|
Libluini posted:Zero's story reminds me of a poem I once read. The Gods of the Copybook Headings? Non-metaphorically, it's just saying, "The world works on the same ruthless rules whether or not you admit it; ignoring this is a Bad Idea." Or, depending on your sympathies, basically a poem by a cranky old dude yelling at all those dumb idealistic kids. (Taking it literally makes for a much cooler story, though.) Personally I'm thinking more of the second part of Howl by Allen Ginsburg. "What sphinx of cement and aluminum bashed open their skulls and ate up their brains and imagination? ... Moloch the incomprehensible prison! Moloch the crossbone soulless jailhouse and Congress of sorrows! Moloch whose buildings are judgment! Moloch the vast stone of war! Moloch the stunned governments!" What makes the world go so wrong when not being awful is easy? Moloch!
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 22:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 13:31 |
|
|
Geostomp posted:I bet Dito is kicking himself for missing Zero's old days. It's like meeting the star you had a crush on as a kid when you're grown up and she's 45. She's still pretty and has a place in your heart, but time, it passes for us all 
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 23:11
|
|
|
Hmm... I wonder if the Scourge is related to Nier's Black Scrawl problem...
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 23:17
|
|
|
Chokes McGee posted:It's like meeting the star you had a crush on as a kid when you're grown up and she's 45. She's still pretty and has a place in your heart, but time, it passes for us all Except in this case the star is a living corpse, abusive, and has a hole.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 23:18
|
|
|
Mega64 posted:Except in this case the star is a living corpse, abusive, and has a hole. Right, like I said
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 23:19
|
|
|
Suzaku posted:I was thinking that the five sisters might actually BE the rebels in the square. Just reanimated by flower power. It would also explain a bit about why something about each of them keeps growing--it corresponds to whatever was lost during the tortures. The lady she was talking to would be One--the bulk of her senses were removed with the needles and branding, so those are heightened. Four is the one who got her fingernails yanked out. Etc. Makes sense. Five bit her tongue off, and now she hungers.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 23:23
|
|
|
Mega64 posted:That's been common knowledge since the first game where the most moral person was a pedophile. Well yeah, but this was a good chance to use the flower as an excuse for them. You know, world was generally okay til the flower showed up and all this poo poo went down and forever altered the character of the world forever. But people were terrible shits in this world before the flower ever showed up and started causing poo poo. Forever a world full of terrible people. ...This is starting to feel like NIER a bit. The flower's here to wipe this terrible world out of existence, and Zero is trying to stop it, even though all evidence points to it being a generally good thing if all these terrible loving people died.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 23:28
|
|
|
Suzaku posted:I don't *think* anything has said how long Zero was running around pollinated before spawning the sisters, at least.... Skylight posted:
BattleCattle posted:Maybe the five sisters were based on the rebels in the square. Outside of One, no. According to the side story of course which is probably canon as well. So, I've been wanting to post this hastily made "Manah Family Tree"  This is also why One's eyes are the only ones of the sisters that don't match her hair/(clothing)theme color. It's a really important point Also, it's kind of a funny sign of what Zero's corruption does to people. RL was pure and honorable to a fault. Add Zero's...awfulness One was honorable and did her very best against insurmountable odds, but made a lot of mistakes and had problems One(M) was broken by the loss of his sister Ramia was crazy. Probably after husband's death, but who knows Manah was treated poorly and that reflected in her life. e: If this breaks any rules I'll delete but The sisters are based off of Zero's memories One is the Rebel Leader. Two is unknown. Possibly Zero if she had a happy life Three is unknown. Possibly some the manifestation of a deep seated obsession of Zero's Four is young Zero(brothel age). Paranoid, distrustful, slightly prideful Five is a nun Zero killed. Her attitude might be based on a pun(Bitch and Nun are the same word in JP, but from my research, "ama" is just a word that is derogatory towards women in general, not directly related to sex/sluttiness) Postal Parcel fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Jul 31, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 23:44
|
|
|
I still think there's literary potential behind the Sisters being at least influenced by the rebels, even if it isn't actually realized by the material. It fits really well.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 23:59
|
|
|
Postal Parcel posted:So, I've been wanting to post this hastily made "Manah Family Tree" With a family tree like that it's no wonder that Manah was such a hosed-up kid. Being descended from a genderbent clone of a magical construct created by a flower powered by unspeakable abominations from beyond time and space probably fucks with the gene pool a bit. Also, I am so glad I lived long enough to type out that last sentence, as I doubt it will ever be said again. Drakengard! Dr. Snark fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Aug 1, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 00:00
|
|
|
RelentlessImp posted:Well yeah, but this was a good chance to use the flower as an excuse for them. You know, world was generally okay til the flower showed up and all this poo poo went down and forever altered the character of the world forever. But I do wonder what kind of Drakengard druids were responsible for the flower.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 00:01
|
|
|
If the sisters are incarnations of people Zero's met/killed, then Two could be based on Indigo. Shrug.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 00:06
|
|
|
RelentlessImp posted:Well yeah, but this was a good chance to use the flower as an excuse for them. You know, world was generally okay til the flower showed up and all this poo poo went down and forever altered the character of the world forever. Thinking on it, that would generally be how a typical JRPG type story would play out, and we know that doesn't really play into Yoko Taro's philosophy. In the Grim Dark World of Drakenier, there are only complete poo poo-hogs, and the people that are poo poo-hogged on. To compare it to NIER, Nier was about a man inadvertently dooming the entire world to perpetual decay to save his daughter - where there is really just misunderstanding with the antagonists; Drakengard 3 is about an absolute monster who realises that dooming the world is the worse alternative than trying to save it from her "wish". It's interesting to see something that's not really a redemption story, as such, more like a rectification. How they handle Zero as a character is also pretty interesting - she's nicely complicated.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 00:14
|
|
|
BattleCattle posted:If the sisters are incarnations of people Zero's met/killed, then Two could be based on Indigo. There's a bit of Four in there too - Sickly sweet at first glance, but a pitiless killer with no empathy for others underneath.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 00:16
|
|
|
BattleCattle posted:If the sisters are incarnations of people Zero's met/killed, then Two could be based on Indigo. Indigo was a manipulative dick
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 00:16
|
|
|
I think the 5 rebels and 5 sisters situation is too much of a coincidence to entirely ignore. Going back a few pages to the disciples, I think Zero may have been planning ahead more than we credit her for with them. If we assume, on poor evidence at best I admit, that disciples help an intoner maintain sanity/control against the flower they are doubly helpful during Zero's quest. First, they prevent the sisters from going nuts too early for Zero to do anything about it and second they provide Zero extra mental/magical support as her own flower grows. That's why she was taking her sister's men, they're like a fail-safe against the flower. As for "Drakengard world deserves it, the flower is right" line of thought, no way man! Too small minded, too much assuming some kind of objective morality or whatever. The flowers/watchers are just further evidence that the entire universe is a fuckstack of horribleness, a matryoshka of bad where big horrible things just contain other smaller horrible things. Inside the last doll is Mikhail 
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 00:28
|
|
|
BattleCattle posted:If the sisters are incarnations of people Zero's met/killed, then Two could be based on Indigo. That would make sense, since her main memory of Indigo was that she had chosen to take a man as a protector.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 00:42
|
|
|
Are we sure that the intoners weren't based on the rebels? This is the first thing in the thread I genuinely don't know, but that's what I had always assumed. (If there is something contradicting this idea, I haven't read it) The number matches up, and it fits with why they would go on to be rebels in Utahime five if they had lingering memories. It feels strange that only One would be based off the group.CheeseThief posted:I think the 5 rebels and 5 sisters situation is too much of a coincidence to entirely ignore. Its only addressed in other games, so its not really a spoiler, but the watchers are kind of assumed to be acting on God's (the big one) behalf. They never say why God wants everything wiped out, or even if it is all just a tribulation. (Well, if you made the world of drakengard you may want to start over) But its hinted that big G even intercedes at some points, and its a popular fan theory that manah's deep voice at the end of Drakengard is God's. What we do know is that no one wants it. For both player and characters, its not a question of morality, but survival. We are definitely not supposed to root for the villains, as they are the only possible option worse than the protagonists.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 00:47
|
|
|
Pesky Splinter posted:Thinking on it, that would generally be how a typical JRPG type story would play out, and we know that doesn't really play into Yoko Taro's philosophy. I've said it before, but this game looks like what you'd end up with if Kaine got her own story. Both are violent, foul-mouthed, scantly-clad young women with an alien entity of evil hitching a ride in their heads. They know how bad they are or have been and decided to pursue a quest, expecting to die themselves at the end. There are some differences, like Kaine being a much better person even with Tyrann demanding a minimum amount of slaughter than Zero ever could be, but both women are aware that they're too far gone for any real redemption and are just hoping to accomplish one meaningful thing before they die, hoping that the world will be at least somewhat better without them in it. I kind of see Zero as what Kaine could have become if she didn't have her grandmother, followed by Nier's group in her life.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 00:48
|
|
|
Einander posted:The Gods of the Copybook Headings? Non-metaphorically, it's just saying, "The world works on the same ruthless rules whether or not you admit it; ignoring this is a Bad Idea." Or, depending on your sympathies, basically a poem by a cranky old dude yelling at all those dumb idealistic kids. (Taking it literally makes for a much cooler story, though.) Yeah, that was it! It always resonated strong with me, after all the universe doesn't care if we're ignoring asteroids or climate change, if we overdo it nature will still kill us! (Right now it looks more like our end comes with the great hungerpocalypse. 7,3 billion people and population is still rising faster and faster every year.) Moloch sounds good, but I think it's wrong to attribute a strange, incomprehensible other with our own faults. On the other hand, inventing evil creatures must be the kind of delusion the Gods of the Copybook Headings really like.  Moloch is our own stupidity. Moloch's secret is it doesn't exist, you see Now I'm thinking the flower could also be a manifestation of the watchers.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 00:50
|
|
|
The watchers are the angels we've been summoning. The true villain is something bigger.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 01:03
|
|
|
BattleCattle posted:The watchers are the angels we've been summoning. The true villain is something bigger. I always knew something was up with Octa
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 01:35
|
|
|
MrAptronym posted:We are definitely not supposed to root for the villains, as they are the only possible option worse than the protagonists. This is my favorite summary of the Drakengard series ever. (Spoilered line is not actually spoilery, but kept as spoiler because hey, I'm quoting someone)
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 01:37
|
|
|
Libluini posted:Yeah, that was it! It always resonated strong with me, after all the universe doesn't care if we're ignoring asteroids or climate change, if we overdo it nature will still kill us! (Right now it looks more like our end comes with the great hungerpocalypse. 7,3 billion people and population is still rising faster and faster every year.) It's less "Moloch is a thing that exists and hates us" and more "'Moloch' is a word to use for the general concept of moral entropy." All affairs in the state of nature tend to slide towards Moloch without conscious intervention, because "Moloch" is the state of cutting corners, discarding safety standards on factory lines because they cut into profit margins. The word to use here isn't "evil," because it's usually not a product of malice; it's not "stupid," because as Moloch increases morality becomes more likely to get you killed; it's not quite greed, either, because no one participating thinks that they're tearing society apart for their own personal gain. Pre-Flower Zero is a pretty good example of what happens to people in a high-Moloch environment.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 02:23
|
|
|
Einander posted:It's less "Moloch is a thing that exists and hates us" and more "'Moloch' is a word to use for the general concept of moral entropy." All affairs in the state of nature tend to slide towards Moloch without conscious intervention, because "Moloch" is the state of cutting corners, discarding safety standards on factory lines because they cut into profit margins. The word to use here isn't "evil," because it's usually not a product of malice; it's not "stupid," because as Moloch increases morality becomes more likely to get you killed; it's not quite greed, either, because no one participating thinks that they're tearing society apart for their own personal gain. Thanks for this post, i feel like i've learned something again.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 02:34
|
|
|
Einander posted:It's less "Moloch is a thing that exists and hates us" and more "'Moloch' is a word to use for the general concept of moral entropy." All affairs in the state of nature tend to slide towards Moloch without conscious intervention, because "Moloch" is the state of cutting corners, discarding safety standards on factory lines because they cut into profit margins. The word to use here isn't "evil," because it's usually not a product of malice; it's not "stupid," because as Moloch increases morality becomes more likely to get you killed; it's not quite greed, either, because no one participating thinks that they're tearing society apart for their own personal gain. Is Moloch apathy? Because that's what it sounds close to based on your description here.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 02:44
|
|
|
W.T. Fits posted:Is Moloch apathy? Because that's what it sounds close to based on your description here. It sounds like apathy is the destination, but not the journey there.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 02:50
|
|
|
W.T. Fits posted:Is Moloch apathy? Because that's what it sounds close to based on your description here. HenryEx posted:It sounds like apathy is the destination, but not the journey there. Yep, apathy is instrument but not identity of Moloch... But it's a specific kind of indifference. It's thinking, "Well, this doesn't matter if I'm the only one doing it." It's like voting: one vote is insignificant, but if all the sane people stay home then, by definition, the crazy ones win the election. Edit: It's also the kind of apathy that thinks, "Well, if it's this bad, can I really make it worse?" Yes. Yes you can. Einander fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Aug 1, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 03:05
|
|
|
I keep looking at Mana/Nowe/Garbage Can and laughing like someone doused me with Joker Venom. Help, I'm a broken person.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 03:14
|
|
|
Chokes McGee posted:I keep looking at Mana/Nowe/Garbage Can and laughing like someone doused me with Joker Venom. Their children are going to break the world again. Thanks, Nowe.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 03:19
|
|
|
BattleCattle posted:Their children are going to break the world again. Thanks, Nowe. If Manah ever decides that she's done running an orphanage and wants to settle down and have a family of her own, anyway. ... She's probably gonna die before that, isn't she...Genuinely trying to not be an rear end in a top hat is like screaming to the Drakengods, "I WOULD NOT MIND DYING SOON!"
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 03:33
|
|
|
For a second when I saw the shadowy silhouette I thought it was Caim.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 03:35
|
|
|
Skylight posted:If Manah ever decides that she's done running an orphanage and wants to settle down and have a family of her own, anyway. I dunno, Two turned out o—oh. OH. Oooooh.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 03:38
|
|
|
Skylight posted:If Manah ever decides that she's done running an orphanage and wants to settle down and have a family of her own, anyway. Running an orphanage in the Drakengard universe? When has that ever gone wrong? I think you're exaggerating the grimdark of the setting a bit. e:f;b
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 03:38
|
|
|
YeOldeButchere posted:Running an orphanage in the Drakengard universe? When has that ever gone wrong? Probably ended better off than Lucca's orphanage at Chrono Cross. ... Too soon?
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 03:59
|
|
|
Cangelosi posted:Probably ended better off than Lucca's orphanage at Chrono Cross. Oof, Oldschool TDI. The memories....
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 04:00
|
|
|
So the Watchers are supposed to be angels, right? And one of the most popular depictions of angels in pop culture is a young child with wings, like this: Now if you make the kid younger and a bit more alabaster, and you make the wings a bit more electric, what do you end up with?
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 04:05
|
|
|
You end up with watchers, yes, that's correct.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 04:20
|
|
|
ultrafilter posted:So the Watchers are supposed to be angels, right? And one of the most popular depictions of angels in pop culture is a young child with wings, like this: Also, teeth.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 04:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 13:31 |
|
|
I just assume Zero died and the flower in her pollinated the other five corpses to turn them into her "sisters". Hence some of them having vague memories.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 04:55
|
|
