Darkness vs Marvel Zombies. They died immediately.
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Jul 20, 2015 18:43
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Tabby was still wearing her trench coat when she showed up in whatever xmen series a month or two back.
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Jul 20, 2015 19:30
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Identity Crisis was one of the very first comics I read, and I remember finding it a very solid detective story, but now I can understand how people could be pissed about the story's consequences and treatment of characters. What was the general reaction at the time it came out? Also, did Ralph and Sue come back in a more traditional portrayal for New 52?
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Jul 21, 2015 03:20
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I don't think Ralph and Sue have existed at all in the New 52.
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Jul 21, 2015 03:21
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Jerry Cotton posted:Hmm yes I totally remember the bit where I was outraged. Die in a fire.
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Jul 21, 2015 03:26
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Cyphoderus posted:Identity Crisis was one of the very first comics I read, and I remember finding it a very solid detective story, but now I can understand how people could be pissed about the story's consequences and treatment of characters. What was the general reaction at the time it came out? Here at SA, we were all mostly super into it. To the point that it was a thread in GBS that led to BSS being added as a subforum. Everyone was interested until the moment we got the final issue. Then everyone threw tables over how bad it was.
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Jul 21, 2015 03:39
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Cyphoderus posted:Identity Crisis was one of the very first comics I read, and I remember finding it a very solid detective story, but now I can understand how people could be pissed about the story's consequences and treatment of characters. What was the general reaction at the time it came out? It was a lot like Civil War. The masses loved it, others pointed out how terribly it was plotted and how it trashed characters.
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Jul 21, 2015 03:41
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Identity Crisis came out when I was about thirteen or fourteen and I loooved it at the time. I reread it around twenty and thought it was still pretty good, but saw all the flaws that bothered everyone else, especially since I'd become way more familiar with these characters. Been meaning to reread it again lately.
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Jul 21, 2015 04:06
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Travis343 posted:I don't think Ralph and Sue have existed at all in the New 52. http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/06/19/the-dc-comics-character-hiding-in-the-secret-six-spoilers/
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Jul 21, 2015 07:38
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Cyphoderus posted:Identity Crisis was one of the very first comics I read, and I remember finding it a very solid detective story, but now I can understand how people could be pissed about the story's consequences and treatment of characters. What was the general reaction at the time it came out? No. Sue was still murdered (and probably raped) and Ralph is a crazy person who keeps a shrine to her and works for supervillains. It loving sucks.
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Jul 21, 2015 19:12
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It's a shame All-Straw Sue Dibny never took off.
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Jul 21, 2015 19:18
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I dislike Identity Crisis a whole lot. I liked it a whole lot closer to the time it came out when I was 13 or 14 and it made me feel like I was reading something really mature and sophisticated. I imagine the former is a result of the latter. I think I might actually like it less than Ultimatum, even if Ultimatum is probably objectively worse. Rags Morales's art on it was good, though.
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Jul 21, 2015 19:41
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It's been a while since I read it, what was the backlash over?
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Jul 21, 2015 19:46
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zoux posted:It's been a while since I read it, what was the backlash over? Rape as an shortcut to "this is a serious and mature book". Plus Green Lantern tried to physically punch Deathstroke for some reason.
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Jul 21, 2015 19:50
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SirDan3k posted:Rape as an shortcut to "this is a serious and mature book". Also it's a murder mystery where the killer's motivation is "bitches be crazy" and she could have accomplished her goal at any time by literally asking for it, and the initial murder gets justified because the murderer didn't actually intend to kill anyone, but packed a flamethrower just in case.
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Jul 21, 2015 20:09
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zoux posted:It's been a while since I read it, what was the backlash over?
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Jul 21, 2015 20:09
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zoux posted:It's been a while since I read it, what was the backlash over? Basically it's an attempt to make the universe more 'mature' primarily through the mediums of rape and violence. It takes lighthearted and good-natured characters and subjects them to atrocities in order to make things feel more Real and Serious. It guts the characters of Ralph and Sue Dibny, forces Dr. Light to forever be Dr. Rape, ends up turning Tim Drake into Yet Another Bat Orphan and Jean Lorning just ends up a mess. On top of that it's a bad murder mystery with an inane reveal.
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Jul 21, 2015 20:16
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CapnAndy posted:Same fight, apparently Flash can be defeated by sticking a sword behind yourself and waiting for him to impale himself on it, since he couldn't see that coming or anything. Really, the entire Deathstroke-always-wins-he's-so-smart-and-cool thing that DC finally gave up on flogging after his Nu52 solo book flopped. The flash thing did not bother me that much as Wally and Slade have been fighting each other for years.
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Jul 21, 2015 20:18
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zoux posted:It's been a while since I read it, what was the backlash over? Different readers have different responses. Some people thought the entire mystery was a damp squib in the end (it was). Some people thought the fight where Deathstroke takes out the JLA was rubbish (it was). Some people thought the use of rape as a plot device was offensive (it was). Some people thought it came off as DC apologising for the Silver Age while trying to retcon it into something that didn't embarrass them (it was). I must say, though, I have to imagine it was at least partly intentional that, after they decide it would be a great idea to turn Doctor Light into a badass supervillain by making him a depraved serial rapist who talks about how much he likes raping people ("It's like that's his power now"), almost every subsequent appearance just makes him more pathetic, because he comes off as a total loser who was once able to hurt a superhero's wife and now he won't shut up about it.
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Jul 21, 2015 20:25
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Wheat Loaf posted:I must say, though, I have to imagine it was at least partly intentional that, after they decide it would be a great idea to turn Doctor Light into a badass supervillain by making him a depraved serial rapist who talks about how much he likes raping people ("It's like that's his power now"), almost every subsequent appearance just makes him more pathetic, because he comes off as a total loser who was once able to hurt a superhero's wife and now he won't shut up about it. He was later killed by Spectre. What was he doing when he was killed? He hired a bunch of whores to dress as the teen titans and he was "raping" them. Then during blackest night he came back and he saw Firestorm's dead girlfriend. She was turned into salt and was licking the corpse.
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Jul 21, 2015 20:29
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Flashpoint really was a mercy killing.
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Jul 21, 2015 20:30
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bobkatt013 posted:He was later killed by Spectre. What was he doing when he was killed? He hired a bunch of whores to dress as the teen titans and he was "raping" them. Then during blackest night he came back and he saw Firestorm's dead girlfriend. She was turned into salt and was licking the corpse. In one of the tie-ins, he also went after Kimoyo Hoshi (the female Dr Light) and attacked her by blasting her costume off while talking about how he was going to rape her and eat her children. He has one appearance in Teen Titans immediately after Identity Crisis where he's presented as a dangerous villain without (as far as I can remember) him talking about rape, how much he likes rape, or how much rape he wants to do, which I suppose just goes to show how shallow the entire angle really was. Is "Doctor Light was a dangerous villain until the Justice League mind-wiped him" a potentially interesting story? Yes, I think it is. But did he need to be a rapist for the purposes of this story? Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Jul 21, 2015 |
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Jul 21, 2015 21:10
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CapnAndy posted:Same fight, apparently Flash can be defeated by sticking a sword behind yourself and waiting for him to impale himself on it, since he couldn't see that coming or anything. Really, the entire Deathstroke-always-wins-he's-so-smart-and-cool thing that DC finally gave up on flogging after his Nu52 solo book flopped. I read the IC as a trade years after it came out so I guess I was a bit older when I read it than most, but the whole reveal/motivation thing was the thing that bothered me most. Jean's plans made no loving sense, and the fact that Ray wanted to get back with her before she started killing friends with flamethrowers made it definitely seem like a case of "bitches be crazy". The reveal of this was stupid as well as it played on the whole cliche of "...but I didn't mention that she was pooped on the brain. Only the killer would have known that". Also the whole comic made every hero in it seem like an incompetent moron. Funnily enough, I gave my trade to a friend who hadn't read comics in over a decade and he really liked IC, so maybe it might have more appeal to new readers.
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Jul 21, 2015 21:32
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Wheat Loaf posted:Some people thought it came off as DC apologising for the Silver Age while trying to retcon it into something that didn't embarrass them (it was). This is super interesting to me because one of the main thing that separates DC from Marvel, in my head, is that DC cares about its fictional history. I love James Robinson's Starman run, and I'm just finishing Johns' JSA. These titles, along with things like JSA: Golden Age and DC: New Frontier, pay homage to the company's past in some lovely, lovely ways. And they're good stories in and of themselves, so that new readers can get what they're all about without having actually read the older comics. Do you guys think we'll get more titles like this, considering how wonky New 52 continuity is?
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Jul 21, 2015 21:43
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Cyphoderus posted:This is super interesting to me because one of the main thing that separates DC from Marvel, in my head, is that DC cares about its fictional history. I love James Robinson's Starman run, and I'm just finishing Johns' JSA. These titles, along with things like JSA: Golden Age and DC: New Frontier, pay homage to the company's past in some lovely, lovely ways. And they're good stories in and of themselves, so that new readers can get what they're all about without having actually read the older comics. DC's problem is that it does both. It cares about its fictional history but it is also embarrassed by it. Not always. You have writers like Morrison who love every stupid bit of it. You just have a lot of writers who are like "no, Aquaman is a serious badass" or frantic attempts to lampshade older stories or attempts to 'serious up' silly characters. IC was sort of the apex of they're "we're serious adult comics, MOM" era.
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Jul 21, 2015 21:58
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Brad Meltzer is actually a really great dude, and isn't embarrassed by silver age comics in the least. He just wrote a lovely mystery that was propped up by some really great character moments. The book is worth reading just for the characters talking to eachother. Ralph talking to Firehawk, Superman and his mom, Ollie and Flash, Ollie and Hal, everything with Batman, even Firestorm's out of nowhere death had a good emotional punch. Shame about all the Sue and Jean stuff though.
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Jul 21, 2015 22:06
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Since I'm currently reading 52 and read Infinite Crisis before that, Identity Crisis was what started Bruce's whole Brother Eye/OMAC thing, correct? What were the other effects on the DC universe between the two IC's?
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Jul 21, 2015 22:08
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Die Laughing posted:Brad Meltzer is actually a really great dude, and isn't embarrassed by silver age comics in the least. He just wrote a lovely mystery that was propped up by some really great character moments. The book is worth reading just for the characters talking to eachother. Ralph talking to Firehawk, Superman and his mom, Ollie and Flash, Ollie and Hal, everything with Batman, even Firestorm's out of nowhere death had a good emotional punch. The entire story's basis is embarrassment over silver age. It is based on the idea that these villains changing, reforming or just being silly is the result of systemic brainwashing to hide their horrific violence. Brad Meltzer can be a great dude but that doesn't mean the core thesis of his story wasn't "what if all this not-horrible stuff was just covering up mature adult rape and violence?!"
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Jul 21, 2015 22:10
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zoux posted:Since I'm currently reading 52 and read Infinite Crisis before that, Identity Crisis was what started Bruce's whole Brother Eye/OMAC thing, correct? What were the other effects on the DC universe between the two IC's? New Firestorm! Otherwise....er.....villains find out that the heroes brainwashed them to be idiots and didn't like that.
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Jul 21, 2015 22:28
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Madkal posted:New Firestorm! Oh is that why they all teamed up together. Infinite Crisis basically starts in the middle of a ton of different disasters, it's kind of confusing if you didn't read the lead up.
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Jul 21, 2015 22:29
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Read the Countdown to Infinite Crisis one-shot. It's good and free. https://www.comixology.com/Countdown-to-Infinite-Crisis-1/digital-comic/9092?ref=c2VyaWVzL3ZpZXcvZGVza3RvcC9ncmlkTGlzdC9PbmVTaG90cw Teenage Fansub fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Jul 21, 2015 |
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Jul 21, 2015 22:49
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zoux posted:Oh is that why they all teamed up together. Infinite Crisis basically starts in the middle of a ton of different disasters, it's kind of confusing if you didn't read the lead up. There was the one-shot called Villains United (which shot off to Secret Six) that basically deals with the villains kind of being pissed off and getting together to take down the heroes.
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Jul 21, 2015 23:08
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zoux posted:Oh is that why they all teamed up together. Infinite Crisis basically starts in the middle of a ton of different disasters, it's kind of confusing if you didn't read the lead up. The way they did it is this: Sometime after Identity Crisis happened, they did Countdown to Infinite Crisis. It's a one-shot about Blue Beetle (Ted Kord) going around, trying to solve a mystery. It plays up how nobody really takes him seriously other than Booster Gold and Wonder Woman and all the other heroes treat him as an annoyance. We get a gut-punch ending that at least makes him look pretty badass. It's worth noting that around this time, everything has been going to poo poo for Batman. Jason Todd's come back from the dead and hates Batman for not doing anything about his murder in the first place. There's a huge rift between him and Tim as well as his relationship with Superman. He had a new Robin named Stephanie Brown, but she got killed and Batman's mother figure Leslie Thompkins let her die rather than treat her because THIS NEEDS TO STOP, BRUCE! So yeah, Batman's in a really bad place emotionally, even without the whole mind-wipe situation. Countdown to Infinite Crisis leads into four minis. Villains United is about all the villains unionizing together, run by Lex Luthor, Talia, Black Adam, etc. A handful of villains have decided not to play ball and are working for a mysterious person named Mockingbird. The main character is Catman, a villain last seen as fat and pathetic, only he's now remade himself as this dashing Wolverine type. The Rann-Thanagar War is something that you can completely skip. Don't even worry about it. Boring characters go to space to have a boring space war. OMAC Project is a more direct follow-up to the ending of Countdown to Infinite Crisis. It's about random people being transformed into what are essentially Sentinels to take out any and all metahumans. There are Superman and Wonder Woman issues that tie into this and they're a pretty big deal. Day of Vengeance has to do with the Spectre going nutty and having a real hate-on for magic in all its forms. He dedicates himself to wiping out any and all magic. A group of magic heroes get together in hopes of stopping him. All of these funnel into Infinite Crisis. Over the course of IC, each of those earlier minis have a one-shot that brings closure to their stories. It was a really exciting time to be a reader, but it really is a big mess. I've always liked how they did a novelization (more importantly, an audio book of said novelization) that takes every tie-in and molds it into a coherent story.
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Jul 22, 2015 01:02
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Gavok posted:Day of Vengeance has to do with the Spectre going nutty and having a real hate-on for magic in all its forms. Because Eclipso said she would have sex with him if he did.  Actually, I think more than one of the lead-in miniseries had tie-ins, didn't they? I remember JSA having a Day of Vengeance tie-in (which was really good - it's the one where Atom Smasher sacrifices himself to save the people of Kahndaq and Black Adam revives him by using his magic lightning as a massive defibrillator). Aside from that, there was more minor stuff like the Spectre appearing for a handful of pages in an issue of Superman to take out Satanus.
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Jul 22, 2015 02:30
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Gavok posted:It was a really exciting time to be a reader, but it really is a big mess. I've always liked how they did a novelization (more importantly, an audio book of said novelization) that takes every tie-in and molds it into a coherent story. Infinite Crisis has such incredible build up with each reveal being a great "OMG!" moment. And then Infinite Crisis came out and it was lovely. Wheat Loaf posted:Actually, I think more than one of the lead-in miniseries had tie-ins, didn't they? I remember JSA having a Day of Vengeance tie-in (which was really good - it's the one where Atom Smasher sacrifices himself to save the people of Kahndaq and Black Adam revives him by using his magic lightning as a massive defibrillator). Aside from that, there was more minor stuff like the Spectre appearing for a handful of pages in an issue of Superman to take out Satanus. And there was the Sacrifice storyline in Superman which crossed over with Wonder Woman and that Titans miniseries.
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Jul 22, 2015 02:36
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Yeah, basically every DC comic at the time tied into something. It was actually kind of nice. A lot of the time, events lead to really tiresome tie-ins like Blackest Night, Secret Invasion and Civil War. At this point, there was so much poo poo going on that anything could be happening. You could have Bizarro tangling with OMACs or Batman and Red Hood teaming up against the Secret Society. It also led to a really good Adventures of Superman tie-in where we saw that Spectre's assault on magic had completely hosed with Mr. Mxyzptlk and rendered him powerless with a bad sense of memory. It was heartbreaking and is one of the better "Superman is a really, really good dude" stories.
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Jul 22, 2015 02:44
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