|
Roche was always an analog to Djikstra. They had the same function, though admittedly Roche isn't as good as his job as Djikstra was in the novels. Iorveth was the Scoia'tael commander from the books as well.
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 22:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 07:22 |
|
|
Manatee Cannon posted:Roche was always an analog to Djikstra. They had the same function, though admittedly Roche isn't as good as his job as Djikstra was in the novels. Well, they have the same function, but Roche is a soldier and Djikstra is a politician.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 22:57
|
|
|
Roche is special forces, way more hands on. Thaler was the spy master. Geralt doesn't bang that many women in the books. That fixture of his character originates in the first Witcher game and every subsequent game has moved away from it more.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 22:58
|
|
|
No, they have the same job. Djikstra got kind of promoted from head of Redania's secret police out of necessity when the king died. Djikstra was very hands on as well until Geralt broke his leg during the coup in the Tower of Gulls.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 22:58
|
|
|
Thaler has the same job as Dijkstra. Roche is not the head of Temerian intelligence, he's commander of the Blue Stripes. That involves a bit of meeting with spies, but he's not the one that organizes all of it. Also his personality isn't particularly like Dijkstra's.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 22:59
|
|
|
Snak posted:So I guess my point is that yes, I think Witcher is fanservicy in general, but not at the expense of the quality of characters and story. It is intended to be entertainment and it is intended for adults. Oh sure, I'll never disagree with that. Fan service isn't necessarily harmful to the quality of a game - I just have an intense dislike of people trying to intellectualize this kind of stuff and paint it as something much deeper than it actually is. A titty shot is still a titty shot at the end of the day. It's akin to the whole minorities-as-succubi-and-demons thing that blew up a couple of times. It's all well and good saying that the Witcher is based on different mythology and marketed towards a different audience than other games, but at the same time I think that's a pretty feeble handwave for any criticism aimed at the game.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 22:59
|
|
|
The Sharmat posted:Thaler has the same job as Dijkstra. Roche is not the head of Temerian intelligence, he's commander of the Blue Stripes. That involves a bit of meeting with spies, but he's not the one that organizes all of it. They don't have to have the same personality to be analogous.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:00
|
|
|
The Sharmat posted:Roche is special forces, way more hands on. Thaler was the spy master. Okay but he bangs at least 2 in The Last Wish and possibly one of Three Jackdaw's Zerrikanian companions in the first 20 pages of Sword of Destiny. So I'm just saying, there's 5 books, and in the first two he's already slept with 3 women, and presumably had slept with more previous to meeting Yen. I mean, he is obviously a horny motherfucker. He's constantly thinking about sex. Not as much as Dandelion, though.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:01
|
|
|
Yeah but when they don't have the same personality or the same job I think the analogy starts to fall apart.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:02
|
|
|
Snak posted:Okay but he bangs at least 2 in The Last Wish and possibly one of Three Jackdaw's Zerrikanian companions in the first 20 pages of Sword of Destiny. So I'm just saying, there's 5 books, and in the first two he's already slept with 3 women, and presumably had slept with more previous to meeting Yen. I mean, he is obviously a horny motherfucker. He's constantly thinking about sex. Not as much as Dandelion, though. The Last wish spans a period of years and most of this doesn't happen on screen. I don't think having sex with three women in as many years classifies you as a horny motherfucker. And when is he constantly thinking about sex? But I guess a tit shot is still a tit shot.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:03
|
|
|
Ending spoilers Does anyone else think it was odd how they killed Crach at the end? What was the point? I already have other things motivating me to kill Eredin so it feels out of place, like they needed to kill someone but he was the only person they could think of
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:05
|
|
|
Swedish Horror posted:Ending spoilers Does anyone else think it was odd how they killed Crach at the end? What was the point? I already have other things motivating me to kill Eredin so it feels out of place, like they needed to kill someone but he was the only person they could think of To make him feel like a threat, probably. What had he actually done on screen at that point other than get chased away by Ciri? He's not even the one that killed Vesemir. The Sharmat posted:Yeah but when they don't have the same personality or the same job I think the analogy starts to fall apart. I already said that it's because they fill a similar role in the narrative, dude. You could argue that Roche and Thaler combine to make Temarian Djikstra, and I wouldn't argue with you, but Roche and Djisktra are similar.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:12
|
|
|
The Sharmat posted:The Last wish spans a period of years and most of this doesn't happen on screen. I don't think having sex with three women in as many years classifies you as a horny motherfucker. And when is he constantly thinking about sex? Well maybe "constantly" thinking about sex wasn't correct. I still maintain that when a character is described multiple times in the same book as thinking about a woman's body, thinking about having sex, or "regretfully" looking away from a naked women, that this is establishing something about the character. Likewise, there are many books that span years and don't describe the protagonists one-night-stands. To get back to a slightly less cumbersome topic, if you recall our discussion about Yennifer several weeks ago, I have a completely different opinion of the character after The Last Wish and the first story in Sword of Destiny. She's like a completely different character than in the game, but I suspect I'll see more of where game Yennifer comes from once I get into the novels. One of the big things in W3 is that it was really hard for me to understand what Geralt was supposed to see in Yen. The impetus for the titular wish is a really great scene and answers that question wonderfully.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:18
|
|
|
The Sharmat posted:The Last wish spans a period of years and most of this doesn't happen on screen. I don't think having sex with three women in as many years classifies you as a horny motherfucker. And when is he constantly thinking about sex? I get the impression that lots of ladies want to have sex with Geralt, and that he sometimes lets them, although he frequently prefers to mope over Yen.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:20
|
|
|
Snak posted:To get back to a slightly less cumbersome topic, if you recall our discussion about Yennifer several weeks ago, I have a completely different opinion of the character after The Last Wish and the first story in Sword of Destiny. She's like a completely different character than in the game, but I suspect I'll see more of where game Yennifer comes from once I get into the novels. I still don't get that because while she's very interesting in those first two stories, I'd think she'd come across as significantly less likeable. Just wait till you read Shard of Ice... But I experienced it all in a different order from you so I'm curious as to your thoughts.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:21
|
|
|
Snak posted:One of the big things in W3 is that it was really hard for me to understand what Geralt was supposed to see in Yen. This was the problem I had with Triss in the first game and why I got a bit irritated that Geralt shacked up with her at the start of Witcher 2. I'm not too keen on games relying on books, etc, to tell us about fairly significant developments between characters; especially if we're simply told, rather than shown, that a relationship exists as described. Geralt's an established character true, but it niggled at me there was such a disconnect between what the game was telling me he felt about Yen/Triss and my own choices within the game.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:22
|
|
|
I didn't like Yennefer in the books until she and Ciri started hanging out. Before then, she and Geralt both act like a couple of teenagers in regards to one another. They do a good job showcasing Yen and Geralt's relationship and past history in TW3 though, at least in my opinion. She's justifiably upset with you over Triss but she always works towards your and Ciri's benefit. That is always her priority in both the novels (well, after Ciri anyway) and the TW3. I liked her a lot in this game. Triss has a really bad start in the novels and TW1 doesn't paint her in a good light, but I can see why people who started with TW2 like her.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:28
|
|
|
I mean, Geralt is a Witcher, which is like a star athlete wearing a sign guaranteeing he won't get you pregnant, and also he's the most sensitive of Witcher, which may not be saying much. As much as the sex in the games is a bit exploitative, it's basically always portrayed positively, as the result of mutual attraction, and in the case of ALL of the one-night-stands, without strings attached. It's kind of sex-positive in the sense that hooking up is portrayed as something that consenting adults do when there's mutual attraction. It's somehow less juvenile than Mass Effect's "get sex as the reward for playing a dating sim". Not gonna lie, I was a little disappointed I didn't find a scene with the twins... edit: The Sharmat posted:I still don't get that because while she's very interesting in those first two stories, I'd think she'd come across as significantly less likeable. Just wait till you read Shard of Ice... Starting part IV of Shard of Ice now... Snak fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Aug 15, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:28
|
|
|
Manatee Cannon posted:I didn't like Yennefer in the books until she and Ciri started hanging out. Before then, she and Geralt both act like a couple of teenagers in regards to one another. I felt that way too but on a re-read Yennefer came out a lot more positive looking to me. Not sure if that's because I understood her character better or foreknowledge of future events affecting how I felt about the character though. And yeah her and Geralt being incredibly lovely at relationships is kinda the whole point of the first two books, before they go through a ton of poo poo and get better. Sword of Destiny does a good job of telling you why Geralt is the way he is. Sadly you don't really get the full picture of how Yennefer became the person she is at the start of the series until like the 6th book. It makes perfect sense when you do get it, though. Also TW2 did a good job showcasing Triss's warts but I guess first impresions count for a lot and if your initial experience with her is the sequence in Flotsam maybe you're more willing to forgive her.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:32
|
|
|
Manatee Cannon posted:They do a good job showcasing Yen and Geralt's relationship and past history in TW3 though, at least in my opinion. She's justifiably upset with you over Triss but she always works towards your and Ciri's benefit. That is always her priority in both the novels (well, after Ciri anyway) and the TW3. I liked her a lot in this game. I really disliked her at first mostly because as I mentioned above the game was trying to tell me Geralt had ~true wuv~ with her, and I felt like the whiny kid being dragged along on a trip he had no interest in, being told to love someone he'd never met before. My opinion changed when I could spend more time with Yen later on in the game but man oh man, it was rough getting there. Even the stuff I saw about her in W2 felt more like vague allusions rather than anything meaningful I as a player could latch onto.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:34
|
|
|
I like how, despite their age and accumulated wisdom, Sorceresses and Witchers often have juvenile behavior, because while they have the knowledge of elders, they haven't really confronted their mortality the same way that aging forces you to. They are basically allowed to be stuck in the the "live fast, die young" phase of their lives because their abilities keep them from aging out of it. Also they never really grew up normally, so... edit: ^I'm with you on that. Unfortunately, just as it started getting good and we got to see Yen and Geralt both interacting with Ciri trying to be parents despite acting like children towards each other up until that point, the game ended.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:37
|
|
|
You really shouldn't take Yennefer and Geralt for being typical of either of their vocations. Though yeah they're typically a bit psychologically stunted in some ways because both witchers and mages tend to have hosed up childhoods.Snak posted:I mean, Geralt is a Witcher, which is like a star athlete wearing a sign guaranteeing he won't get you pregnant, and also he's the most sensitive of Witcher, which may not be That was a drat important quest for her yeah. That said I thought Yennefer was great in the game and if you thought she had no depth and was uninteresting I'm curious what characters you think had depth and were interesting.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:39
|
|
|
The Sharmat posted:That said I thought Yennefer was great in the game and if you thought she had no depth and was uninteresting I'm curious what characters you think had depth and were interesting. The Bloody Baron was interesting, Vesemir, Lambert, and Ciri were interesting. The whole Skellige cast was interesting. I would play Skellige Political Simulator for hundreds of hours. Dijkstra was interesting. Yen was like Jack Baur and just showed up and constantly yelled at people that she knew best and then did whatever she wanted regardless of the consequences. Even if what she did was right, without insight into why she's acting that way, it's not that interesting. It's doubly annoying for this to be the behavior of a character that they guy you're playing as is supposed to have a deep connection to and you have no idea what the gently caress.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:44
|
|
|
poptart_fairy posted:I really disliked her at first mostly because as I mentioned above the game was trying to tell me Geralt had ~true wuv~ with her, and I felt like the whiny kid being dragged along on a trip he had no interest in, being told to love someone he'd never met before. My opinion changed when I could spend more time with Yen later on in the game but man oh man, it was rough getting there. Even the stuff I saw about her in W2 felt more like vague allusions rather than anything meaningful I as a player could latch onto. This is probably true for a lot of people, honestly. Triss has had two games to form a connection with the player, whether they like her or not. Yennefer is someone you've only been told about, but someone telling you you're supposed to like them isn't the same thing as actually forming a connection over time. She's just a name until this game. I think a lot of people write Yennefer off right away in favor of Triss because she isn't nice to you right out the gate like Triss is. Plus most people will go to Skellige much, much later in the game than they'll head to Novigrad. Triss' flaws are made apparent in the games but you don't have any reason to believe Yennefer is a better person until you actually get to spend time with her, and by then it's probably too late.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:44
|
|
|
Snak posted:The Bloody Baron was interesting, Vesemir, Lambert, and Ciri were interesting. The whole Skellige cast was interesting. I would play Skellige Political Simulator for hundreds of hours. Dijkstra was interesting. Yen was like Jack Baur and just showed up and constantly yelled at people that she knew best and then did whatever she wanted regardless of the consequences. Even if what she did was right, without insight into why she's acting that way, it's not that interesting. It's doubly annoying for this to be the behavior of a character that they guy you're playing as is supposed to have a deep connection to and you have no idea what the gently caress. I still don't get it (particularly liking Lambert and not Yennefer, since he's depicted much the same way only whinier, more abrasive, and less proactive) but to each their own I guess. I also never thought Geralt and Yennefer acted like children to each other but I've never gone with Triss in TW3 so maybe it's different. I imagine Yen is mega passive aggressive if you do that. Manatee Cannon posted:Triss' flaws are made apparent in the games but you don't have any reason to believe Yennefer is a better person until you actually get to spend time with her, and by then it's probably too late. Yeah, first impressions. Same reason Roche was much more popular than Iorveth in TW2 days, I think.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:48
|
|
|
Manatee Cannon posted:This is probably true for a lot of people, honestly. Triss has had two games to form a connection with the player, whether they like her or not. Yennefer is someone you've only been told about, but someone telling you you're supposed to like them isn't the same thing as actually forming a connection over time. She's just a name until this game. I think a lot of people write Yennefer off right away in favor of Triss because she isn't nice to you right out the gate like Triss is. Plus most people will go to Skellige much, much later in the game than they'll head to Novigrad. Exactly it. I nearly locked myself into the Triss romance purely because her situation comes up so much earlier and it was easier for me to get to know, and understand, her motivations for everything. She still comes across as a know-it-all idiot but I at least could understand the reasons for why she thought that way. Yen just stomped around a lot and had a go at me for sleeping with someone the plot previously forced Geralt into.  Man, I miss Shani. She didn't come with this kind of baggage.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:48
|
|
|
Did people really not buy that Yennefer's main stake in all this was her daughter?poptart_fairy posted:Man, I miss Shani. She didn't come with this kind of baggage. Shani goes apeshit on Geralt for not handing her a literal magical time bomb because she's completely unqualified to deal with it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:49
|
|
|
The Sharmat posted:Shani goes apeshit on Geralt for not handing her a literal magical time bomb because she's completely unqualified to deal with it. That isn't mandated by the plot. I had Triss give me constant poo poo because I was grooming Shani to take care of the kid, which was at least something I'd had a hand in rather than the game forcing me towards.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:51
|
|
|
Triss was right to give you poo poo. It was a bad decision that the game chose not to punish you for because it was doing some kind of weird dating sim thing at that point.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:52
|
|
|
The Sharmat posted:Triss was right to give you poo poo. It was a bad decision that the game chose not to punish you for because it was doing some kind of weird dating sim thing at that point. I understand and appreciate that entirely hence my posting about it. What's your point?
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:54
|
|
|
That Shani does, in fact, come with baggage.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:55
|
|
|
People just don't know Yennefer. You'd have to read the books to get her full motivation and understand that she isn't just being a monster when she reanimates Skjall's corpse for information about Ciri. They just look at that and think she's a bad person. The subtext is always there but you might not catch it if you don't know what to look for. You might assume she really is just working with Nilfgaard for power and I couldn't honestly blame you for doing so for a fair amount of the game.The Sharmat posted:I also never thought Geralt and Yennefer acted like children to each other but I've never gone with Triss in TW3 so maybe it's different. I imagine Yen is mega passive aggressive if you do that. If you press your luck when she tells you to drop the amnesia argument, she teleports you over the water outside. Though really their relationship is only childish in the books. Like when Geralt and that mage guy almost fight each other to the death over her.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:56
|
|
|
The Sharmat posted:That Shani does, in fact, come with baggage. I said "this kind of baggage", specifically talking about how her relationship with Geralt was not based on things that happened off-screen or in the books.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:56
|
|
|
Clearly Geralt should've gone with Kiera.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:58
|
|
|
Manatee Cannon posted:People just don't know Yennefer. You'd have to read the books to get her full motivation and understand that she isn't just being a monster when she reanimates Skjall's corpse for information about Ciri. They just look at that and think she's a bad person. The subtext is always there but you might not catch it if you don't know what to look for. You might assume she really is just working with Nilfgaard for power and I couldn't honestly blame you for doing so for a fair amount of the game. I don't think most people even try to look for subtext in video games.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:59
|
|
|
The Sharmat posted:I still don't get it (particularly liking Lambert and not Yennefer, since he's depicted much the same way only whinier, more abrasive, and less proactive) but to each their own I guess. I mean, I don't like Lambert, I think he's a douche, but you get to learn about his character's backstory and get a glimpse of why he is that way. That's why I said he was interesting, and that's more than you get for Yen. Basically Yennifer is a major character who is integral to the the story from the opening cutscene, and yet you get less insight into her character than most of the side characters. Even if all of that detail about her character is packed into that quest that I didn't do, that was way too late in the game for it to influence my impression of her.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2015 23:59
|
|
|
poptart_fairy posted:That isn't mandated by the plot. I had Triss give me constant poo poo because I was grooming Shani to take care of the kid, which was at least something I'd had a hand in rather than the game forcing me towards. Triss was right though... I mean yeah her motivations for it were not 100% pure, but the child needed someone who understood magic. Who knows what would have happened if the kid was left to his own devices with all that power? He might even have turned out to be a genocidal maniac with a messiah complex.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2015 00:00
|
|
|
fspades posted:Triss was right though... I mean yeah her motivations for it were not 100% pure, but the child needed someone who understood magic. Who knows what would have happened if the kid was left to his own devices with that power? He might even have turned out to be a genocidal maniac with a messiah complex. I never said Triss was wrong, I just appreciate that conflict with a potential romantic interest came from actions I could see and understand rather than something else which was hoisted on me off-screen.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2015 00:01
|
|
|
It is hard to make a game with a bunch of characters that already know each other and not have them explain their life stories to one another. That's why Geralt had amnesia to begin with. I like the way they handled it here, but people that don't read the books are a little in the dark in some things. People like Djikstra just pop in and you're told you have a history with them, and to their credit they do a good job of showing how they feel towards one another without expositioning, but it does lose some of its effect when you don't actually know their history yourself. I prefer it when they assume some things because it avoids weird and unrealistic dialogue. It's just that people without that information are left a little out in the cold.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2015 00:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 07:22 |
|
|
They put a lot of effort into body language and facial animations but I guess people aren't used to paying attention to those things in a video game. I mean using the necromancy example above, I think its kind of hard even without the books to view Yennefer as monster there. The game makes the stakes clear and her face shows she feels fairly miserable after its over. But apparently that didn't register for a lot of people judging from the reaction.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2015 00:13
|
|