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Duly noted about Religious as Muscovy, thanks!
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Jul 31, 2015 22:25
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VDay posted:But man does it feel pretty satisfying when you finally punch through them and leave them weak enough to be devoured from all sides by the HRE, Scandanavia, and Hungary/Ottomans. I waited until the League War was raging, Protestant and Catholic sides were pretty evenly matched and I'd previously taken Danzig so Poland was unable to form the Commonwealth. I didn't even feel dirty kicking them when they were down like that, tanked their prestige enough that Lithuania broke free of the PU. IMO that's probably the best strategy for dealing with them, snipe Danzig fairly early to Westernize and block them from inheriting Lithuania by forming the Commonwealth, then wait until they're busy fighting a big war with the Ottomans or someone else strong, dogpile. Poland is a Lucky nation as of the last few patches, plus they like to take Offensive so they have really strong leaders, you don't have a military quality or tech advantage. It's a bloody fight.
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Jul 31, 2015 22:28
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TTBF posted:Poland's PU over Lithuania was broken, they had no alliance, Lithuania was two military techs behind me, and a disastrous war left Lithuania with no manpower. I used the decision to make myself Russia, and invaded. This was the best time to do this. There's a Conquer Eastern Poland mission that will give you claims on the same area, more or less. Although I'm not sure of the conditions off hand, and the wiki hasn't been updated to include it. Kersch posted:I'm playing a Papal States game and these centers of reformation won't leave me alone. Like 75% of my country is wrong religion and there's nothing to do about it. What a big fart. HolyRomanEmperors.txt
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Jul 31, 2015 22:38
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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When should I use the force nations to release other nations option? I always look at the dip cost and go "I could take that territory, release the nation and dip-annex it for that". I think it should be useful for places I have no interest in actually trying to take, but it costs so much that I just end up taking it for myself instead. Are there any casus belli that reduce the cost of forcing a nation to release others?
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Jul 31, 2015 22:43
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I believe the coalition CB lets you do it on the cheap. Three reasons to two it:
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Jul 31, 2015 23:19
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Hahahaha my Ironman Muscovy game went and hosed itself sideways. I started out by doing a classic Russian move: immediately declared war on Novgorod while fabricating a claim on Tver and Ryazan. I beat the poo poo out of Novgorod in several wars, filling the time between truces with beating up on Kazan and the Golden Horde. Ryazan and Tver refused to ever let themselves be vassalized with me, so I just took some of their provinces. Fast forward a hundred years, I decided to try and westernize early since I'd never done it before and wanted to see what the fuss was about. Well, turns out it hosed my army straight up. I didn't realize my Army tradition was back at 0 since I apparently accidentally clicked the option to lose 30 army and 30 navy tradition or lose 120 westernization points. I was conquered by motherfucking Ryazan, a by-then one province minor which annihilated my four stacks of 15-20 units repeatedly with their single 15 stack. I have never quit a game out of embarrassment before but I sure as hell did then.
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Jul 31, 2015 23:25
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VDay posted:Yeah Poland-Lithuania are one of the hardest nations to fight and take territory from, which is why I usually just ignore them as Muscovy/Russia until it's time to grab Danzig and Westernize. Danzig is actually held by a Sweden/Russia backed Pomerania in this game. I could break the alliance and do a no-CB war for it but I'd have to fight against my only remaining allies to do so. I'm going to try it next chance I see either of them weak.
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Jul 31, 2015 23:32
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HonorableTB posted:I was conquered by motherfucking Ryazan, a by-then one province minor which annihilated my four stacks of 15-20 units repeatedly with their single 15 stack. That sounds like a lot more going on than just being out of AT to allow something like that to happen. Were your sliders not up? That's the only way I can think of that 15k can beat 60-80k in the same tech group, unless you haven't taken a single mil tech or something.
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Jul 31, 2015 23:38
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How do formable nations work with culture shifting? Always wanted to dumb run ideas, like forming a nation as their historical rival by managing to shift. Could I do something dumb, like forming Bahrat as the Timurids if I managed to get the dominant culture to something like Punjab, moved my capital to Delhi and then accepted the shift? Always wondered, never tried it.
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Jul 31, 2015 23:38
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PittTheElder posted:I believe the coalition CB lets you do it on the cheap. Three reasons to two it: It seems to cost as much warscore as taking the provinces does, so it doesn't seem an especially great loving for your rivals. How much AE does releasing a nation lose you compared to taking it's provinces? Do you still lose AE for releasing? I don't tend to conquer furiously enough to have AE problems, so it might just feel not that great to me, because I'm not that great at the game. Is it plausible to just sit on a conquered nation until its war exhaustion racks up and let rebels shatter it?
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Jul 31, 2015 23:45
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Trujillo posted:That sounds like a lot more going on than just being out of AT to allow something like that to happen. Were your sliders not up? That's the only way I can think of that 15k can beat 60-80k in the same tech group, unless you haven't taken a single mil tech or something. My sliders were all the way up, but my problem was that my conquests in Kazan produced a poo poo ton of unrest and I kept having to blow my mil power on suppressing the rebels during war since they kept rising up, taking provinces, granting them ten years of nationalism, rinse and repeat. I think I'd only gotten one military tech by that point, but I had also been filling out the Quantity ideas as quickly as possible so I could take Religious ideas. Another problem I had was that Kazan's proximity to my newly conquered provinces was causing a lot of nationalism unrest and I couldn't fully wipe out Kazan because I couldn't even see about half of their country due to not having conquistadors.
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Jul 31, 2015 23:47
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HonorableTB posted:I think I'd only gotten one military tech by that point There's the problem. Even a difference of one military tech between countries can make a huge difference in battle. Going at least 100 years and only taking 1 mil tech is a death sentence. You shouldn't be ignoring mil tech in favor of mil ideas, especially not quantity. Quantity isn't going to do you any good if your massive army is beat by an OPM. And by using mil power on suppressing rebels you're blowing your most valuable resource on delaying the inevitable. Unless you're trying to suppress to make sure you don't have two rebellions at once or if you don't have an army at the time, it's almost always better just to let them rebel and wipe them out. After they rise up there'll be a -20 to revolt risk for a while in those provinces. Mil points are a much more limited resource than ducats/manpower. As for not being able to see Kazan, if you're at war with a country you don't need conquistadors to walk into provinces of theirs covered by fog, it just takes longer.
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Jul 31, 2015 23:58
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Theswarms posted:Is it plausible to just sit on a conquered nation until its war exhaustion racks up and let rebels shatter it? Yes, that is why Call for Peace exists, to stop you exploiting it like that. However, you can't get Call for Peace if you don't have 66% warscore, so if you can keep a war up for that long at 65%, you can still destroy an opponent. Also, letting the rebs have their way maybe isn't optimum play, letting go bankrupt is better. They will be screwed beyond belief.
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Aug 1, 2015 00:03
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HonorableTB posted:My sliders were all the way up, but my problem was that my conquests in Kazan produced a poo poo ton of unrest and I kept having to blow my mil power on suppressing the rebels during war since they kept rising up, taking provinces, granting them ten years of nationalism, rinse and repeat. I think I'd only gotten one military tech by that point, but I had also been filling out the Quantity ideas as quickly as possible so I could take Religious ideas. You don't need conquistadors to unveil TI from a nation you are at war with. It's actually a great way to explore Siberia for free before you get your wallhacks from national ideas. Any new territories you take, just boost autonomy on ALL of them. They're all wrong religion and wrong culture so you're not losing much anyway. You shouldn't have to waste any military on suppressing rebels until you get big and even then it's just because you can't be assed to move your army halfway across Siberia to kill some peasants.
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Aug 1, 2015 00:06
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Theswarms posted:It seems to cost as much warscore as taking the provinces does, so it doesn't seem an especially great loving for your rivals. How much AE does releasing a nation lose you compared to taking it's provinces? Do you still lose AE for releasing? No AE loss for releasing, that wouldn't really make any sense. Just taking provinces will always be better in a pure relative power trade, but then you have to deal with the AE, coring cost, revolts, etc. Absolutely possible to sit on someone and shatter them. Declare war with a conquest CB, with the wargoal to take a non-fort province, and occupy everything except the wargoal. HonorableTB posted:My sliders were all the way up, but my problem was that my conquests in Kazan produced a poo poo ton of unrest and I kept having to blow my mil power on suppressing the rebels during war since they kept rising up, taking provinces, granting them ten years of nationalism, rinse and repeat. I think I'd only gotten one military tech by that point, but I had also been filling out the Quantity ideas as quickly as possible so I could take Religious ideas. Don't use military power to suppress unrest, just let them revolt. When they do, you get a -20 Unrest modifier in all the provinces that were supporting rebels of that type. Falling way behind in military tech will always get you hosed over at a surprising pace, don't do it. Proximity to Kazan has nothing to do with it. Conquered provinces receive a flat amount of Separatism that ticks down slowly over time (-0.5/year). Even if you wiped out Kazan, that separatism would still be there. Also, if you are at war with a nation, any of your units can walk into provinces owned by them, even if those provinces are TI. It'll take the standard movement speed penalty for moving into unexplored lands, but they'll eventually arrive and uncover it for you. Finally, don't pick Quantity as Russia, and definitely don't pick it first. You want Religious first, and as Russia you get the least out of Quantity ideas, given that you already have massive bonuses to manpower and infantry cost. Money is going to be your limiting factor, so invest in making your troops better instead.
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Aug 1, 2015 00:23
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Yeah with the way revolts work now, it's usually better to just park your armies nearby and let them revolt. It's predictable so you have at least like a year to get troops there. Rebel faction progress is IMO a great thing to have in your outliner so you can keep an eye on when they're about to revolt. Then as PittTheElder said, after you beat the rebellion all the revolting provinces get -20 RR and that should be plenty of time to finish coring and converting them. I almost never spend MIL points on harsh treatment, maybe in a situation where a really nasty rebellion was about to fire off and I wasn't prepared.
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Aug 1, 2015 00:28
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Another Person posted:How do formable nations work with culture shifting? Always wanted to dumb run ideas, like forming a nation as their historical rival by managing to shift. Yup, there's tons of fun crap you can do like forming Russia as Kazan, or Arabia as basically anyone with a capital in Asia. Other exploitative-seeming fun stuff: forming Bukhara is based entirely on your country tag and not on culture or anything else so you could feasibly do something like conquer your way down to India, culture shift, then form Bukhara and then form Hindustan; this would leave you as a Muslim tech non-nomadic government with the Horde ideas and Hindustani cultural union. This is I think the only way to have Horde ideas after reforming; otherwise the Kazan and Manchu ideas are similar but not quite as good, though Kazan does get some good poo poo with the earlier core cost reduction and capstone 15% morale. I kind of want to try to form Bukharan Super Arabia now 
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Aug 1, 2015 00:37
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PittTheElder posted:Finally, don't pick Quantity as Russia, and definitely don't pick it first. You want Religious first, and as Russia you get the least out of Quantity ideas, given that you already have massive bonuses to manpower and infantry cost. Money is going to be your limiting factor, so invest in making your troops better instead. Yeah, I don't think forcelimit and manpower bonuses stack the same way that morale, discipline, etc. bonuses do. You can have too much forcelimit in the early game, especially with the limitation being primarily money. I think Defensive is fantastic for Russia, both because they don't get any inherent army morale bonuses and also because Defensive + winter attrition means you won't even have to fight invaders half the time. Either way I really, really don't think I'd take a military idea group first as an Eastern power because keeping up in tech levels is so essential. If your provinces are revolting, and progress is nearing 90%, then station some troops in the provinces that have unrest and are also Mountains and/or have rivers on all sides. Rebels don't start off at half morale anymore but they still count as the attacker and you can at least get some terrain bonuses against them. As other people have said, suppressing rebels is a button you should only ever click if you're already in a war and you absolutely cannot afford to have those rebels rise up. Always fight them if you can, and don't be afraid to raise autonomy if that will make the difference between them rising up and them not rising up. Those provinces suck anyway (and once you press the Russia button you become an Empire and get bonus autonomy reduction). If you can take both quantity and Russian ideas and also build to forcelimit with no money problems, then you have won the game. Congratulations, now grab your achievements and quit.
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Aug 1, 2015 00:40
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Gotcha. So I should be taking Religious ideas first, followed by Defensive? I'm normally a super aggressive player, so I like to just take as much land as possible, spend the peacetime coring and converting it while rebuilding my military for the next fight.
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Aug 1, 2015 01:00
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^military idea third unless you get some insanely good kings, you don't want to fall behind in miltech for the first 12 or so and Eastern tech units start out utterly poo poo so you want to upgrade them quickly. Also I don't really think religious is necessary for the first one but then after not taking it I'm having to deal with like 100 Sunni provinces and 50% religious unity so maybe don't listen to me there. We have this debate every now and then about quantity and Russia in this thread, there are still some merits to taking it (being able to project power in China and Europe simultaneously without having to ponce all the way across Siberia every single time being the main one) but yes for the love of god don't prioritize military ideas over tech like that. Also it sounded like HonorableTB thought he had to fill out the group before he could take religious? You can have multiple idea sets in progress at once. Kind of important that. incidentally (like a few other people, it seems) this Russia talk got me to try a Muscovy game for the first time. Orthodox seems really lovely for a western religion. Even with religious ideas it's taking a long rear end time to convert all this Sunni land. Doesn't help that I keep going for the quick bonus and have my patriarchal authority forever stuck at 0 I guess. I did manage to take Danzig in the first 3 years though; the Teutonic Order was in an alliance with the Livonian Order so I just declared on them the moment I saw Poland gunning for it and rushed my armies to camp on the province as fast as humanly possible. It did take my Poland relations from best buddies to -100 from a single province but I guess that was inevitable. Koramei fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Aug 1, 2015 |
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Aug 1, 2015 01:03
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Religious is absolutely critical for every start outside of main Europe IMO.
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Aug 1, 2015 01:12
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Larry Parrish posted:Religious is absolutely critical for every start outside of main Europe IMO. Any situation where you're Muslim and conquering provinces without the 2% conversion penalty from religion you can get away fine without Religious ideas. You have a guaranteed 3% from Piety which is enough to overcome wrong culture and you can get other bonuses based on ruler stats. I've been looking at this insane Bukhara strat and I'm pretty sure it is actually feasible, there are exactly 13 Rajput provinces and you're left with 12 Kazani provinces after forming Bukhara. Your horde CB lets you take the exact provinces you want so the biggest hurdle once you've got over the Timurids is going to be navigating alliances in order to not get your butt kicked by an Indian gangbang.
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Aug 1, 2015 01:25
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Koramei posted:incidentally (like a few other people, it seems) this Russia talk got me to try a Muscovy game for the first time. Orthodox seems really lovely for a western religion. Even with religious ideas it's taking a long rear end time to convert all this Sunni land. Doesn't help that I keep going for the quick bonus and have my patriarchal authority forever stuck at 0 I guess. I did manage to take Danzig in the first 3 years though; the Teutonic Order was in an alliance with the Livonian Order so I just declared on them the moment I saw Poland gunning for it and rushed my armies to camp on the province as fast as humanly possible. It did take my Poland relations from best buddies to -100 from a single province but I guess that was inevitable. What counts as a long rear end time? Between the +3 from Religious, and the decisions around ADM8-10, just about everything converts super quickly. Not Protestant Reformation quickly off course, but <18 months. You should also pick up DotF if you need the extra missionary, and since it's real unlikely there will be any other Orthodox countries left, you just keep it forever. RabidWeasel posted:insane Bukhara strat Go on... PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Aug 1, 2015 |
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Aug 1, 2015 01:36
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Nearly all the major religions either have a whole bunch of missionary strength bonuses or a bunch of tolerance bonuses, plus there's the +2% from an inquisitor (incidentally I just realised I haven't been able to get one yet this campaign, that might be why I'm having such a pain). Unless you're expanding massively into Muslim lands as a non-Muslim, I don't think religious is usually necessary at all. As a multi-ethnic empire I'd probably go humanist 4 times out of 5.
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Aug 1, 2015 01:37
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You don't take religious for the missionary strength modifiers. You take it for the CB and the policies and the culture conversion bonuses. The strength bonuses are useful even as muslims expanding into non-muslim territory though. It can still take 30+ months to convert any worthwhile land with only a % or two strength modifier.
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Aug 1, 2015 01:44
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I just started a Muscovy game, because I've never actually played one, and I noticed that in 1444 your Kazimov province starts off Sunni and also part of the Tatar culture group, which includes every culture between you and the Caspian. Rather than having to deal with wrong-culture wrong-religion provinces that I can't convert, I just released Qasim out of Kazimov. Between Qasim and Perm, the Golden Horde and Kazan turned into a bunch of vassal land. At some point I'll finish religious ideas and annex/convert those lands, but until then, I would say they aren't even worth bothering with unless you've got a vassal to give them to.
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Aug 1, 2015 01:48
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Whoever mentioned that Perm takes religious ideas is my hero. They convert provinces like a bad rear end. Been feeding them the entire steppe and they are doing well. Now why Ryazan takes espionage ideas first in my game is beyond me...
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Aug 1, 2015 02:13
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RE: religious/humanist I'm doing a game as a Zoroastrian nation, so I took both Things have been going pretty well...
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Aug 1, 2015 02:15
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Larry Parrish posted:You don't take religious for the missionary strength modifiers. You take it for the CB and the policies and the culture conversion bonuses. those are all nice things for sure but not more necessary than stuff you could get out of lots of other idea groups. PittTheElder posted:What counts as a long rear end time? Between the +3 from Religious, and the decisions around ADM8-10, just about everything converts super quickly. Not Protestant Reformation quickly off course, but <18 months. You should also pick up DotF if you need the extra missionary, and since it's real unlikely there will be any other Orthodox countries left, you just keep it forever.  and those are my lowest provinces. If I get an inquisitor or someday try actually caring about Patriarchal Authority it'd probably go a whole lot faster to be fair. I've gotten unlucky on the advisor draws even though I keep refreshing them.
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Aug 1, 2015 02:17
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Maybe my memory is being crazy then. I almost never go Patriarchy, but I did a run with it last time just to see how it went. Maybe that's skewing my impression. e: Alright, more like <30 months. Still not that bad, especially with 3 missionaries. e2: I just noticed that doesn't have the non-accepted culture penalty. I don't know what's up with that, I don't think those provinces are Ruthenian, aside from Kursk.  PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Aug 1, 2015 |
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Aug 1, 2015 02:52
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My last Russia game I was religious, defender of the faith, had 100% PA, and ended up conquering Jerusalem, Mecca, Rome, and restoring the Pentarchy. I think I had seven missionaries by the end of the game and could convert every province that wasn't a religious centre in under 12 months.
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Aug 1, 2015 03:08
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I conquered a province that had a papal core on it and released the province but it was protestant so now the pope is protestant and hates me because I'm the wrong religion. Papal state can't change religions so I can't switch them to catholic. Can I edit something in my save to fix this?
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Aug 1, 2015 03:18
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Baronjutter posted:I conquered a province that had a papal core on it and released the province but it was protestant so now the pope is protestant and hates me because I'm the wrong religion. Papal state can't change religions so I can't switch them to catholic. Can I edit something in my save to fix this? God has clearly showed the correct path to follow.
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Aug 1, 2015 03:33
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Tsyni posted:Whoever mentioned that Perm takes religious ideas is my hero. They convert provinces like a bad rear end. Been feeding them the entire steppe and they are doing well. Now why Ryazan takes espionage ideas first in my game is beyond me... Yeah Perm is a great vassal early on. Just keep in mind if you're taking Exploration second that you should diplo-annex Perm fairly quickly then because you don't want them blocking you off from the Siberian regions once you actually have your colonists. Also I think not bumping PA up every chance you get (assuming you can afford the tax penalty) is a pretty big mistake. The bonuses you get for turning it down are nice, but they're temporary and having 2% more missionary strength, -3 unrest, and 33% more manpower in exchange for a cut of your smallest/least important source of income is pretty huge. It may not seem like it when you're bumping it up from 20 to 25 in the early game, but it just makes every game run so much smoother. You have less trouble with unrest (which as Muscovy/Russia is pretty much your biggest concern once you get big enough), you convert quicker for even less unrest/rebellions, and you have enough manpower to keep fighting wars and expanding. That's worth way, way more than the occasional stab bonus or some prestige or MPs.
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Aug 1, 2015 03:47
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I figured it out, I went back to a save before I freed the pope and changed nassau to catholic, The church is restored. I have an empire stretching from Lisbon to Albania and it's the late 1700's so I'm in no mood to convert an empire of that size. Also protestantism never really took much of a hold in europe outside of a few german OPM's and scandinavia.
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Aug 1, 2015 03:48
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Strategy question. What is the best way usually to try and split up a powerful alliance. Playing as England right now and Spain,France, and a powerful Hungary all have me as a rival and are allied. I have Austria allied long term along with Portugal but there is basically no way we can win a land war against the 3 juggernauts. I can probably win a naval fight it would be tough task overall given that I have land possessions that France can take and can negatively influence war score. This is impacting my ability to go after Spain's colonies which I really want. Also the African/Indian/Asian continents are probably best off given to trade companies?
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Aug 1, 2015 04:03
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MikeC posted:Strategy question. What is the best way usually to try and split up a powerful alliance. Playing as England right now and Spain,France, and a powerful Hungary all have me as a rival and are allied. I have Austria allied long term along with Portugal but there is basically no way we can win a land war against the 3 juggernauts. I can probably win a naval fight it would be tough task overall given that I have land possessions that France can take and can negatively influence war score. This is impacting my ability to go after Spain's colonies which I really want. DOW one of their allies that isn't allied to a people you don't want to fight. Alternatively, get into a war on the same side as one and they won't be able to join a war against you for the duration of that war.
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Aug 1, 2015 04:31
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PittTheElder posted:Go on... RabidWeasel posted:Other exploitative-seeming fun stuff: forming Bukhara is based entirely on your country tag and not on culture or anything else so you could feasibly do something like conquer your way down to India, culture shift, then form Bukhara and then form Hindustan; this would leave you as a Muslim tech non-nomadic government with the Horde ideas and Hindustani cultural union. This is I think the only way to have Horde ideas after reforming; otherwise the Kazan and Manchu ideas are similar but not quite as good, though Kazan does get some good poo poo with the earlier core cost reduction and capstone 15% morale.  The proposed Bukhara => Arabia strat is a bit more tricky, at first I thought you could go through Hormuz but I realised that you're going to have gently caress all for a navy so you'd have to conquer your way through Iraq before you can even get to the Bedouin provinces.
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Aug 1, 2015 08:39
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Why would you bother forming Bukhara to reform your government when you could just take administrative like you almost definitely will at some point.
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Aug 1, 2015 08:42
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Need some advice in my Japan game. I have a colonial empire including the Philippines and colonial nations all over the Pacific, giving me 10 (!) merchants. But even in 1687 my finances are lousy - in particular, why is my trade income so low? Basically I'm funnelling all the trade to Japan that I can, and collecting in a couple other spots where I have some trade power. My ideas are exploration, quality, admin, expansion, and offensive.  
Vivian Darkbloom fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Aug 1, 2015 |
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Aug 1, 2015 08:45
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