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Everblight posted:Wrong. Dreamcast was killed off by the widespread availability at the time of CDRs and CD Burners, and the fact that they did absolutely no piracy control whatsoever, so you could just burn a game onto a 40c disk and play immediately. Yeah, they expected the weird proprietary GD-ROM disc format to act as the entire anti-piracy system, which would have worked fine as the blank discs weren't available anywhere nor could they be burned without special burners. It was Sega's decision to release a Japan-only series of multimedia CDs that unwittingly added a backdoor to bypass their antipiracy scheme entirely. Mil-CD was a format released by Sega whose gimmick was that they were normal CDs that did extra stuff in a Dreamcast like play video or access web features. To support them, the Dreamcast needed to be able to execute code from otherwise normal CDs. That would be fine and dandy, except they were so confident in GD-ROM's ability to prevent piracy that they forgot to add an antipiracy scheme to the Mil-CD feature.
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Jul 22, 2015 19:38
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Everblight posted:Wrong. Dreamcast was killed off by the widespread availability at the time of CDRs and CD Burners, and the fact that they did absolutely no piracy control whatsoever, so you could just burn a game onto a 40c disk and play immediately. Ripping a GD-ROM was not trivial and condensing all the video and music so it would fit on a CD-Rom wasn't much easier. The DC had such good games though that people made the effort. I still have my DC and play it fairly frequently. Zonekeeper posted:Yeah, they expected the weird proprietary GD-ROM disc format to act as the entire anti-piracy system, which would have worked fine as the blank discs weren't available anywhere nor could they be burned without special burners. It was Sega's decision to release a Japan-only series of multimedia CDs that unwittingly added a backdoor to bypass their antipiracy scheme entirely. It also took the surge of Hotline for distribution. Usenet was big, but once there was direct unsegmented downloads that was the tipping point. (And DiskJuggler) Humbug Scoolbus has a new favorite as of 19:58 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 19:54
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Zereth posted:The PS2 was, as I recall, one of the earliest affordable decent quality DVD players available, too. hat was an absolutely killer advantage. Part of me was wondering if the highway to high end console gaming was paved again for Sony when Blu-ray over took HD DVD. As the PS3 had internal Blu-ray support and the Xbox 360 needed an adapter to play HD DVD.  Also heard a rumor when HD DVD went down that HD DVD and Blu-ray were close in competition but the porn industry decided to support Blu-ray which destroyed HD DVD.
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Jul 22, 2015 19:57
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drgnwr1 posted:Part of me was wondering if the highway to high end console gaming was paved again for Sony when Blu-ray over took HD DVD. As the PS3 had internal Blu-ray support and the Xbox 360 needed an adapter to play HD DVD. Obviously it wasn't - the PS3's struggles after launching with a sky-high price and few games to show for it was testament to that. It wasn't until a massive price drop and increased 3rd party support years later that it started catching up to the 360. Also, Porn was only a factor in VHS beating Betamax - by the time Blu-ray came out internet porn was too easy to come by for disc sales to mean anything. The thing that swung the format war in Blu-ray's favor was Disney deciding on it. Once Disney picked a side, the war was effectively over and eventually everyone else fell in line. Edit: Of course, my complaints about the PS3 only apply to the gaming side of things. As a Blu-ray player, it's the gold standard all the others are measured by and always has been. Zonekeeper has a new favorite as of 20:11 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 20:04
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drgnwr1 posted:Part of me was wondering if the highway to high end console gaming was paved again for Sony when Blu-ray over took HD DVD. As the PS3 had internal Blu-ray support and the Xbox 360 needed an adapter to play HD DVD. That's the main reason I chose Sony. For a long time, the PS3 when it came out was drat near the cheapest Blu-Ray player with the added benefit that as a player it was fairly future proof with Internet available system updates. drgnwr1 posted:Also heard a rumor when HD DVD went down that HD DVD and Blu-ray were close in competition but the porn industry decided to support Blu-ray which destroyed HD DVD. That's the reason I've always heard, but I've never seen any credible source to support the claim (it's not like I was actually looking for it, either). I know the studios were on board because the copy protection was far more flexible than HD-DVDs.
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Jul 22, 2015 20:05
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flosofl posted:That's the main reason I chose Sony. For a long time, the PS3 when it came out was drat near the cheapest Blu-Ray player with the added benefit that as a player it was fairly future proof with Internet available system updates. It wasn't just a cheap one, it was drat near one of the best available, to the point where it was part of the Criterion Collection's reference theater. carry on then has a new favorite as of 20:12 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 20:09
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Zonekeeper posted:Obviously it wasn't - the PS3's struggles after launching with a sky-high price and few games to show for it was testament to that. It wasn't until a massive price drop and increased 3rd party support years later that it started catching up to the 360. This is only the case in the US. Worldwide the PS3 likely never sold less than the 360 in any given month.
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Jul 22, 2015 20:13
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GD-ROM was considered adequate protection because it was a proprietary format, they didn't count on people importing expensive dev kits and cannibalizing the console itself to create a drive. And it was not easy to rip games, although once someone made a good image it was trivial to use. It requires dedicated equipment and knowledge of compression techniques and later injecting the boot loader into the image so you didn't need a separate boot disc.
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Jul 22, 2015 20:31
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drgnwr1 posted:Part of me was wondering if the highway to high end console gaming was paved again for Sony when Blu-ray over took HD DVD. As the PS3 had internal Blu-ray support and the Xbox 360 needed an adapter to play HD DVD. A lot of people think that MS backed HD-DVD, not because they thought it would better Blu-Ray or because they wanted HD-DVD to succeed over Sony's Blu-Ray, but because they wanted to both formats to fail. MS wanted to support HD-DVD because was already losing ground to Blu-Ray to draw out the fight between so that both formats would be weaken and that on-line streaming services would win out in the end.
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Jul 22, 2015 20:32
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A lot of  people, you mean?I mean, that's a pretty long con game to play when you're sinking money into R&D, marketing, production, licensing, etc to make an addon disc player for a format you want to fail. Arrath has a new favorite as of 20:40 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 20:34
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I wanted HD-DVD to win at the time because Bluray was an unfinished spec and used Java. And because gently caress Sony and their proprietary media formats. I think HD-DVD should have pushed a price advantage, since they could be made with existing DVD manufacturing equipment, right? They should have made them be like 5 or 10 bucks cheaper and they'd have won, maybe.
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Jul 22, 2015 20:45
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pienipple posted:GD-ROM was considered adequate protection because it was a proprietary format, they didn't count on people importing expensive dev kits and cannibalizing the console itself to create a drive. Right, but all of that wouldn't have hurt the console if not for the Mil-CD oversight that allowed games burned on CD-Rs to run. Going through all that effort to rip the games is pointless if you can't run them. That wouldn't stop some people, but the applications would have been very limited until PCs got powerful enough to run emulators at a playable speed. Because it was so goddamned easy to run pirated games on the Dreamcast, there was a very big incentive to figure out how to rip games and people were willing to put a lot more effort into it.
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Jul 22, 2015 20:52
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Zereth posted:The PS2 was, as I recall, one of the earliest affordable decent quality DVD players available, too. hat was an absolutely killer advantage. I had both and I can confirm my DVD player (Philips DVD711AT) bought in 1999 cost way more. It was loving huge too. beato has a new favorite as of 21:18 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 21:15
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I still don't think you can reasonably ascribe the Dreamcast's failure to piracy. The OG Xbox was the most pirate friendly system of all time and it didn't die in 18 months, and I run pirated games on my PS2 to this day. The Dreamcast's failure had many factors, not just technological, but lack of consumer confidence after the failure of --- 32X, Sega CD, and Saturn -- pretty much everything Sega ever did other than the Genesis, Sega's money problems after it's previous failures, and poor third-party support. The only chance the Dreamcast had to succeed with the PS2 coming was if it were an immediate runaway smash success, but after a decade of disappointing Sega consoles, everyone decided to 'wait and see'. By the time they waited and saw, the PS2 was out, and a better deal.
Imagined has a new favorite as of 21:26 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 21:18
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Light Gun Man posted:I wanted HD-DVD to win at the time because Bluray was an unfinished spec and used Java. And because gently caress Sony and their proprietary media formats. Sony is like a sixteenth of Bluray.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:20
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Imagined posted:I still don't think you can reasonably ascribe the Dreamcast's failure to piracy. The OG Xbox was the most pirate friendly system of all time and it didn't die in 18 months, and I run pirated games on my PS2 to this day. The Dreamcast's failure had many factors, not just technological, but lack of consumer confidence after the failure of --- 32X, Sega CD, and Saturn -- pretty much everything Sega ever did other than the Genesis, Sega's money problems after it's previous failures, and poor third-party support. You're absolutely right that easy piracy isn't the whole story - The Wii was cracked wide open for years but it was still a success by any reasonable measure. I think the correct assessment is that it was a combination of all those things - Sega's lack of capital, loss of industry confidence in Sega's brand, widespread piracy, and a competitor they couldn't hope to beat in sales are some huge hurdles, and Sega just couldn't overcome all of them at once.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:25
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Meanwhile with the OG Xbox you've got things like Halo 2 and XBL to buoy the system and keep raking in the money despite rampant piracy. Success!
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Jul 22, 2015 21:30
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beato posted:I had both and I can confirm my DVD player (Philips DVD711AT) bought in 1999 cost way more. It was loving huge too. I got a PS2 as a DVD player mostly as it was simple to use discs from any region on it just required a special CD that you would put in, select your region then the drive would pop open and you put in your CD. I can't recall why exactly I did this as I had a multi-region Samsung DVD player at the same time.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:34
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Arrath posted:Meanwhile with the OG Xbox you've got things like Halo 2 and XBL to buoy the system and keep raking in the money despite rampant piracy. Success! Hard to call the OG Xbox a success, at least financially. Microsoft lost money, hand-over-fist on that console.
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Jul 22, 2015 22:13
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Aphrodite posted:Sony is like a sixteenth of Bluray. I don't have a problem with it now, those were just my format war thoughts in the heat of the moment.
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Jul 22, 2015 22:15
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Lowen SoDium posted:Hard to call the OG Xbox a success, at least financially. Microsoft lost money, hand-over-fist on that console. They didn't profit finacially but they got the in they wanted in the console business.
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Jul 22, 2015 22:51
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Boiled Water posted:They didn't profit finacially but they got the in they wanted in the console business. And we got, after a soft modding, a fairly decent emulation machine! 
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Jul 22, 2015 22:58
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HD DVD was really expensive. I remember they insisted on pushing movies on "combo" discs that included both the HD and DVD versions. It drove up the price for most movies to $28 while you could get Blu Rays for $20. I also had a Toshiba HD DVD player and it took forever to boot up a movie. Usually at least 90 seconds for the player to start up. And then another minute for the movie to start. Mu Zeta has a new favorite as of 23:34 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 23:26
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Zonekeeper posted:Yeah, they expected the weird proprietary GD-ROM disc format to act as the entire anti-piracy system, which would have worked fine as the blank discs weren't available anywhere nor could they be burned without special burners. It was Sega's decision to release a Japan-only series of multimedia CDs that unwittingly added a backdoor to bypass their antipiracy scheme entirely. One of the more interesting things to result from Dreamcast's poor security was Bleemcast. This software was an emulator bootdisc for commercial PS1 games that was ported over from the PC version. The bleemcast disc would exploit the security hole when booted, and would then launch an emulator from RAM, which would allow you to swap in a PS1 disc. It was originally going to be a universal PS1 emulator, but because of compatibility issues they only ended up selling 3 different bootdiscs for Gran Turismo 2, Tekken 3, and Metal Gear Solid. Even with the emulation layer, the DC was able to run these games much better than an actual PS1, so they were rendered at a higher resolution with additional post processing. The DC controller didn't map 1:1 with the PS1 controller, which was an issue, but otherwise these discs apparently worked somehow. The PC version of Bleem was a full emulator, but many (or most?) games were unplayably buggy without dedicated compatibility fixes. However, before they could release more bootdiscs (or a universal emulator), Sony sued them and drove them to bankruptcy with legal fees.
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Jul 22, 2015 23:46
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Slanderer posted:One of the more interesting things to result from Dreamcast's poor security was Bleemcast. This software was an emulator bootdisc for commercial PS1 games that was ported over from the PC version. The bleemcast disc would exploit the security hole when booted, and would then launch an emulator from RAM, which would allow you to swap in a PS1 disc. It was originally going to be a universal PS1 emulator, but because of compatibility issues they only ended up selling 3 different bootdiscs for Gran Turismo 2, Tekken 3, and Metal Gear Solid. Even with the emulation layer, the DC was able to run these games much better than an actual PS1, so they were rendered at a higher resolution with additional post processing. The DC controller didn't map 1:1 with the PS1 controller, which was an issue, but otherwise these discs apparently worked somehow. The PC version of Bleem was a full emulator, but many (or most?) games were unplayably buggy without dedicated compatibility fixes. 
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Jul 22, 2015 23:50
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Boiled Water posted:They didn't profit finacially but they got the in they wanted in the console business. That is exactly my point. Arrath said they were raking in the money despite rampant piracy, when they were not.
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Jul 22, 2015 23:54
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One of Sony's many forays in to weird proprietary formats was the "Universal" Media Disc, films sold in an optical format which could only be played on the PlayStation Portable. That meant watching full-length movies on a tiny screen held between your hands. I could kind of see a market for it if they sold films for a couple of bucks a pop from vending machines at airports and bus stations - places where people might very well think "gently caress, I've got nothing to do for the next few hours". But nope, you had to make the trip to your regular DVD store and pay more than the equivalent DVD would cost for an objectively worse experience. Not surprisingly, few people did.
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Jul 23, 2015 00:00
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drgnwr1 posted:Part of me was wondering if the highway to high end console gaming was paved again for Sony when Blu-ray over took HD DVD. As the PS3 had internal Blu-ray support and the Xbox 360 needed an adapter to play HD DVD. I bought one of these and about two dozen movies. A month before the Disney announcement and the death of HDDVD. I then purchased a PS3.
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Jul 23, 2015 00:21
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Slanderer posted:One of the more interesting things to result from Dreamcast's poor security was Bleemcast. This software was an emulator bootdisc for commercial PS1 games that was ported over from the PC version. The bleemcast disc would exploit the security hole when booted, and would then launch an emulator from RAM, which would allow you to swap in a PS1 disc. It was originally going to be a universal PS1 emulator, but because of compatibility issues they only ended up selling 3 different bootdiscs for Gran Turismo 2, Tekken 3, and Metal Gear Solid. Even with the emulation layer, the DC was able to run these games much better than an actual PS1, so they were rendered at a higher resolution with additional post processing. The DC controller didn't map 1:1 with the PS1 controller, which was an issue, but otherwise these discs apparently worked somehow. The PC version of Bleem was a full emulator, but many (or most?) games were unplayably buggy without dedicated compatibility fixes. I have a Bleemcast version of Thrillkill actually.
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Jul 23, 2015 00:24
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Boiled Water posted:They didn't profit finacially but they got the in they wanted in the console business. Hilarious failure 10 years later?
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Jul 23, 2015 00:24
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drgnwr1 posted:Also heard a rumor when HD DVD went down that HD DVD and Blu-ray were close in competition but the porn industry decided to support Blu-ray which destroyed HD DVD. It was pretty close for awhile to the point that it was kind of shocking when all of a sudden Blu-Ray was crowned the winner and everyone abandoned HD-DVD. People had been expecting a more drawn out battle, like with Beta and VHS. In the end I think the winner was picked during a trade show. Probably shortly after Disney decided to go Blu-Ray. I remember people using the first HD-DVD players, which were essentially Linux PC's and cost about $1000.
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Jul 23, 2015 02:46
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Lowen SoDium posted:That is exactly my point. Arrath said they were raking in the money despite rampant piracy, when they were not. Mostly I was referring to Xbox live, which from what I understand has been profitable for most of the time it's been running. Halo 2 kept the system afloat long enough for the whole online multiplayer bit to catch on and take off.
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Jul 23, 2015 03:07
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The Xbox as a brand is like $7 billion in the red. Microsoft made a profit on it for about 2 years out of however many they've been making then.
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Jul 23, 2015 03:13
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Huh, I thought I'd read that they started breaking even later in the 360's prime, after the hardware revisions had reduced the rrod issues. Oh well.
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Jul 23, 2015 03:17
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Arrath posted:Huh, I thought I read that they started breaking even later in the 360's prime, after the hardware revisions had reduced the rrod issues. Oh well. They did, but only for those years. They never offset the giant hole, corporate accounting just basically forgets about any year that isn't the current one.
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Jul 23, 2015 03:18
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aardwolf posted:One of Sony's many forays in to weird proprietary formats was the "Universal" Media Disc, films sold in an optical format which could only be played on the PlayStation Portable. Also this was still in that era where smartphones didn't have quite enough battery power to play videos, let alone emulators, so was kinda worth it as a "luggable" media player that had wi-fi and could run assorted emulators to burn time on the bus. There was even a media streamer app so it became a handy little remote unit and RemoteJoy was kind of fun. Though ironically now you'd just use that in conjunction with a PSP emulator. Also to note in many ways piracy tends to set trends in how people want their media, for instance with the PSP everyone had game images loaded up on their memory sticks over lugging around cases full of UMDs.
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Jul 23, 2015 03:20
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Aphrodite posted:They did, but only for those years. They never offset the giant hole, corporate accounting just basically forgets about any year that isn't the current one. I guess that's what I get for assuming it was the beginning of a trend I'd imagine the xbone hasn't greatly helped matters either.
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Jul 23, 2015 03:25
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:I have a Bleemcast version of Thrillkill actually. An unreleased emulation of an unreleased fighting game? Nice!
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Jul 23, 2015 03:51
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Slanderer posted:An unreleased emulation of an unreleased fighting game? Nice! I remember seeing a few Bleemcast mods floating around. One was for Chocobo Racing for the PS1 (of course)
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Jul 23, 2015 05:00
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Aphrodite posted:They did, but only for those years. They never offset the giant hole, corporate accounting just basically forgets about any year that isn't the current one. Did they ever officially admit how many 360s were replaced? Reading the forums a while ago, I got the impression that about 30% of them ended up being replaced: which given the cost of the unit, the profit made per unit and the turnover, must have meant that they were shovelling money in a pit with both hands.
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Jul 23, 2015 08:31
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