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Littlefinger
Oct 13, 2012

Mr. Maltose posted:

I'm glad that Blue Rose specifically sets up my favorite RPG pick up plot, The Jordy Verrill. Nothing beats going into town only to find the local farmer found a gold ring while plowing and gave it to her wife and now we're covered in ghosts and nonsense.
Notice how careful they had to be not to make it "local gentry found a gold ring while hiking and gave it to his nephew and now we're covered in wraiths and nonsense", so they could have their plotless liberal non-rpg story instead of turning it into some honest high fantasy campaign. :v:

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Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012
Fallen Rib

PurpleXVI posted:

Is it still possible to use Shadowgates for their intended purpose, rapid travel? That could open up some neat hooks where criminal groups use active Shadowgates for smuggling, but then one day, whoops, turns out this particular Shadowgate is activated by a virgin smuggling five crates of cocaine during a new moon and oh gently caress we're up to our assholes in zombies. Or player characters maybe having a useful shortcut... but who knows when it'll become a hellmouth instead? Should they report it and take the hard route?

The book hasn't said that you can't use them for teleportation if you know how (or if you're deranged or desperate enough to try) and so I'd certainly say that the possibility exists. I'd say the big risk beyond the obvious one of letting a horde of darkfiends through by trying is the fact that you're traveling through something that's been brushing against the realm of the Shadow for centuries, and I can't really imagine that's going to do your soul any favors. But hey, the book takes pains to mention that some folks in Aldis, even those who really ought to know better, still make terrible decisions because they figure that they're careful enough to avoid the consequences so I say go for it.

Count Chocula posted:

I haven't read any Romantic Fantasy, but I assume The Prince is a Fantomas/Diabolik style handsome rogue and potential love interest?

In addition to chaos rhames pointing out that the Prince is a bit too willing to murder people who don't give him his cut or disobey his orders there's also the fact that he or she is a bit too willing to get into bed with the Lich King to really be considered a secretly decent person right off the bat, at least without a heaping dose of redemption, but the Prince being attractive and charming and someone you could consider a potential love interest (until you found out what they did for a living anyway) certainly wouldn't be out of tone.

unseenlibrarian
Jun 4, 2012

There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.
The real love interest is the obviously the Prince's rival the plays up the Robin Hood angle and wants to reform the guild into something more Leverage or Thorn-of-Camorr-y.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.
The redemption angle could work, too, especially with the aid of an attractive PC if the Prince were given a sympathetic reason to have slid into darkness. Like Lord Sayvin, he could perhaps be pulled back.

The Rose Knights immediately suggest "One of them is the Queen's bodyguard, probably a PC, cue romantic tension between the Queen and her bodyguard."

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015

Ratpick posted:

How would you stat God as a Final Boss in Super Console?

Well, let's take the typical Main Villain writeup and make him weak against Dark (and therefore resistant against every other element). His strategy would involve being all pacifist, only throwing around a bunch of harmless status effects. Then he shows his True Form and opens a can of Old Testament whoopass, scorching the battlefield with Flare, White (the ultimate Holy spell) and that huge fire sword he just pulled out of thin air. Also a healthy dose of Stone and Doom. And he can pull off an AoE physical attack involving a swarm of locusts.

Oh, and did I mention he's a giant burning bush?

Doresh fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Jul 28, 2015

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

Afterthought 11 is up and running at this location.

Bacchante posted:

Finally, subterranean trolls. These ones are almost interesting in that they were driven underground due to an apparent hatred of loud noises and sometimes like humans. The females are also apparently beautiful redheads? It quickly returns to form with the usual ‘hates everything, kill and eat’ nonsense.

Huh, I guess that's supposed to be a whole race of Grendels.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
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Forces of Hordes: Trollbloods



Slag Trolls are proof that trolls, in need, will eat anything. Specifically, they prefer metal, and they also metabolize powerful acids in order to dissolve even tempered steel. They are notoriously ornery, due to the pain of the metal shards that grow in their flesh, and their habit of spitting corrosive acid makes them very annoying to the foes of the trollbloods. They appeared in hostile mountainous and volcanic places and seem to prefer living near semi-active fumaroles and lava flows. Their diet has given them a reputation for stupidity, but other trolls admire their intestinal strength. The acids in their guts make them especially dangerous to warjacks, wolds and the undead. Their animus grants the touch of acid.



A Swamp Troll is a type of troll found in marshes and swamps, able to swallow a man whole. Their long, sticky tongues can strike at a long distance with accuracy, dragging their prey to them. They are happy to eat just about anything alive, of any size. They often accompany the Bloodsmeath and Fenn Marsh kriels, and until recently they were rarely seen outside their marshland homes. Now, however, they are frequently found serving trollblood warlocks, who value their surprising range. Their animus summons a protective swarm of flies.



The Troll Bouncer wields an oversized ball and chain and is generally heedless of its own safety. They are favored for their instinct to protect their kin, and many have become prominent in the united kriels. They wear heavy armor and a big shield along with their ball, wading into walls of enemies to send them toppling down. They are part of a long troll tradition of forming attachments with the trollkin that feed them. Some show a loyalty and protectiveness otherwise unusual in trolls, giving many kriels reason to pick them for training in the use of shields. They will gladly charge into danger, even pushing allies aside to take hits for them, and are often seen guarding important trollkin. Their animus knocks enemies around when they hurt allies.



The Winter Troll is a terror to Khadorans, Nyss and even Rhulfolk. They emerge from blizzards, hungry and violent, spewing frozen breath to cripple their victims and feast on them. The trollkin of the Scarsfell sometimes befriend these creatures, using them as potent allies. Now, they have been goaded from their remote lairs to head south. Instead of the quills common to trolls of warmer climates, they have thick fur to protect against the wind and cold that would normally kill anything. They harness the power of ice and snow in huge bursts that choke the enemy. Even touching them causes a backlash of cold so extreme it can paralyze the muscles. Their animus grants this radiating cold to their allies.



The Earthborn Dire Troll is a sign that Dhunia did, in fact, bless the dire trolls. They are believed by some to have been the first dire trolls, shaped from the stone by Dhunia herself. They certainly have a strong tie to her, with their skin rippling and changing as they move. Their skin hardens as they cross stone ground, but should they touch water, they gain strength and speed. Even more terrifying, they can dapat to imitate the power of their foes. When one charges a warjack, its fists grow as steely as the enemy's. They are the truest show of troll adapatibility, mimicing what they cannot destroy outright. Any dire troll is rare, but the earthborn were believed mythical until Hoarluk Doomshaper brought them out of the mountains. Their strength has proven invaluable to the united kriels, and few have the courage or strength to fight them. Some think their power is drawn from the vitality of their flesh, much like their regeneration - they just expanded on it so that their bodies react instantly to their needs in combat. Whatever the case, they have a power that surpasses any petty technology. Their animus gives some of their elemental trasnformative power to their allies.



Mulg the Ancient is reputedly the oldest and most fierce dire troll on aen. He is old enough to have seen the Orgoth, and he demansd homage from all trolls he meets. Even young dire trolls are meek before him, abandoning kills for his hunger. He had only limited interaction with the trollkin before he came down from the mountains. Envious of their runes of power, he demanded runes be carved into his flesh to show his many great deeds. He can focus his rage into these runes to stifle the power of enemy beasts. Hoarluk Doomshaper first recognized the common thread of Mulg in old folktales of the Cygnaran kriels, speaking of a walking piece of the mountain. Doomshaper became obsessed with finding Mulg for years, and in 603, he made his way into the Wyrmwall, stirring other trolls who followed him to observe how Mulg would treat him. They gathered when Doomshaper presented himself, and he startled them by invoking the traditional dire troll greeting ceremony, putting on a show of aggression and inviting Mulg to punch him. Mulg did, shattering his upper body and sending him flying. He laid still until he could mend his flesh, and though he coughed blood, he did speak to Mulg. No creature had ever survived such a hit, and Mulg was so impressed that he named Doomshaper 'Krol.' They shared their blood, and since then, Mulg has considered Krol to be his tiny brother. The precise meaning of the name is disputed, but it probably means 'not food,' a profound abstract concept for dire trolls, who will eat anything. Mulg also gave Hoarluk such respect through this that the dire trolls obeyed him. Mulg has stayed out of the wars, prowling for the food he hungers for constantly. However, in recent months he's felt the call of his blood bond to Krol, hearing the shaman's voice in his mind. When humans captured and locked Krol away, Mulg was enraged, leading the dire trolls to free him. Anything living that did not flee from them was grabbed and eaten alive. Mulg's animus blocks enemy spells.

Next time: Armies of the kin

inklesspen
Oct 17, 2007

Here I am coming, with the good news of me, and you hate it. You can think only of the bell and how much I have it, and you are never the goose. I will run around with my bell as much as I want and you will make despair.
Buglord

Blasphemeral posted:

Hey, everybody. I hope this is the right thread to ask:
Has anyone heard anything about the Mouse Guard second edition that was supposed to come out in February? And then again in April? I've not been able to find any news on it, and while I'm really interested in trying out Mouse Guard, I'm not gonna drop the high-premium to get a first edition handbook just to have second edition come out all new, shiny, and revised right afterward.

That would normally be the Indie RPG thread if it wasn't locked for archiving, or probably the monthly chat thread. Luke posted an unboxing preview in April, but that was just a proof copy, not something from a full run. As far as I can tell, he hasn't posted a new release date yet.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
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It also almost certainly won't be on PDF, because Luke Crane hates PDFs.

inklesspen
Oct 17, 2007

Here I am coming, with the good news of me, and you hate it. You can think only of the bell and how much I have it, and you are never the goose. I will run around with my bell as much as I want and you will make despair.
Buglord
The first edition was PDF, though (as was Torchbearer).

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
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Forces of Hordes: Trollbloods



The trollkin who fight are from many kriels and cultures, and they are often very different in appearance. However, all of them are determined warriors who embrace stoic defense. The trollkin who can claim the title champion are the ones everyone aspires to be, the living heroes that will be remembered in the krielstones. Unlike other warriors, who hope to return to their peaceful lives, the champions fight until they are physically incapable of doing so, and only then become advisors to the chiefs. In the past, wargbands were warriors under a chief for a specific cause, staying together generally only a few years. Modern warriors, however, will follow a charismatic and succesful chief for glory rather than a cause. Most commonly, though, warriors fight to protect their kin. Almost every adult trollkin has had to fight at least once or twice. Their supply lines are tenuous, and they often go hungry. Most food is given to the trolls, and even the leaders eat no better than the main force. Individuals of skill like elemental sorcerers and shamans sometimes join the warriors in battle, helping a great deal with morale. The only real divide between warriors is between the more traditional types and those that have embraced modern weapons and tactics. For generations, most trollkin warriors have been trained by their elders and wield ancestral weapons, but that's harder and harder to do these days. The leaders of the united kriels have embraced modern methods, even techniques from the Iron Kingdoms armies. They produce warriors faster, and to a high standard. These warriors take orders better, too, and are more disciplined. Traditional warriors, however, like the champions have their own codes of honor and behavior that can conflict with this. Still, even the most modernized warriors are deeply tied to trollkin tradition, and ritual tattoos are common using toxic pigments that resist the skin's ability to restore itself. Every trollkin values individual freedom, even the most disciplined ones, and this is one of their greatest motivators as a race: the chance for all of their kith and kin to live as they choose.





Kriel Warriors are sometimes led by a Kriel Warrior Standard and Piper. The kriel is the heart of trollkin life, and each has their own customs, often expressed in their unique quitari patterns and their music. When the warriors had to battle, they march to their kriel music beneath a great banner of their families. Each kriel records in stone, but also cloth, because stone is not easily transported. Banners are potent symbols of their histry and what they fight for, and a standard is topped by a burning brazier, visible from a great distance. The sight of the banner inspires the trollkin to fight despite great wounds. Pipers are the preferred musicians of the trollkin, as they have naturally large lungs. Their songs coordinate long journeys and keep the warriors cheerful even on forced marches, while their more mournful tunes and dirges remind all of the sacrifices of the dead.



Kriel Warrior Caber Throwers come out of trollkin entertainment. Trollkin games were often evolved from ritualized combat training, and hurling cabers has proven as surprisingly powerful tool in combat, if crude. Cabers were originally wood, but the Gnarls kriels took it to the extreme, using stone columns of immense size. They're backbreaking but well worth it on the battlefield - they crush just about anything. Only particularly strong trollkin of immense endurance can even carry these weapons to battle.



Pyg Burrowers have been trained after the success of giving the pygs rifles. They are loyal and skilled earthmovers and sappers, mixing their endurance as trollbloods with their small size to be excellent diggers. No sane creature would follow them in their quickly collapsing tunnels, of course. But few sights are so chocking to the foe as a group of pygs exploding out of the ground. They might look funny, but they are a real threat, wielding huge-bore slug guns as well as mining tools. They love attacking, knowing that if they can't kill the foe immediately, they're probably dead. Burrowing pygs must be equipped, though, which has led to trollkin raiding for powder and guns as well as buying from black markets and mercenaries. It was on these raids that they found the slug guns, which have been perfect for the pygs, designed to penetrate armor at short range.



A Stone Scribe Elder will sometimes lead the stone scribes. They have spent decades on pilgrimages to the important krielstones, studying the tales and learning from the shamans. They understand the heroism that powers a krielstone. Their respect for runecarving and history is vital, as they are not just historians, but sacred priests. The shape of their runesm ust convey the spirit of those they are writing about if their power is to be captured. Their scrolls and rubbings are endless, and they are adept at tuning krielstones to their purposes, drawing on the echoes of ancient heroes.



Thumper Crews use carronade guns given to Madrak Ironhide by King Leto. They require less powder than normal cannons, making them ideal for trollkin, who don't have much powder. They weren't originally intended for land use, but they've been vital to the trollkin against the skorne...and against Cygnar, who faced them when fighting the Thornwood kriels. The trollkin have named the guns thumpers for the noise they make when fired. Their small size makes them relatively easy to transport, so they're well suited for rapid reployments and the ambushes favored by the united kriels. Fighting smoothly as a crew is not natural to the trollkin, though, and they need volunteers willing to endure the training and drills of being on a thumper crew. Still, the undeniable results have led to a steady stream of volunteers and requests for thumper backup.

Next time: the Blue Man Group goes to war

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
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Forces of Hordes: Trollbloods



Skaldi Bonehammer can be found leading the champions. He is an ally, rival and drinking buddy of Borka Kegslayer, and he hungs for both glory and vengeance on humans. He's smashed many skulls with his giant hammer and his presence is inspiring to other trollkin. In his youth, he traveled the Scrasfell, fighting the human tribes there, the Khadorans and other kriels. He took any excuse to fight. When Kegslayer joined Madrak Ironhide, Skaldi did not. However, in time, he heard about the battles in the south, and eventually, he realized that it was his chance for true glory. In order to prove himself Borka's equal, he took his warband south to seek out the greatest battles.



The Trollkin Fennblades meet their enemies as they charge, waiting for the fools to get close. They duck lances or sidestep attacks and cut down the enemy without a blink. During the first Trollkin Wars, the kriels of Fenn Marsh, near Mercir, banded together for safety. They never got the fame of the Thornwood battles, but they were potent. As stories of their victory spread, other kriels took similar methods, using the name Fennblades to honor the Marsh kriels. The hooked sword they use is the preferred weapon in the Fenn Marsh, and it is difficult to master, even for the strongest trollkin. The techniques take long drilling and more discipline and coordination than most trollkin usually have, making them ideal for the more cohesive forces the modern leaders want.



A Trollkin Fennblade Officer and Drummer sometimes lead the Fennblades. A kithkar, as these officers are known, must first prove their courage in the face of certain death. Those they lead know they will fight in the bloodiest parts of the battle without worry for their own safety. Under such a kithkar, they are a force of nature, unstoppable and immovable. The drummer keeps them in step, and they can steel themselves against any assault without worry. Their countercharges are enough to terrify anyone.



Trollkin Long Riders ride into battle atop massive bison. Few things can match their power and momentum in a charge, shattering enemy lines with ease. The southern kriels have no long cavalry traditions, given their wooded homes, but in the open areas of Khador, the trollkin have long rode the bisons, as horses are uneasy in the presence of trolls. The most famous of the battle riders, the long riders are notable for their endurance, sleeping and eating in the saddle. They dismount only when they must, and it is said that their moods and those of their mount are linked - if one is angry, so is the other.



Trollkin Runeshapers are terrifying sorcerers, able to manipulate stone. They command rocks to rise and fly at their foes, and unlike sorcerous humans, they're easily recognized at birth because all are born albino. They soon master their inborn power, and in larger kriels, the elders teach them directly. More aggressive sorcerers become great warriors, using their magic to destroy their foes. While their power resembles druidism, they have no affinity for the blackclads, and the religious among them claim their sorcery comes from Dhunia, not the Devourer Wurm, and is tied to the seasons. Earth power is of spring, fire is summer, ice and water are winter and storms are autumn. Runeshapers aren't priests, but many believe their power is a sign that they are hands of Dhunia's wrath. Others ignore spiritualism in favor of the raw power of their runes.



Trollkin Scouts are wilderness experts, forced to adapt to life in remote kriels. They hail from the Wyrmwalls, Marchfells and other backwoods kriels, hunting, trapping and tracking. They learn to avoid the monsters that plague their homes, and every trollkin from these regions becomes an expert woodsman just to survive. For centuries, they rarely interacted with their kith and kin in other places, but isolation cannot be afforded now. They have answered Ironhide's call for solidarity, serving as scouts in the warbands of the united kriels. They are expert hunters and trackers, able to move unseen in any terrain, and they are natural guerilla fighters. They ambush foes quickly even in impassable terrain, hurling axes with deadly accuracy before they engage in close combat. They may seem primitive, but their skills must be respected.



Trollkin Sluggers are the best disciplined of all the trolkin. Many are veterans of the Cygnaran Army or trained by them. They fight in small bands, unleashing hails of bullets from their sluggers to clear firing lines for other trollkin. They cut down infantry and warbeasts alike with these massive, chain-fed cannons, which were originally meant to protect entrenched positions. They were acquired several years ago as surplus Cygnaran arms, and they were originally used to defend villages, but as battle came more often, they found new uses. Humans can barely lift the guns unassisted, but trollkin wield them with alarming ease, and while they mount some on top of dire trolls, they carry others. The first sluggers were gained by trade, but Cygnar began to restrict their sale, and so the trollbloods stockpile them at every opportunity, as they are vital to new trollkin tactics.

Next time: EAT THE BABIES

Forums Terrorist
Dec 8, 2011

Kai Tave posted:

The thing is, and I say this not to dissuade you from doing this, I find that it's far, far more common for tabletop RPGs to take this exact approach already. Roleplaying games are littered with ostensibly good organizations which turn out to be terrible and evil and corrupt, their goodness nothing but a facade, to the point where it feels like a lot of gamers simply can't accept the idea of anything being genuinely noble and decent without trying to invert it and make everything cynical and grimdark. To borrow an example from JRPGs "The church...is secretly evil! And also god is the final boss" is such a cliche by this point that I feel like Blue Rose is more daring and original for presenting a fantasy kingdom that stands for justice and fairness and equality and actually means it.

This seems to be a theme in loving everything: "oh no our sometimes-secret orginisation/society/whatever is secretly evil/undermined by another even more secret conspiracy"

I think it's basically a reflection of modern lack of faith in institutions and authority in general, regardless of whether that authority is worth respecting.

E: this might be relevant

https://vimeo.com/12234635

Forums Terrorist fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Jul 29, 2015

Davin Valkri
Apr 8, 2011

Maybe you're weighing the moral pros and cons but let me assure you that OH MY GOD
SHOOT ME IN THE GODDAMNED FACE
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?!

Forums Terrorist posted:

This seems to be a theme in loving everything: "oh no our sometimes-secret orginisation/society/whatever is secretly evil/undermined by another even more secret conspiracy"

I think it's basically a reflection of modern lack of faith in institutions and authority in general, regardless of whether that authority is worth respecting.

How do people resolve this in universes where concepts like Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, etc., have literal definitions? It seems that themes about corruption of institutions and "the only morals one can trust are one's own" should be more relevant in cases where there isn't a factual god you can appeal to about the Rightness of whatever, which places like Blue Rose and baseline D&D seem to embody.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Davin Valkri posted:

How do people resolve this in universes where concepts like Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, etc., have literal definitions? It seems that themes about corruption of institutions and "the only morals one can trust are one's own" should be more relevant in cases where there isn't a factual god you can appeal to about the Rightness of whatever, which places like Blue Rose and baseline D&D seem to embody.

D&D has never seemed to really address what the hell Detect Evil would do to a world. It's just a convenient radar for who you're allowed to murder, usually.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

Davin Valkri posted:

How do people resolve this in universes where concepts like Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, etc., have literal definitions? It seems that themes about corruption of institutions and "the only morals one can trust are one's own" should be more relevant in cases where there isn't a factual god you can appeal to about the Rightness of whatever, which places like Blue Rose and baseline D&D seem to embody.

Perhaps the concept of a literal and unambiguous good is so alien to the human experience that we feel a need to subvert that. Something something Pleasantville and the uncanny valley.

Night10194 posted:

D&D has never seemed to really address what the hell Detect Evil would do to a world. It's just a convenient radar for who you're allowed to murder, usually.

I don't know how or why alignment turned into a prescription for behavior/personality, but when it was literally just "pick one, you're absolutely free to murder the other two" it worked quite well.

Forums Terrorist
Dec 8, 2011

Davin Valkri posted:

How do people resolve this in universes where concepts like Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, etc., have literal definitions? It seems that themes about corruption of institutions and "the only morals one can trust are one's own" should be more relevant in cases where there isn't a factual god you can appeal to about the Rightness of whatever, which places like Blue Rose and baseline D&D seem to embody.

They resolve it by taking their biases with them, usually, because people are people no matter what you play

I could run RaHoWa and force you and a couple of other TG posters to play it at gunpoint; that doesn't mean you wouldn't take your own political opinions and general not-horribleness with you into a game where every terrible /pol/ stereotype is an iron law.

Davin Valkri
Apr 8, 2011

Maybe you're weighing the moral pros and cons but let me assure you that OH MY GOD
SHOOT ME IN THE GODDAMNED FACE
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?!

Forums Terrorist posted:

They resolve it by taking their biases with them, usually, because people are people no matter what you play

I mean more like, if you wanted to play a game where cynicism and doubt are the only truths, why would you use a system and world that hew in the exact opposite direction? It seems that the likes of GRUNT, Night's Black Agents, or even Kriegszeppelin Valkyrie (if run by a scholar of interwar political movements, with all players agreeing) would be better fits for those themes than "there is literally a god of justice and a god of evil" D&D, or worlds and systems designed on that template.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

Davin Valkri posted:

I mean more like, if you wanted to play a game where cynicism and doubt are the only truths, why would you use a system and world that hew in the exact opposite direction? It seems that the likes of GRUNT, Night's Black Agents, or even Kriegszeppelin Valkyrie (if run by a scholar of interwar political movements, with all players agreeing) would be better fits for those themes than "there is literally a god of justice and a god of evil" D&D, or worlds and systems designed on that template.

That probably has something to do with sunk cost fallacy and wooden-headedness with regards to wanting to switch away from the d20 engine.

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.


Grimey Drawer
Probably the same reason people house rule the Hell out of D&D or Palladium. It's available, some of the systems are appealing, and the rest can be ignored or forgotten with a bit of spackle.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 18, 2013



Night10194 posted:

D&D has never seemed to really address what the hell Detect Evil would do to a world. It's just a convenient radar for who you're allowed to murder, usually.

D&D actually does have an answer for that. Detect Evil despite the name doesn't detect everyone who is evil. It detects emanations of evil, which is completely unhelpful because it is completely undefined save for "sometimes evil magic items". It was however later clarified to include clerics of evil gods, demons, undead, and antipaladins. So generally commander cobra type self professed evil types.

3rd edition though added evil aligned folks of at least 5th level, which kinda does make the whole thing fall apart if your world is in any way high level. The only way it really works is if after hitting level 5 most people who are evil have to go through some sort of self reflect and either redeem themselves or decide to join team evil and eat puppies professionally. Which I guess does help with the whole guiltless slaughter thing, if evil mcwarlord chose this life after learning he was evil.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

The funniest part is being Evil is objectively a terrible idea because the Evil gods are A: Assholes and B: Won't have your back when you die. I played a half-demon Priestess of Bane in an Evil Campaign once who eventually ended up breaking with her God and her alignment solely because she learned that yeah, everyone of her alignment goes to Hell and Bane ain't gonna do poo poo to stop that. She ended up Lawful Neutral solely because once you're a high enough level Cleric you kinda get a sense of where poo poo is going in D&D land.

Also note polytheism has never really had evil gods. It has evil forces, demons, etc, but those things are propitiated at best, not worshiped.

FMguru
Sep 10, 2003

peed on;
sexually

Night10194 posted:

D&D has never seemed to really address what the hell Detect Evil would do to a world. It's just a convenient radar for who you're allowed to murder, usually.
Most early versions of D&D/AD&D had a "Know Alignment" spell (Cleric, level 2). It seemed to disappear with 3E (one of WotC's better decisions).

There was at least one effort to integrate magic that detects alignments with instruments of social control in a published D&D setting. The backstory for Dragonlance has the powerful continent-spanning Lawful Good empire go full metal purify-the-unclean and go around casting it on people in order to identify and "deal with" evil. Cue pogroms, purges, ethnic cleansing, and genocides, all with the sanctimony cranked up to ten. The Gods dropped a big-rear end meteor on the capital of Istar for that little trick. The continent got to deal with several decades of medieval Mad Max style survivalism, a bunch of new seas and coastlines, and a giant swirling Maelstrom hundreds of miles across in the ocean where Istar used to stand.

Comrade Koba
Jul 2, 2007

Terrible Opinions posted:

D&D actually does have an answer for that. Detect Evil despite the name doesn't detect everyone who is evil. It detects emanations of evil, which is completely unhelpful because it is completely undefined save for "sometimes evil magic items". It was however later clarified to include clerics of evil gods, demons, undead, and antipaladins. So generally commander cobra type self professed evil types.

I used to houserule this to only make it apply to magical or extraplanar evil. That way casting Detect Evil wouldn't help you catch a murderer or find out who's a villain, unless he/she is an outsider in disguise or possessed by something. It won't work at all on Bob the Peasant who occasionally beats his wife and steals his neighbors grain.


Night10194 posted:

The funniest part is being Evil is objectively a terrible idea because the Evil gods are A: Assholes and B: Won't have your back when you die.

So true.

What's funny is that it wouldn't take much effort to make evil faiths at least somewhat believable in your standard D&D setting. I could understand someone following an evil deity if it watched your back and granted you awesome powers as long as you did as you were told and kept loving poo poo up for people. Also when you die you're totally going to be turned into a badass barbed devil or whatever.

Comrade Koba fucked around with this message at 09:23 on Jul 29, 2015

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



I remember somewhere reading in an official book that, basically, Detect Evil won't do poo poo to a fighter who is chaotic evil but is just having a pint of ale and a plate of stew at the tavern. He's not actively emanating evil in that moment. Now if he was a blackguard carrying six necromantic magical objects in his trousers, yes, that would show up. Or perhaps if he was hiding in a closet waiting for you to walk past so he could drive a glaive-guisarme into your rear end and kill you.

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012
Fallen Rib
One thing I appreciate about Eberron is that while it has a pantheon that resembled the typical D&D assembly of "good gods on one side, evil gods on the other" that the "evil" gods weren't just completely shunned by the common man on the street like some unthinkable abomination that only frothing maniacs would dare contemplate. You might openly praise the Sovereign Host but quietly call upon and/or placate the others because despite being ostensibly "evil" deities they aren't all the gods of puppy-kicking rapemurder but have portfolios broad enough that the ordinary person might invoke the Fury for artistic inspiration (or to help them take revenge on someone who's wronged them) or make an offering to the Devourer before embarking on a sea voyage just in case or own a secret charm to the Traveler in the hopes that a bit of good luck will come their way. On the surface it resembles the classic our-team-versus-their-team dynamic but things aren't entirely as cut and dried as all that.

Cooked Auto
Aug 4, 2007

If you will not serve in combat, you will serve on the firing line!




Bacchante posted:

Only in the case of Borbytingarna Trolls, the first of three types, the latter qualifier doesn’t even apply. They aren’t petrified by sunlight, at least, but will apparently attempt to kill anything they meet that is not an opposite-gendered troll.

So wait, the author uses the Swedish folklore term for changelings and then completely fucks it up? :psyduck:
If that's the case it's supposed to be Bortbytingarna Trolls.

Comrade Koba
Jul 2, 2007

Cooked Auto posted:

So wait, the author uses the Swedish folklore term for changelings and then completely fucks it up? :psyduck:
If that's the case it's supposed to be Bortbytingarna Trolls.

Wouldn't be the first game to just pick random words out of a Scandinavian dictionary to find "cool" names for their pseudo-norse setting.

The map in the not-Vikings supplement for Hârnworld has a lot of the village and city names just pulled directly from a map of Sweden. :v: :sweden:

Hedningen
May 4, 2013

Enough sideburns to last a lifetime.

Comrade Koba posted:

Wouldn't be the first game to just pick random words out of a Scandinavian dictionary to find "cool" names for their pseudo-norse setting.

The map in the not-Vikings supplement for Hârnworld has a lot of the village and city names just pulled directly from a map of Sweden. :v: :sweden:

Or 7th Sea's Vestmanaeyjar, named after an island that was named after Irish slaves, as well as situating them in the north and thus making them nonsensically "West-men" who are west of very few things.

Scandinavian names in RPGs are hilarious to anyone with more than a passing familiarity with the history and culture. I suppose that could be expanded to most cribbed cultural content, but the recent Norsploitation trend just means we get a little more to play with.

Ratpick
Oct 9, 2012

And no one ate dinner that night.
Hilarious as most RPG references to Scandinavia are, you guys at least get some references. Finland doesn't even register high enough on RPG designers' radars to have a single idea stolen from our myth and culture.

Okay, I lie, because at least two deities from Forgotten Realms, namely Mielikki and Loviatar, are cribbed directly from Finnish myth. Which is made all the more funny by the fact that the books give official pronunciations for those two deities, and while the pronunciation given for Loviatar is a good approximation for how an English speaker might pronounce that name, the pronunciation provided for Mielikki is so far off it's hilarious.

But besides that, there's never a not-Finland in any RPG setting, although given the treatment that Scandinavia gets in most fantasy settings ("They're just a bunch of vikings who live in a land filled with trolls and giants") I can't even imagine what a fantasy analogue Finland would look like.

Comrade Koba
Jul 2, 2007

Ratpick posted:

I can't even imagine what a fantasy analogue Finland would look like.

unseenlibrarian
Jun 4, 2012

There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.
Hey, the Runequest 3rd version Runequest: Vikings featured Finns!

...Almost exclusively as eccentric Sami wizards who make everything worse by keeping winds knotted up in leather strings.

Lemniscate Blue
Apr 21, 2006

Here we go again.

Kai Tave posted:

One thing I appreciate about Eberron is that while it has a pantheon that resembled the typical D&D assembly of "good gods on one side, evil gods on the other" that the "evil" gods weren't just completely shunned by the common man on the street like some unthinkable abomination that only frothing maniacs would dare contemplate. You might openly praise the Sovereign Host but quietly call upon and/or placate the others because despite being ostensibly "evil" deities they aren't all the gods of puppy-kicking rapemurder but have portfolios broad enough that the ordinary person might invoke the Fury for artistic inspiration (or to help them take revenge on someone who's wronged them) or make an offering to the Devourer before embarking on a sea voyage just in case or own a secret charm to the Traveler in the hopes that a bit of good luck will come their way. On the surface it resembles the classic our-team-versus-their-team dynamic but things aren't entirely as cut and dried as all that.

I liked the D&D 4e interpretation of Bane, god of War, along these lines too. Bane was evil but didn't particularly care if his worshippers were, he just wanted them to be as badass as possible at war. Presumably so that if/when they needed to go up against the Primordials again they'd have a badass army of souls, Valhalla-like.

Ratpick
Oct 9, 2012

And no one ate dinner that night.

I said fantasy.

Hedningen
May 4, 2013

Enough sideburns to last a lifetime.
Depending on what they choose to show as "Finnish", I'd live to see more pseudo-Finland nods in games, as all the Finns I've hung with have been wonderful people who can also drink me under the table and then demand that I go sit in a really hot room for cultural reasons. Also, the Kalevala is pretty awesome, and Elmer Diktonius is the best drunken Communist poet I've had the chance to read. Fun fact: he went drinking with Brecht a lot while the latter was in exile in the land of birch and saunas to the point it influenced some of his work, especially in the film industry.

Honestly, I think the reason Finns get neglected is because they're in a weird place between Russia and Scandinavia, so they get slotted into one or the other. Just once, I'd like to see some representation of a nation trapped between two expansionist jerks that still manages to retain their own customs and a unique identity that isn't just "trying to be independent". We need more fantasy Finns, especially with the awesome fish-jawbone instrument magic and singing wizard fights.

Ratpick
Oct 9, 2012

And no one ate dinner that night.

unseenlibrarian posted:

Hey, the Runequest 3rd version Runequest: Vikings featured Finns!

...Almost exclusively as eccentric Sami wizards who make everything worse by keeping winds knotted up in leather strings.

Given the source material, that is definitely an iconic depiction of Finns/Sami: the Norse didn't really distinguish between them and in the Sagas they had a reputation for being scary powerful wizards and witches.


Hedningen posted:

Depending on what they choose to show as "Finnish", I'd live to see more pseudo-Finland nods in games, as all the Finns I've hung with have been wonderful people who can also drink me under the table and then demand that I go sit in a really hot room for cultural reasons. Also, the Kalevala is pretty awesome, and Elmer Diktonius is the best drunken Communist poet I've had the chance to read. Fun fact: he went drinking with Brecht a lot while the latter was in exile in the land of birch and saunas to the point it influenced some of his work, especially in the film industry.

Honestly, I think the reason Finns get neglected is because they're in a weird place between Russia and Scandinavia, so they get slotted into one or the other. Just once, I'd like to see some representation of a nation trapped between two expansionist jerks that still manages to retain their own customs and a unique identity that isn't just "trying to be independent". We need more fantasy Finns, especially with the awesome fish-jawbone instrument magic and singing wizard fights.

Yeah, Finnish myth is filled to the brim with cool gameable material, the most important of which (singing wizard duels) you already touched upon.

e: Also, the sauna is our greatest invention and I'll hear nothing against it. :colbert:

Bacchante
May 2, 2012

Friends don't let friends do sarcasm.

Cooked Auto posted:

So wait, the author uses the Swedish folklore term for changelings and then completely fucks it up? :psyduck:
If that's the case it's supposed to be Bortbytingarna Trolls.

Yeah, I just copied verbatim from the PDF for that. So yes, it's spelt wrong. There's even a footnote I glazed over which claims that all the races were drawn from European folklore so that is almost certainly where they got it from.

Comrade Koba
Jul 2, 2007

Hedningen posted:

Depending on what they choose to show as "Finnish", I'd live to see more pseudo-Finland nods in games

Not a tabletop RPG, but there's always The Unreal World.

Now you, too, can enjoy the authentic Finnish experience of getting food poisoning from eating raw meat and slowly dying from an infected leg wound in a dark, snow-covered forest. :v:

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003

La morte non ha sesso

gradenko_2000 posted:

Perhaps the concept of a literal and unambiguous good is so alien to the human experience that we feel a need to subvert that. Something something Pleasantville and the uncanny valley.


I don't know how or why alignment turned into a prescription for behavior/personality, but when it was literally just "pick one, you're absolutely free to murder the other two" it worked quite well.
AD&D 1st edition, I believe. Some versions of Basic devoted a page to explaining what G/N/C mean for PCs, but Chaotic didn't mean evil.

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Hedningen
May 4, 2013

Enough sideburns to last a lifetime.

Ratpick posted:

Yeah, Finnish myth is filled to the brim with cool gameable material, the most important of which (singing wizard duels) you already touched upon.

e: Also, the sauna is our greatest invention and I'll hear nothing against it. :colbert:
Hell, Finnish myth should already be a part of traditional fantasy - Tolkien loved the Kalevala, straight-up lifting a ton of it for his mythic cycles. My wife knew Túrin from his work and was explaining it to me, and I had to keep insisting she was talking about Finnish poetry. Yet nobody acknowledges the Finns.

I agree that the sauna is good. Again coming to Brecht: a huge portion of his time in Finland was spent in child-like wonder at how amazing it was, which I found hilarious when reading through his journals. More people need to experience that joy, and more games need to accurately model sauna mechanics.

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