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I'm nearly done with Sunset Invasion at 1804. Only Paris is still missing. Everything would probably have been easier if I'd gone Christian but what would be the point then. [Pics omitted due to health risk borders.] I did a bad job at keeping the Europeans out and they still control Canada and pockets of South America. I've also used the distant overseas discount to cheaply core South America and accidentally created a small colony. That is worse than it sounds because just as I backstabbed France they picked a fight with the Coalition consisting of all of Europe over one little province in Brazil. Thanks. I'm pretty confident that I can beat them but the last wars mostly destroyed my fleet and I probably won't get to ship more reinforcements to Europe. should things go south. Since there is no reason to save for later I'm running three military policies right now. 20% artillery combat strength is pretty nice. Overall that is my third try. The first I abandoned after trying to use the doom mechanic to get rid of a bad ruler. The second I was overly concerned with doom and took too few provinces for myself and then was destroyed in a coalition war with all my neighbours after pushing through all reforms. Even in this one I made plenty of mistakes. Mainly I should have unlocked the colonist earlier and never tried to keep Spain from taking my provinces in the first war. I nearly managed to kill their stack but the manpower and money I'd blown on the attempt might have kept some of the other Europeans from taking a bite out of me before Westernisation finished. In the end that worked out pretty well though since for whatever reason France only took one province and after a few buying weapons events was ready to form an alliance. And all the early wars against Spain didn't get the distant war modifier.
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Jul 30, 2015 15:07
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TTBF posted:Yeah, after thinking about it most of the territory I'm going to be taking after the game start isn't going to be very expensive to core, at least until I get Admin Efficiency. So I'm probably going to knock Administrative out of that list. The other amazing thing about admin is the merc discounts, though - I am a convert to the Reformed Church of Mercenary Meatshields. It's now my favorite admin-point group unless I desperately and immediately need humanism or religious. The only mediocre thing about it is the interest idea, and even that can be valuable when you need to hit the big red button.
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Jul 30, 2015 15:33
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TTBF posted:Is a good idea set for Muscovy Administrative (coring costs) -> Influence (AE curbing) -> Religious -> Expansion -> Economic -> 2 military? It seems to be too light on military so I'm guessing expansion could be cut out. GreyjoyBastard posted:The other amazing thing about admin is the merc discounts, though - I am a convert to the Reformed Church of Mercenary Meatshields. It's now my favorite admin-point group unless I desperately and immediately need humanism or religious. The only mediocre thing about it is the interest idea, and even that can be valuable when you need to hit the big red button. Yeah but it's kinda working at cross purposes with Muscovy's other ideas, namely huge manpower and cheap infantry. The merc ideas in Admin let you more efficiently turn gold into manpower, which I don't find all that useful as Muscovy since I'm generally tight on cash and have a large manpower pool. Influence isn't a bad pick but the AE reduction isn't all that valuable, like Ottomans you can switch between pushing west into Christian lands and east into Muslims, coalitions shouldn't be an issue. Economic is imo not all that exciting for Russia, Trade would be a better pickup for cash flow. It depends somewhat on how hard colonial you want to go. You can start Exploration and beeline to the Pacific across Siberia, get there around 1550. It's not too hard to set up colonies in the western Americas (California, Mexico, maybe Columbia, Peru) and you can colonize a bunch of Asia before the Europeans arrive. ADM: Religious, then Expansion later would be my top picks. A lot of your ADM points are going to go into coring, likely. DIP: Influence or Diplomatic are alright, Exploration first pick if you want to go hard colonial, Trade for cash MIL: Defensive is great, Quantity for even more colonies if you want. Quality, Offensive.
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Jul 30, 2015 15:52
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TTBF posted:Yeah, it seems like a lot has changed since my last Muscovy game and I'm having a hard time tossing out the information that no longer matters. I've done the math and the amount of administrative points I need for the objectives I've set (novgorod, religious track to 3, golden horde, religious track to 4, kazakh) can be gained in about 40 years. Including time to wage war and the occasional stability hit, that's not an unreasonable amount of time. Yeah, Muscovy is my goto nation, so I've actually done it twice since the patch. Just leave your focus on admin, go Religious, and decline all the patriarchy events in exchange for free stuff. You can go full patriarch if you want, but honestly I'd rather have the cash.
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Jul 30, 2015 15:52
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Thanks for the advice. Now I'm thinking Religious -> Defensive -> Trade and then play it by ear from there. Any thoughts on a quick religious war with LO to vassalize them and try and snag Danzig (if available) off TO? Danzig doesn't seem like a province I'd hold onto the entire game, but that free westernization would be nice.
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Jul 30, 2015 16:04
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That's the exact idea combo I usually take. As for Danzig, you can always wait a little bit, force Poland to release Danzig (or wait for it to fall out on its own like it did for me) and just diploannex it; you avoid having to wait for separatism to die down that way too. I integrated Danzig, westernized the next day, and sold it to Brandenburg the day after that, just for grins.
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Jul 30, 2015 16:12
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TTBF posted:Thanks for the advice. Now I'm thinking Religious -> Defensive -> Trade and then play it by ear from there. Any thoughts on a quick religious war with LO to vassalize them and try and snag Danzig (if available) off TO? Danzig doesn't seem like a province I'd hold onto the entire game, but that free westernization would be nice. Yeah or just take a few provinces off the LO, you don't need to vassalize them if it would fart out too much AE at one time. See if you can force release of Danzig as an independent OPM, then diplo-vassalize them. That way you can just integrate them in a decade and bam no separatism, free westernization. That's how I did it and was pretty painless. Religious, Trade, Defensive would probably be my starting picks, sounds good. Substitute Exploration for Trade and take it very first if you want to go whole hog colonial, though that will eat a lot of your cash. edit: GET OUT OF MY HEAD FORUMS POSTER PITTTHEELDER 
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Jul 30, 2015 16:14
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It appears that Lithuania retains the lucky flag even if they're in a personal union under a PC Poland. Anyone know if this also works with vassals (esp. those who are forced)? I am going to need another overpowered general creating vassal after I form the Commonwealth and Brandenburg would work well.
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Jul 30, 2015 16:24
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How does conquering all the hordes work out w/r/t accepted cultures for you guys? Conquering that much land that will never be accepted is a big turn-off for me so I havent started up a new Muscovy game since AoW changed Tartar to all of the sub-cultures.
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Jul 30, 2015 16:30
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Bort Bortles posted:How does conquering all the hordes work out w/r/t accepted cultures for you guys? Conquering that much land that will never be accepted is a big turn-off for me so I havent started up a new Muscovy game since AoW changed Tartar to all of the sub-cultures. I haven't actually run a Russia game yet, but I figured that most of those provinces would be very low development with hordes getting a huge penalty to dev cost like native americans. The expectation being that you'll culture flip them to Russian for fairly cheap?
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Jul 30, 2015 16:34
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Bort Bortles posted:How does conquering all the hordes work out w/r/t accepted cultures for you guys? Conquering that much land that will never be accepted is a big turn-off for me so I havent started up a new Muscovy game since AoW changed Tartar to all of the sub-cultures. Religious ideas gives you a discount on converting culture. As Russia you won't be using a ton of those, so you can either increase production (usually on non culture provinces) or convert culture. I think the later is probably the better option for a good stretch of the game.
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Jul 30, 2015 16:34
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Fintilgin posted:I haven't actually run a Russia game yet, but I figured that most of those provinces would be very low development with hordes getting a huge penalty to dev cost like native americans. The expectation being that you'll culture flip them to Russian for fairly cheap? TTBF posted:Religious ideas gives you a discount on converting culture. As Russia you won't be using a ton of those, so you can either increase production (usually on non culture provinces) or convert culture. I think the later is probably the better option for a good stretch of the game.
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Jul 30, 2015 16:54
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What's the point of exploration? You already get instant TI reveal, and unless you're ridiculously slow, crossing Siberia before Castile gets to it when you have 2 colonists isn't very hard. also I think you're slightly overestimating the development of the steppe. Russian ideas giving a culture conversion discount is definitely trying to give you a hint to take a certain path there too.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:01
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Bort Bortles posted:The base cost to culture flip is 10 diplo power and 1 month per 1 development if I remember correctly. Religious gives you a 25% discount and Russian ideas grant a 20% discount, and there is a policy that gives you 20% you can take IF you also have the Influence ideas, but Trade or Exploration seem like much better diplo ideas to take. Well, remember that the penalties for off-culture provinces are +2 RR, -33% manpower and taxes. One way to look at Patriarch Authority is that at max PA in addition to the missionary strength, you're basically negating the RR and manpower penalties in off-culture provinces while nuking tax income. Production and trade income aren't affected by culture, so at full PA your only real effective penalty is -66% taxes but that's not a huge issue past the early game since as you expand eastward you will get most of your income from trade/production. I will culture convert as a point dump if I don't have much better to do with the points, but it's not that big of a deal. Also once you westernize and get the -10% tech cost NI, you will have plenty of spare DIP points to toss around. Given that most of your provinces have hefty development penalties, it's often a better investment to culture convert. Koramei posted:What's the point of exploration? You already get instant TI reveal, and unless you're ridiculously slow, crossing Siberia before Castile gets to it when you have 2 colonists isn't very hard. Taking Exploration first would be specifically to get a head start on Siberia in order to make it to the Pacific early enough to colonize a bunch of Asia and the western Americas. It's also not too hard to take some North Sea provinces off of Norway and colonize Canada and northeastern America but you're going to have a hard time funneling that trade home unless you expand into the North Sea/Lubeck nodes which is doable too. You sacrifice a lot of income into colonies and armies to guard them, plus the missed income from taking Trade instead. Your conquering will be slower early on but long-term you can end up with an impressive colonial empire. You can hit the Pacific coast about 1550 and can be colonizing Taiwan and California shortly thereafter. Keep in mind you can funnel Mexico and Califonria trade nodes back to Asia. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Jul 30, 2015 |
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Jul 30, 2015 17:06
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Pellisworth posted:edit: GET OUT OF MY HEAD FORUMS POSTER PITTTHEELDER Only if you get out of mine first.  Bort Bortles posted:How does conquering all the hordes work out w/r/t accepted cultures for you guys? Conquering that much land that will never be accepted is a big turn-off for me so I havent started up a new Muscovy game since AoW changed Tartar to all of the sub-cultures. It's not a big deal. You convert them to Orthodox, typically before even coring, and then just ignore it. I don't even bother to culture convert them - previously I did if I was sitting on lots of diplopoints, but now I just develop my Russian provinces and gold mines instead. quote="Koramei" post="448354378"] What's the point of exploration? You already get instant TI reveal, and unless you're ridiculously slow, crossing Siberia before Castile gets to it when you have 2 colonists isn't very hard. [/quote] Taking explo is only if you want to colonize North America or Asia or something. Getting across Asia is trivial even with only one colonist; I don't really think Expansion is worth it for Russia now that it uses admin points. Back when it was diplo it was way more of a no brainer. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Jul 30, 2015 |
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Jul 30, 2015 17:15
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Bort Bortles posted:Could be. Even with 45% off that will round up to 6 diplo and 6 months PER development. There are a TON of horde provinces and though they are poorly developed, most will not be 1/1/1, so mass culture converting does not sound very appealing. The way I look at it, I'm not using those diplo points for anything, those provinces aren't (often) building anything, and there's significant penalties to having off culture provinces. There's little reason to not culture convert in those circumstances.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:17
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There is no way to make a Mac Ironman save in the Steam cloud load on a Windows box is there?
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Jul 30, 2015 17:17
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Koramei posted:What's the point of exploration? You already get instant TI reveal, and unless you're ridiculously slow, crossing Siberia before Castile gets to it when you have 2 colonists isn't very hard. PittTheElder posted:It's not a big deal. You convert them to Orthodox, typically before even coring, and then just ignore it. I don't even bother to culture convert them - previously I did if I was sitting on lots of diplopoints, but now I just develop my Russian provinces and gold mines instead. TTBF posted:The way I look at it, I'm not using those diplo points for anything, those provinces aren't (often) building anything, and there's significant penalties to having off culture provinces. There's little reason to not culture convert in those circumstances.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:26
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Allyn posted:And the 6 lines above that one for staying as a republic And this will work on a game in progress, not just a new game?
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Jul 30, 2015 17:29
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Modifications take effect on loading, so you do have to restart the game itself, but it'll work on an old save just fine.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:44
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I don't know why you would ever not take admin + influence as anyone unless you hate vassal feeding or you're doing some kind of gimmick playthrough, unless you're blessed with a magical neverending stream of dip and adm points. It's extremely rare that they don't make up my first 2 idea groups, with the order depending on how much I need the cheaper mercs and cores vs. early integration cost reduction. I'll admit that majors don't need the mercenary stuff that badly but it's still nice to have the ability to give very few fucks about manpower if you have the cash.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:55
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Mercs are excellent for early game even for majors, in fact that's probably the time they're most useful since most majors haven't completely shored up their manpower issues and the early game is prime time to get big. It may just be because I've had to reform a bunch of governments recently but I really like taking administrative now.
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Jul 30, 2015 18:09
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I like economic a lot. Its probably 10 to 1 in times I've taken that vs. admin.
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Jul 30, 2015 18:20
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Yeah my general purpose first three idea picks are Admin, Influence, and Defensive (maybe another mil set but usually Defensive). Hardcore colonizers go Exploration, Expansion, Quantity. Russia is a bit of a weird case though MrBling posted:I like economic a lot. Its probably 10 to 1 in times I've taken that vs. admin. IMO Economic is best as maybe your fourth or fifth pick, since that will line up nicely timing-wise with unlocking Development discounts from tech. I like to take Admin early and then Econ a bit later, just like Influence first and then later Diplomatic if I feel the need.
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Jul 30, 2015 18:21
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Pellisworth posted:Hardcore colonizers go Exploration, Expansion, Quantity. Yep, this is me. 
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Jul 30, 2015 19:05
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Just to throw my hat into Russia talk since I was sleeping and missed most of it: I always go Religious->Exploration->Mil Idea to start. Warning:  Religious first isn't a must, but it's pretty close since Sunni lands will otherwise be a huge pain in the rear end to deal with. Going Religious first lets you easily swoop in and pick off whoever loses the initial Golden Horde vs Kazan fight (they always fight). Also keep in mind that Perm takes Religious first as well, so feed them a bunch of Sunni land first and they'll be able to convert it for you before you even get the +MS bonus from Religious yourself. Exploration second has become a must-have for me. All the points people have made about not needing it are perfectly valid, and you could play it another way and not get it, but I absolutely love blitzing through Siberia/Asia early. The thing about colonizing Siberia is that, while 95% of the provinces are lovely 1/1/1's, you still get dozens of them for absolutely free in terms of AE, religious/cultural conversions, and Autonomy. That is incredibly useful in the early game where going to war is a money/manpower drain and leaves you having to deal with Autonomy, unrest, and conversions after taking any land. And while you won't be getting much directly from each province, if you focus on production and trade the income boost from controlling Siberia/Northern Asia is huge. While trade goods are generated randomly, you're almost guaranteed to get 5-6 gold provinces, along with dozens of iron/silver/copper ones. All with a mostly uncontested trade route that leads right back to Novgorod. You can then take Trade and get great use out of it now that you actually own a ton of land and have the Trade Power necessary to push some of the trade from the low trade routes up North to you. And as others have said you also get to the Pacific faster than any other European nation, which gives you free reign in the Philippines, Guinea, West Coast America, and Australia. Overall I just think quickly expanding and grabbing as many "free" provinces as you can is a way better start than chewing through Sunni lands and dealing with their web of alliances, or having to grind down Poland-Lithuania. I take a military idea third just because admin/dip points and tech need to catch up after you take them as your first two ideas. I usually go offensive or quality, but that's more of a personal choice at that point. I would avoid quantity as it's overkill with the quick colonization strategy because you'll have plenty of manpower (those crappy provinces really add up) and your force limit will be more than enough by itself, and will get a nice boost from Offensive eventually anyway. Also you should absolutely attack LO asap. Declare on Novgorod on day 1, take Novgorod, Neva, and the two provinces connecting them and giving you access to LO, then fabricate a claim, wait for Poland to declare on TO if they haven't yet (they literally always will), and then pick off LO and Riga once Poland/Lithuania grind down their armies. Best case scenario is you take Riga and then either take all of LO's lands (their total war score is a convenient 98%), vassalize them, or my personal favorite option of feeding all of their lands to Pskov (sell them Riga afterwards). It obviously makes it more expensive to diplo-annex them, but I find that after I get all the exploration ideas (everything except last two) there's a nice lull in the action anyway while I get my colonizers going, so I use that time to diplo-annex Pskov. You might be able to also grab a few TO provinces, but that whole situation got a little messier when they introduced the changes to province claiming in peace deals, so I just kind of leave it alone for now while keeping an eye on it to see if anything goofy happens (like Poland randomly deciding to release Danzig). By the time I get close to Admin 10 I usually have a good chunk of provinces in Siberia already and thus have the army necessary to push P/L around and grab those lands from them. VDay fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Jul 30, 2015 |
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Jul 30, 2015 19:12
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VDay posted:Just to throw my hat into Russia talk since I was sleeping and missed most of it: I always go Religious->Exploration->Mil Idea to start. Warning: What do you even do with the Philippenes or Indonesia as Russia?  You can't really get any of that trade home or anything?
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Jul 30, 2015 19:17
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Fintilgin posted:What do you even do with the Philippenes or Indonesia as Russia? In my current Exploration-first Russia save I'm actually colonizing the Cape node in South Africa because I noticed the Iberians hadn't made it there by the time I'd reached the Pacific and was exploring. That's probably mostly luck but it's not really that hard to lock down the Phillippines and/or Moluccas into your trade companies and just collect there. You get into colonizing the Asian-Pacific area early enough (late 1500s) that you'll pretty much have your pick of wherever you want to get established.
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Jul 30, 2015 19:27
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Fintilgin posted:What do you even do with the Philippenes or Indonesia as Russia?
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Jul 30, 2015 19:28
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Bort Bortles posted:As Russia you can eventually Westernize. If you are Westernized you can do Trade Companies. From Russia, you can conquer down into Persia and western India pretty easily. As a Western Colonizer, you can easily work to dominate Indonesian and Indian trade nodes and forward trade to Indus => Samarkand => Astrakhan => Kazan This too though it takes longer I like to colonize in the Philippines while conquering the Moluccas and Malacca nodes, add to Trade Companies. Even with the -50% trade power penalty for collecting there, the trade company gives you +100% trade power in provinces and you can easily have a dominating share there, it's not that big a deal.
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Jul 30, 2015 19:30
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Yeah I mostly just use them for merchant companies and the merchants they give, but getting there early also lets you establish them as bases of operations for when you start taking serious bites out of Asia/Ming, or the Indian region. You also keep the Europeans mostly out by taking those areas yourself, so that saves you some trouble later and keeps them a little more in check than they usually are. And I mean, you still get a bit of income from tariffs anyway, so it's not like you're just throwing money into the wind. It's just a natural expansion to your colonizing once you get all the land provinces, so it doesn't really hurt since you never have to worry about stuff like unrest or rebellions with those provinces and therefore might as well do it and get the small benefits.
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Jul 30, 2015 19:31
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Trade companies also give you huge naval force limit increases, which is something I'd imagine Russia has trouble with (I have never actually played Russia for more than like 3 minutes). ^ e: you don't get any money through tariffs tariffs are only for colonial nations. Monetarily until the very late game it seems kind of pointless (colonizing all that land will cost way more than you'll get for hundreds of years), but there are lots of non-monetary benefits for colonizing.
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Jul 30, 2015 19:32
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Koramei posted:Trade companies also give you huge naval force limit increases, which is something I'd imagine Russia has trouble with (I have never actually played Russia for more than like 3 minutes). Yeah this is the other bit I forgot to mention, and it might be even more important. It's pretty hard to get significant coastline as Russia, the extra naval forcelimits from getting your Trade Companies running helps you project power even better across the Pacific. It's pretty easy to chase off other colonizers who will have their fleets mostly concentrated in the Atlantic. Edit: I mean it's a balance, you could start whole-hog colonial as Muscovy and go Exploration, Expansion, Quantity. That would really slow down your conquering the hordes. If you don't really care about spewing colonies all over the Pacific then don't bother with Exploration. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jul 30, 2015 |
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Jul 30, 2015 19:35
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Pellisworth posted:In my current Exploration-first Russia save I'm actually colonizing the Cape node in South Africa because I noticed the Iberians hadn't made it there by the time I'd reached the Pacific and was exploring. That's probably mostly luck but it's not really that hard to lock down the Phillippines and/or Moluccas into your trade companies and just collect there. You get into colonizing the Asian-Pacific area early enough (late 1500s) that you'll pretty much have your pick of wherever you want to get established. Pellisworth posted:This too though it takes longer
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Jul 30, 2015 19:39
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The Cape is a huge deal to get if you're doing any kind of colonization because it's really easy to get 100% trade power there (like, one or two wars easy, even if you get there late), and you can route a ton of trade into it. If you want to really do well there, though, you'll want to conquer eastern Africa, which should be done as early as you can because that's slightly trickier, especially if anyone westernizes.
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Jul 30, 2015 19:45
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Koramei posted:What's the point of exploration? You already get instant TI reveal, and unless you're ridiculously slow, crossing Siberia before Castile gets to it when you have 2 colonists isn't very hard. Russia's colonies typically will grow by 55 colonists a year. That's if you push for admin tech 15 with the +growth policy from exploration. At that rate it simply takes a long time to fill in all of Siberia and get colonies elsewhere like America. Instant TI reveal requires you to have an adjacent province. If you want to prioritize colonizing certain provinces having an explorer makes a difference. Having 3 settlers instead of 2 makes a big difference in when those Siberian provinces come online, which makes a big difference in how much they're benefiting you during the game.
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Jul 30, 2015 19:56
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Also you do not get auto-explore TI + colonist until you are on your third idea set, which is pretty late. If you go Exploration second you can get a huge jump on crossing Siberia. edit: I was just thinking that now after all this chat I am definitely going to start up a Muscovy game. I was debating if I would want to take Expansion first :iamafag: It would probably be best to wait and take it third (after taking Exploration second) because colonizing immediately would be expensive and slow. It makes me sad that Religious + Exploration does not have its own + colonist policy, considering conquering the new world for God was a big deal. AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Jul 30, 2015 |
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Jul 30, 2015 20:08
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Bort Bortles posted:How does conquering all the hordes work out w/r/t accepted cultures for you guys? Conquering that much land that will never be accepted is a big turn-off for me so I havent started up a new Muscovy game since AoW changed Tartar to all of the sub-cultures. With the -culture cost from Russian ideas and from Religious, Culture Conversion is still very expensive  I generally culture convert high development provinces that can be made productive with buildings and specialization. I try to avoid converting 8 development or less provinces for the most part.My idea group order for Russia: Exploration -> Religious -> Defensive -> Influence -> Admin -> Military stuff
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Jul 30, 2015 20:12
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Rakthar posted:With the -culture cost from Russian ideas and from Religious, Culture Conversion is still very expensive  I see my self culture converting provinces that I would want to upgrade and provinces I would be putting important forts into. Also Crimea because hail Putin.
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Jul 30, 2015 20:13
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Bort Bortles posted:Exploration first, 'eh? Yeah if you get the Exploration ball rolling it works nicely. Annex perm in December 1454 so that you get access to Siberia asap. Do all of Siberia. Religious second because you won't have the admin points for the +missionary strength policy until quite a ways in, if you are trying to keep up on Admin Tech. I've tried it both ways and Exploration first lets me hit the gas on colonizing and since I'm taking Novgorod's provinces first (and stuff like Ryazan / LO / Tver etc) the lack of conversions is not an issue. [edit]Forgot one tip. You can't diplovassalize ryazan. Fabricate a claim on them day 1 and vassalize them militarily. Also fabricate a claim on Golden Horde. Then if golden horde declares on Ryazan (they typically will) you can wait until they siege them for a while, declare war on both, murder GH's army that's right next to Moscow, and then take Ryazan. I like to finish that second war with Golden Horde by taking a few GH provinces and humiliating them (you can Rival them). Ham Sandwiches fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Jul 30, 2015 |
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Jul 30, 2015 20:19
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