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Sad King Billy posted:One thing about Genesis that wasn't mentioned in the review, I think Robert Holmes did a lot of rewrites and fleshing out of the story, that tale is as much his as Terry Nations. That's a rumour based on it being better than his last two efforts, I've never seen any evidence of it other than people just stating it as fact CobiWann posted:Parody is fine, but not if it becomes a bit mean spirited, which is why The One Doctor is an audio classic Or it would be if it was funny
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Jul 29, 2015 13:08
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The_Doctor posted:Genesis is so genuinely amazing at what it does, portraying the last days of a long, dirty war of attrition, where the sides are both one step from fighting with sharp sticks. It's a remarkably bleak and brutal look at the horrors of war, and by making both sides ostensibly human (-looking, anyway) it brings home the effects of war and fascism in an uncomfortably bright light, and for children no less. Compound this with the then-contemporary reality that nuclear war might break out at any time, makes this all the more terrifying. Genesis feels like a different take on war than the "flash bang, then the Aftermath" of The Daleks. The Vietnam War had been in quagmire for ages by this point (Part 6 of Genesis aired just two weeks before the Fall of Saigon) and it was obvious that, while the possibility of high-tech war between superpowers hung over everyone, drawn-out brutal conflicts on the ground were still very much a reality even for first world nations. The destructive health effects of chemicals like Agent Orange were already being seen, and environmental awareness was high enough that people were aware they would be long-lasting. In Genesis, remember, they say the mutations are caused by the "chemical weapons used early in the war", rather than fallout radiation as in The Daleks. MrL_JaKiri posted:That's a rumour based on it being better than his last two efforts, I've never seen any evidence of it other than people just stating it as fact That, and his extreme rewrites of other serials, most famously Pyramids of Mars and The Brain of Morbius.
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Jul 29, 2015 16:59
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MrL_JaKiri posted:That's a rumour based on it being better than his last two efforts, I've never seen any evidence of it other than people just stating it as fact Going by Terry's track record, it is very plausible.
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Jul 29, 2015 17:42
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Philip Hinchcliffe, in Robert Holmes' biography posted:...the scripts [Terry Nation] gave us were very good first-draft scripts, with good action sequences, and stuff like that in them. But there were also a number of sillinesses in Terry’s scripts, which had to be taken out. And sometimes the dialogue left a bit to be desired ... I think Bob would have tried to make changes that would reflect the character of the new Doctor. I think Bob rewrote some of the key speeches for the Doctor, and spruced up a few of the other bits of dialogue. So there was a bit of traditional script editing that went on with those scripts ... it wasn’t a set of scripts that had to be majorly rewritten or overhauled. They just had to be tweaked a bit, improved. That's probably as close as we'll come to knowing the exact extent of who did what on the Genesis scripts.
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Jul 29, 2015 19:31
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Less known is that Robert Holmes was so nervous about writing his first Doctor Who story that Terry Nation decided to mentor him by replacing the script,"The Monster that Terrifies Children" with a ripping little tale of his own called The Space Pirates.
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Jul 30, 2015 01:17
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Jul 30, 2015 01:24
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PriorMarcus posted:Yeah... Season Nine spoiler: Its a shame Moffat is revisiting the events of that episode and changing them as the big plot hook for this season. Of course Eccelston is canon because he's wonderful.
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Jul 30, 2015 04:10
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Dr. Gene Dango MD posted:Troughton did not leave Gallifrey to hide the hand of Omega, he ran away because he was bored and had a whole universe to explore. Genesis of The Daleks will always happen the way it did. Now I'm not going to say that canon isn't what you make it, but you take Hartnell out of the picture and we's gonna have words. 
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Jul 30, 2015 04:38
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Dr. Gene Dango MD posted:It's stuff like this makes me canonically consider the new show fan fiction. Nerds just can't leave well enough alone. And I know canon doesn't matter, I get that, especially with this show. But at the same time every time the It's a rumour, Moffat is a huge canon nerd and the thought of retconning a classic series episode out of existence would probably make him vomit. For all his time travel bullshit the closest he's ever come to saying "something you saw on the show has been changed and now never happened" was saving Gallifrey instead of burning it.
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Jul 30, 2015 05:07
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After The War posted:Now I'm not going to say that canon isn't what you make it, but you take Hartnell out of the picture and we's gonna have words. 2house2fly posted:It's a rumour, Moffat is a huge canon nerd and the thought of retconning a classic series episode out of existence would probably make him vomit. For all his time travel bullshit the closest he's ever come to saying "something you saw on the show has been changed and now never happened" was saving Gallifrey instead of burning it. Again, this is just a tv show and if you enjoy Moffats metaplot retrojections then more power to you.
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Jul 30, 2015 06:34
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Dr. Gene Dango MD posted:No sir, of all my versions of Who canon the most pristine one is Hartnell, Troughton and Pertwee. I've got one that includes every episode and audio drama, which I call the "gently caress it nothing matters" 'verse. In it several versions of the Doctor narrowly avoid meeting each other in Pompeii and on the Titanic, and Napoleon is a very busy man. Nonsense, the melding of their timelines would obviously affect their memories, so the Doctor can't recall what his future self did. Like how Tennant met the Fifth Doctor
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Jul 30, 2015 08:13
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Can we not discuss possible spoiler stuff in the main thread please?
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Jul 30, 2015 09:08
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The_Doctor posted:Can we not discuss possible spoiler stuff in the main thread please? drat it, I was just going to talk about the surprise villains in Terror of the Zygons...
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Jul 30, 2015 09:39
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Dr. Gene Dango MD posted:taken responsibility for Hartnell picking that TARDIS As you note yourself later in your post, the only reason he's choosing the wrong TARDIS is because The Great Intelligence somehow misdirected him away from the one he originally chose in the uninvaded timeline. All Clara does is nudge him back the way he originally went and set things back on track the way they always happened, she doesn't make the decision for him.
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Jul 30, 2015 09:41
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Jerusalem posted:As you note yourself later in your post, the only reason he's choosing the wrong TARDIS is because The Great Intelligence somehow misdirected him away from the one he originally chose in the uninvaded timeline. All Clara does is nudge him back the way he originally went and set things back on track the way they always happened, she doesn't make the decision for him. I don't think this is true.
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Jul 30, 2015 11:38
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PriorMarcus posted:I don't think this is true. The Great Intelligence jumps into the scar left behind by the Doctor's final death for the express purpose of going back through all his lives and ruining everything he did at every point in his life (backwards) for the pure satisfaction of ruining the Doctor's lives in the same way the Doctor has foiled every effort of the Great Intelligence to take on true physical form and gain power. Clara then jumps in to go back through and undo all the damage the GI has done, and we see exactly the same scenes where the GI was present, only now the GI is gone (having burned out and died in the process, something it knew would happen but thought was a price worth paying) and explicitly replaced by Clara, who ensures things go the way they were meant to go. While we never see the GI ensuring the Doctor gets into the wrong TARDIS, everything suggests that Clara is going through undoing his damage. It would make no sense at all if the story of,"Clara goes into the Doctor's personal timeline and fixes the damage done by the Great Intelligence" also included a random scene of,"Also the Doctor always would have taken the wrong TARDIS, but Clara was the one who made him take the right one all along." Now there are certainly problems with Name being pretty muddied and easy to interpret in a number of different ways, not helped by the limitations of insertions into old low-quality video stock of the classic series, but I don't at all buy into the idea that Moffat was trying to say that Clara was the one responsible for the Doctor picking that TARDIS. He picked that TARDIS, the GI went back and affected something subtly enough so that the Doctor chose another, then Clara overwrote that by setting things back the way they were originally. She's not the instigator of the event/reason behind the choice, she's the one who cleaned up the mess some rear end in a top hat made, so things were back the way they were supposed to be.
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Jul 30, 2015 11:53
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Basically Name Of The Doctor has a villain who wants to retcon a bunch of previous episodes so they never happened.
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Jul 30, 2015 12:26
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BottledBodhisvata posted:Nonsense, the melding of their timelines would obviously affect their memories, so the Doctor can't recall what his future self did. Like how Tennant met the Fifth Doctor 1. All the Docs appearing in the center of an event which before this episode was LOCKED OFF forever and ever. Now people can just waltz in and out. 2. The fact that the device which enabled his plan being discovered in that episode. How could 9-11 be working on the calculations for hundreds of years when the very thing that would allow him to do it was just discovered? Not to mention it seemed like the last thing on his mind would be Gallifrey after the war. Also Hartnell and Troughton were Time Lord super criminals and probably would not want to go back. 3. The "End" of the time war being the Daleks shooting themselves is some Loony Toons crap. This is the Time War, THE Time War, and we're suppose to believe that at that point literally every single Dalek ship was at Gallifrey and every one got destroyed? That the only base of power the Time Lords had was Gallifrey? And even if all that made total sense, my problem with it is really a character one. The Time War was the only thing in the modern series which added to the mystery of the character, the universe and the show. It was suppose to be inconceivable, and now it's a BBC set, one planet and one fleet. Jerusalem posted:only now the GI is gone (having burned out and died in the process, something it knew would happen but thought was a price worth paying) and explicitly replaced by Clara, who ensures things go the way they were meant to go. Dr. Gene Dango MD fucked around with this message at 13:23 on Jul 30, 2015 |
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Jul 30, 2015 12:56
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And now it's not locked, so they could get there. 's pretty simple.
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Jul 30, 2015 13:07
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We still haven't seen 12 go back to Gallifrey to finish the calculations. I wouldn't be surprised if that happens this season. We're also confirmed to start seeing a bit more of the start of the Time War with River and the 8th Doctor, so it will be interesting to see how much that crosses over to the main show.
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Jul 30, 2015 13:19
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Dr. Gene Dango MD posted:I don't know exactly what you're referring to in my post, was it the 13 Doctors using the painting device to seal Gallifrey away? My problems with that was not due to the other 9 not remembering it, they are The Moment let them through. Anyway Russell T Davies was the one who said it was locked off, not Sydney Newman or whoever.
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Jul 30, 2015 13:22
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Emerson Cod posted:We still haven't seen 12 go back to Gallifrey to finish the calculations. I wouldn't be surprised if that happens this season. oh, that's what he was calculating? im dumb
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Jul 30, 2015 13:31
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DoctorWhat posted:And now it's not locked, so they could get there. 2house2fly posted:The Moment let them through. Dr. Gene Dango MD fucked around with this message at 13:49 on Jul 30, 2015 |
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Jul 30, 2015 13:38
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Dr. Gene Dango MD posted:Also Hartnell and Troughton were Time Lord super criminals and probably would not want to go back. He's not a supercriminal, he's just a meddling thief (from the point of view of the Time Lords). He doesn't want his people eliminated.
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Jul 30, 2015 13:45
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The rule of non-interference is one of (if not the) Time Lords most sacred law and The Doctor breaks it all the time. I believe the punishment the Time Lords had in store for Troughton was going to be much more severe if he had not shown them the good he was doing, and then guilt tripped them for sitting in their ivory towers doing nothing while people suffered. In World Game Troughton worried he would be erased from existence, past and present, for his crimes. I believe the Time Lords did consider him a super criminal, but we'll agree to disagree.
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Jul 30, 2015 13:56
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Dr. Gene Dango MD posted:I want the show to be fresh and new again, but the showrunner is either recycling the ideas that got him the position in the first place or literally revisiting the history of the show with meta plot nonsense. You're complaining that the 50th anniversary special was not fresh and new and instead decided to revisit the history of the show?
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Jul 30, 2015 14:00
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The reason he actually left Gallifrey was because they'd found out about the time he killed a bully when he was a kid and shifted the blame onto the Master as part of a deal with Death.
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Jul 30, 2015 14:01
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Wheat Loaf posted:The reason he actually left Gallifrey was because they'd found out about the time he killed a bully when he was a kid and shifted the blame onto the Master as part of a deal with Death. Lidster can suck eggs 
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Jul 30, 2015 14:06
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2house2fly posted:Basically Name Of The Doctor has a villain who wants to retcon a bunch of previous episodes so they never happened. And his name? Future Showrunner X. 
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Jul 30, 2015 14:08
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No not really, I expected the thing to be fan service.Dr. Gene Dango MD posted:I forgave the 13 doctors appearing to seal Gallifrey away in the 50th special because it was fan service  about it because (as I understand it) BottledBodhisvata believed the issue I had with it was their memories of the event not being present beforehand. Also because I'm a big nerd. But we don't have to discuss anything about it any further, I'm not attempting to change anyone's opinion.I bet the new season will have some good episodes! edit; Has anyone read players? I don't usually go for written Who but if it's a semi sequel to World Game and written by Terrance Dicks I'm interested. Dr. Gene Dango MD fucked around with this message at 14:40 on Jul 30, 2015 |
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Jul 30, 2015 14:13
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I’m one of the people who didn’t care for Clara going through the Doctor’s timeline to nudge things back into place that the Great Intelligence made wrong. I’m one of those people who think Kill the Moon is a bad episode where the good points are overshadowed by bad writing and lousy science. I’m one of those people who think Danny Pink’s best moments were in Last Christmas. But you know…I’ve come to the point with Doctor Who where it just boils down to one thing. Overall, do I like the Doctor? Do I like Christopher Eccleston? Yes. Do I like David Tennant? Yes. Do I like Matt Smith? Yes. Do I like Peter Capaldi? Yes. Do I like Rowan Atkinson? I’ll explain later. In the end, the show is about the Doctor and his relationship with his companions, and the burden of that relationship is on the Doctor. I loved Smith with Karen and Arthur, but he never clicked with Jenna to me. Doesn’t mean I didn’t like Eleven’s final season, even though there were some bad episodes. I love Capaldi and Jenna’s chemistry and adore seeing them on screen together. Doesn’t mean this season didn’t have a clunker or two. I can overlook bad episodes, story arcs that don’t quite work, some actors working better together than others…hell, I actually bought a New 52 trade paperback this morning, though I blame insanity brought on by Donald Trump for that...as long as the core of the show, the Doctor, works. Wonderful chap. All of them.
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Jul 30, 2015 14:38
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Dr. Gene Dango MD posted:If some magical space deity appeared to Hartnell and Troughton and said " Hey come back to Gallifrey" I don't know if they would. They'd talk to the other Doctors and Troughton would go,"Contact?" to Pertwee, and Pertwee would say,"Contact" back with a nod, and then everybody would be up to speed!
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Jul 30, 2015 15:27
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Jerusalem posted:They'd talk to the other Doctors and Troughton would go,"Contact?" to Pertwee, and Pertwee would say,"Contact" back with a nod, and then everybody would be up to speed! “Oh, so you’re my replacements. A Bohemian and a cricket player.”
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Jul 30, 2015 15:43
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CobiWann posted:“Oh, so you’re my replacements. A Bohemian and a cricket player.” Troughton in 11's TARDIS would be pretty great. "I see you've been tidyi- oh. Goodness."
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Jul 30, 2015 15:54
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Do you think I'll need to have listened to a particular set of stories before doom coalition 2 or will it be fairly stand alone? I want to be up to speed but I'm not sure how much bf I can afford.
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Jul 30, 2015 22:23
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Little_wh0re posted:Do you think I'll need to have listened to a particular set of stories before doom coalition 2 or will it be fairly stand alone? I want to be up to speed but I'm not sure how much bf I can afford. Well, Doom Coalition 1 isn't even out yet, but looking at the descriptions for it, it looks like the first one is a pretty clean break. All I see is that the Doctor's got a companion he met in the last story arc. I would imagine they're expecting a lot of new listeners for DC2, so I'd expect they make it fairly easy to jump into. EDIT: Doom Coalition is seriously the dumbest name.
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Jul 30, 2015 22:34
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Rochallor posted:EDIT: Doom Coalition is seriously the dumbest name. Sadly the Alliance to End Doctormania was already taken by the revival.
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Jul 30, 2015 23:03
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Jerusalem posted:Sadly the Alliance to End Doctormania was already taken by the revival. Ten and Donna against the Alliance in a Triple TARDIS of Terror match!
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Jul 30, 2015 23:49
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CobiWann posted:Ten and Donna against the Alliance in a Triple TARDIS of Terror match! Nicholas Briggs: 
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Jul 31, 2015 00:24
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Rochallor posted:EDIT: Doom Coalition is seriously the dumbest name. Ruination Cordiale, doesn't quite roll off the tongue.
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Jul 31, 2015 00:25
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